[ANN] ChipMixer.com - Bitcoin mixer / Bitcoin tumbler - mixing reinvented

[dkbit98]

I can't help but notice that you, too, are being paid by ChipMixer. This doesn't mean your points are useless, but you could at least tone down the ad hominems & emotionally defensive behaviour. It comes across as paid shill-y, even though it may well not be.

Sorry but I didn't start this silly crusade against anyone, you are the one making wild theories and I just wrote my honest reply.
Try to be objective when you are writing something on twitter, and don't just accuse others for being emotional when you are prime example of that.
If I want to be honest looking at your previous posts on twitter, you are attacking just about anyone who comes up in headlines, so you are projecting this on everyone else.

Can anything in theory be a secret government project?
Sure it can, maybe government even participated in creation of Bitcoin in one way or another, but it's more likely they are involved with all the shitcoin projects as a preparation for their CBDC crap.
Scam Bankman was one of the biggest donator to democratic party and Joe Biden campaign, maybe you should think about that more when you are looking for connection with governments and money laundering.

The Tornado Cash contract itself is under OFAC sanctions. Any sort of interaction with the mixer is now a legal risk. Similar measures could have been put in place for known ChipMixer deposits given their similar user profile (not condoning this, just pointing it out), but the government really doesn't seem to care, which was one of my points. The contract itself can't be doxed.

Ethereum shitcoin is already OFAC compliant and they already have 70% of their blocks OFAC compliant, so you can't compare that crap with Bitcoin, and it doesn't really matter what Tornado is doing.

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[FatManTerra]

If ChipMixer is indeed a honeypot, then the data they gather wouldn't be used to catch small or even medium-sized criminals.

I'm afraid that the $40m hack must have been the biggest theft with ChipMixer involved.

Off the top of my head I can think of the Ronin bridge hackers ($73m) and the Binance hackers ($80m) although I'm sure there are more. The information you are basing your points on is incorrect.

Sorry all, didn't mean to spark a heated discussion - I'll take the discourse back to Twitter. Happy to answer questions there or via DM.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Binance hackers

That's the one I was talking about. More than $40m then.

Sorry all, didn't mean to spark a heated discussion - I'll take the discourse back to Twitter. Happy to answer questions there or via DM.

Seriously, why don't you just open a thread here? This is the place where ChipMixer originates, so you're going to get some satisfactory responses directly from those who advertise it. Twitter is shitposting platform. The fact that you can't write more than 280 characters in a single reply says a lot.

We should also not talk via DM. The issue you're raising fits public talk.

[n0nce]

What could they say to make you think otherwise, though? It's neither possible to prove for anyone here that you or I are or are not state actors, either, right?

Fair question. I'm not entirely sure. Maybe something like "we are not related to or employed by any world government, our extremely high start-up capital came from XYZ source, we made X in donations this year, we think we have never been investigated or indicted or admonished by LE because of XYZ..." Doesn't really matter, it's just a theory anyway.

That's exactly what an undercover state actor would say, though, right?
Besides; providing more info about themselves, how they are funded and whatnot, could dramatically increase their chance of getting busted like Tornado.

You presented CoinJoin as an alternative; how do you know the people running the coordinator aren't state actors? In case they make less money than ChipMixer and don't have the funds to finance a signature campaign, it could just mean it's an even better undercover operation, that is simply 'better disguised', no?
Especially if we have a look; one CoinJoin company is using blockchain analysis companies to sniff into its users' activities and potentially freezing their funds already. Doesn't it seem much more likely that these guys could be connected / pressured by / used by a government; instead of ChipMixer?

What I'm trying to say is: the whole argument / discussion is pointless. Waste of everyone's time, really. You can't prove or disprove any of this.

~

I can't help but notice that you, too, are being paid by ChipMixer. This doesn't mean your points are useless, but you could at least tone down the ad hominems & emotionally defensive behaviour. It comes across as paid shill-y, even though it may well not be.

No; this is just a combination of the 'harsh tone' I mentioned earlier and dkbit98's unique character. We love him just the way he is, though!

Sorry for any inconvenience I may have caused to anyone in the thread.

No need to apologize. On Bitcointalk everyone can share their opinion!
It's just.. Correlation doesn't prove causation and there can be alternative, equally as likely, explanations for all of the points you've raised. Which in my eyes, makes your 'theory' merely a relatively unfounded accusation.

We should also not talk via DM. The issue you're raising fits public talk.

I agree, 100%. The forum format also makes it infinitely better suited for such discussions, because you have enough space and formatting options to embed links, sources, images and quotes in an easy to read post.

[dkbit98]

You presented CoinJoin as an alternative; how do you know the people running the coordinator aren't state actors? In case they make less money than ChipMixer and don't have the funds to finance a signature campaign, it could just mean it's an even better undercover operation, that is simply 'better disguised', no?

I am sure some coordinators are operated by state actors, and didn't government also created Tor network and people still use it for all kind of reasons.
Government is probably spying on people who use Tor, they spy on people who use centralized exchanges, and they spy just about anything they can, it's what they do best.
Some people would also question bitcointalk forum and how they have funds for keeping everything in order for years, but think about how much was Bitcoin price 10 years ago and how much was the price on top.

[DireWolfM14]

What could they say to make you think otherwise, though? It's neither possible to prove for anyone here that you or I are or are not state actors, either, right?

Fair question. I'm not entirely sure. Maybe something like "we are not related to or employed by any world government, our extremely high start-up capital came from XYZ source, we made X in donations this year, we think we have never been investigated or indicted or admonished by LE because of XYZ..." Doesn't really matter, it's just a theory anyway.

That's exactly what an undercover state actor would say, though, right?

One would think, but in some countries (the USA for sure) that would render any evidence collected by an undercover agent inadmissible in a court of law.  If the undercover agent had no intention of using evidence he collects for prosecution, then they can lie through their teeth about LE affiliation and use the evidence to justify further investigations that collect evidence in an admissible manner.  I'm not so naive as to think that hasn't happened.

Regardless, your point is clear.  Any denial by ChipMixer wouldn't change the minds of those who are convinced.

Besides; providing more info about themselves, how they are funded and whatnot, could dramatically increase their chance of getting busted like Tornado.

That was the point I tried to make in a previous post; even disclosing the amount of their startup budget could narrow the pool suspected affiliates.  Disclosing the source of the funds would narrow the pool even more.  The best advice to give to folks who run a mixer is to disclose as little as possible about themselves, or their funding.

What I'm trying to say is: the whole argument / discussion is pointless. Waste of everyone's time, really. You can't prove or disprove any of this.

And that's the best way to sum it up.  If ChipMixer wants to stay in business they're best course of action is not to try to disprove FatMan's allegations.  Any attempt is likely to disclose sensitive information that will eventually cause the demise of the service, and more than likely, indictments for those behind it.

No; this is just a combination of the 'harsh tone' I mentioned earlier and dkbit98's unique character. We love him just the way he is, though!

Lol, we do love dkbit98 just as he is, harsh tones and all.  To avoid those harsh tones don't shill for Microsoft or Ledger, and don't bash on ChipMixer.  If you can avoid those missteps, he can be a real sweetheart.  

Sorry for any inconvenience I may have caused to anyone in the thread.

I agree with those who've said there's nothing for which you need to apologize.  This forum can be a pretty harsh environment, and anyone doing business here needs to be armored with the thickest of skins.  And realistically the discussion is perfectly welcome here.  A lot of us have had experience with ChipMixer, and we're more than happy to engage with their detractors.  It's also beneficial that you've given ChipMixer himself the opportunity to respond to your allegations by posting here.  It reminds me of that old saying; there's no such thing as bad press.

[NotATether]

If ChipMixer is indeed a honeypot, then the data they gather wouldn't be used to catch small or even medium-sized criminals. It's about getting a few big fish - the robberies that are in the hundreds of millions.

Well sorry, but if any of that was indeed being done at CM then the billion-dollar megascammer Sam Bankman-Fried would be in jail by now.

The fact that even Coinbase/Binance CEOs and Elon Musk are wondering out loud why he's not locked up yet tells us something; that if Chipmixer were a honeypot as you say it is, the feds would already have a paper trail of some "hacked" FTX funds to present as court evidence.

They wouldn't sit on their ass and wait for more big fish to come, especially since big companies and US corporations are among the scammed users of FTX.

[DireWolfM14]

megascammer Sam Bankman-Fried would be in jail by now.

At the risk of going off-topic I think there are a lot of complex reasons why the Mini-Madoff hasn't been charged with any crimes, not the least of which is that this particular megascammer is a megadoner to the megascam more commonly known as the Democratic Party.

[dkbit98]

Lol, we do love dkbit98 just as he is, harsh tones and all.  To avoid those harsh tones don't shill for Microsoft or Ledger, and don't bash on ChipMixer.  If you can avoid those missteps, he can be a real sweetheart.  

I think you probably fall on all of this categories, using wiNd0ws, leDgEr and vouching that FatManTerra as a ''reasonable guy'' so much that you helped him with his bet and you get paid for that
Look I don't mind anyone attacking and saying anything against ChipMixer, but I will say what I think without sugar coating it.
I don't get paid anything for not liking ledger and wiNd0ws, so the argument that I answered someone for financial reasons is obviously silly.
If someone wants to talk about Chipmixer, he first needs to use it or at least do a solid research so we can have discussion about it, but hey it's much easier to block people on twatter when you don't like what you hear ...

[DireWolfM14]

I think you probably fall on all of this categories, using wiNd0ws, leDgEr

Although I was speaking from personal experience, you're not quite right.  I do like Windows, and being a mechanical engineer leaves me little choice but to have my workstation set up with Windows regardless of my feelings.  But I can't recall ever promoting or suggesting that I like Ledger, and I've certainly never bashed ChipMixer.  So you're one out of three so far.

and vouching that FatManTerra as a ''reasonable guy'' so much that you helped him with his bet and you get paid for that

Has he demonstrated anything other than being a reasonable guy in your opinion?  Just because you and I disagree with him about one specific subject (or more) doesn't necessarily make him unreasonable.  And, I can assure you that my business dealings with him have had zero affect on my opinion regarding this subject, or any other that he and I may agree or disagree on.

What I do see is you starting to become unreasonable yourself, as you often do when people disagree with you.  Don't take things so personally when people express opinions that differ from yours.  It's a very common thing to happen, and getting worked up over it isn't healthy.  Not to mention, when you do take on those "harsh tones" people are likely to tune you out, and your message ends up having the opposite of it's intended affect.  In this case it's probably contributed to derailing a discussion that is actually healthy to have.

Anyway, I apologize to all who had to read these two off-topic posts.  I won't engage in this here anymore.  @dkbit98, if you choose to respond to this post please do so in the Reputation board or feel free to send me a PM.

[NotATether]

megascammer Sam Bankman-Fried would be in jail by now.

At the risk of going off-topic I think there are a lot of complex reasons why the Mini-Madoff hasn't been charged with any crimes, not the least of which is that this particular megascammer is a megadoner to the megascam more commonly known as the Democratic Party.

Well that would be illegal then on the part of the politicians to take "bribes" from someone to prevent legal action against him.

I believe it's more because the paper trail hasn't been established which is required to make the charges stick. Bahamas, not caring about any campaign donations, would quickly put him in jail with that info to avoid tarnishing their own image.

[arabspaceship123]

If ChipMixer is indeed a honeypot, then the data they gather wouldn't be used to catch small or even medium-sized criminals. It's about getting a few big fish - the robberies that are in the hundreds of millions. If every $20m or $40m hack was pursued using privileged data, people would catch on pretty fast and the honeypot would become worthless

Chipmixer isn't a honeypot it would've been discovered if suspicions arose. There's a prospect they're keeping parts of data. Who's seen their behind the scenes work? We don't know if they're doing it but it's trusted so why'd you hint that?

May I request that future questions or concerns about the theory be directed to me via DM either here or on Twitter? While I have thought this through carefully and likely have explanations for all of your concerns or rebuttals, I'd prefer not to turn this thread into a back and forth about ChipMixer being a honeypot, because ultimately it's just a theory and it probably shouldn't be discussed at length in their official business thread.

Why's the theory important? If you don't want to have discussions at length here you're able to make fresh threads developed on your theory.
 

[agentF]

Thumbs up for ChipMixer, using it for years, best service, never had a single problem.

[digaran]

Thumbs up for ChipMixer, using it for years, best service, never had a single problem.

Chipmonk (chipmixer) has been here for years working fine without any problem, I think by now is obvious that chipmixer is the trustworthy mixer in crypoverse, meaning they are not going to steal your funds, however I wouldn't suggest sending more than 10 btc at a time, but you could mix thousands of coins using their service in a single day, a feat which is near impossible for others to accomplish. Hence the suspicion of them cooperating with the law in a way, which ofcourse is a good thing if you ask me, because the US gov can catch out of the circle perpetrators.
Meaning they could catch the *terrorists which are not on their payroll. That way we only have to worry about the state hired terroeists, at least we face a known enemy in this way.

*political, financial, governmental, brainwashed idiots.

[themossinator]

hello, really interesting site  - would you split chips multiple times to aid privacy? And would you leave chips for a while before withdrawing? The FAQ does not seem to open in TOR browser, thank you

[jackg]

would you split chips multiple times to aid privacy?

If you had multiple people to send funds to then this makes sense (and withdrawing 4 equal sized smaller chips compared with 1 big chip is obviously going to do better to hide the trace between the funds you deposited and withdrew - especially if you withdraw at different times).

If you're paying for multiple things or multiple people, it might also be useful for hiding the link between you and them (especially if you're paying them different amounts for a similar service or something).

And would you leave chips for a while before withdrawing?

The general recommendation I've seen from research on this is 2-7 days normally delivers maximum privacy at hiding the link between your deposits and withdrawals.

[themossinator]

would you split chips multiple times to aid privacy?

If you had multiple people to send funds to then this makes sense (and withdrawing 4 equal sized smaller chips compared with 1 big chip is obviously going to do better to hide the trace between the funds you deposited and withdrew - especially if you withdraw at different times).

If you're paying for multiple things or multiple people, it might also be useful for hiding the link between you and them (especially if you're paying them different amounts for a similar service or something).

And would you leave chips for a while before withdrawing?

The general recommendation I've seen from research on this is 2-7 days normally delivers maximum privacy at hiding the link between your deposits and withdrawals.

thank you!

[LoyceV]

The FAQ does not seem to open in TOR browser

The FAQ works with Tor Browser's Security Level "Safer" or "Standard". With Tor settings on "Safest", you get this:

Only allows website features required for static sites and basic services. These changes affect images, media, and scripts.

So here's the FAQ:

Frequently Asked Questions

General Questions

How does deposit work?
ChipMixer creates Bitcoin addresses and funds them with specific sizes. These are chips with 0.001 BTC, 0.002 BTC, 0.004 BTC and so on till 8.192 BTC. When you deposit your Bitcoins, you receive same amount in chips.
For example you deposit 0.112 BTC and you receive 0.064 + 0.032 + 0.016 chips. Each chip was funded before your deposit, so there is no link between them and your deposit on blockchain. They are already anonymous.

Minimum deposit is 0.001 BTC - lowest chip size. If you deposit less then you have to deposit missing amount to receive a chip.
Second minimum deposit is 0.002 BTC. If you deposit between 0.001 and 0.002 BTC you will receive only 1 mBTC chip and rest will be autodonated.

If you deposit 0.1234 BTC (123.4 mBTC) you will receive 123 mBTC chips. 0.4 mBTC will be autodonated.

Are you using Segwit now?
Yes, Segwit usage is over 70% which makes non-Segwit inputs less common.

Deposit addresses are now Segwit bech32.

New chips are Segwit bech32 but you may still get some old chips.

Why my Segwit chips are empty?
They may look empty for your wallet but they are not.

Is your wallet Segwit-compatible? If not then you cannot access them with it.

If you are using Electrum then you have to add prefix "p2wpkh:" before each private key displayed at step 3. You can also click at "Import to Electrum" button for easier import.

What can I do with chips?
You can split big chip into two small ones ie. 0.064 BTC chip into two 0.032 BTC chips.

You can merge two small same-sized chips into big one ie. two 0.032 BTC chips into 0.064 BTC chip.

You can donate a chip to pay for our service. If you only have big chips, you can split them before donating.

Finally, you can withdraw a chip or all chips. This will reveal their private keys you can import into your Bitcoin wallet.

Why should I use split/merge function?
To add random element into mix. Let's say you've sent 0.52 BTC You have received one 0.512 BTC chip and one 0.008 BTC. Blockchain analysis can prove that one of 0.512 BTC chips originating from here is yours. Since you can use split/merge, nobody knows if you've withdrawn big or small chips. It is not required to use, but existence of this option increases your privacy.

Why should I use donate function?
Donate allows you to change possible output value. Even if blockchain analysis may assume you will receive permutation of chips, they cannot predict how much you've donated. As with split / merge, you don't have to use it - existence of this option increases your privacy.

What fee do you take? How much does it cost?
We use Pay what you want as pricing strategy. It mean you set how much value our service is to you.

You may split chips into size you wish to donate.

Chip questions

Why chip values are so weird? 1.024 BTC? Why not 1 BTC?
We wanted to have a lot of chip sizes and to easily split/merge them. if you start with 1 BTC and you split it, your minimal chip is 0.015625 BTC which seems even weirder.

But 1.024 BTC is so uncommon that everyone will know I've used this mixer!
After a while it will get more common, because you won't even need to use mixer to anonymize your coins. Just split them into tokens and they look exactly like chips.

I really, really want 1 BTC chip!
You are in luck! We have introduced commonize function which will swap your weird looking 1.024 BTC chip into 1 BTC chip and weird looking 0.512 BTC into 0.5 BTC.

Using this action will cost you the weird part of chip which is around 2% fee.

Do you know withdrawn private key?
Sadly, yes, we have created them and as long as two people knows private key, either of them can move funds. When you withdraw a chip, you receive a copy of private key encrypted on the mixer's server. You are free to sweep it yourself, ask us to send it to your address or keep it on chip for a while. Only the last option keeps your funds vunerable to our dishonesty, but it also extends your privacy. If you sweep funds from chip in first 12h after your input, you receive same privacy as you would get from standard mixer. If you trust us (as you already did when you sent coins into mixer) and spend chip when you need it, then you achive maximum privacy you can get.

Privacy questions

Why withdrawal to private key?
After you've received private key, you can spend them right away without waiting for our transaction. But that's not all. Since your withdrawal is not visible on blockchain, it looks like your chip was moved a few days before your deposit. Time Travel! Third, less spectacular element this method gives you is that you decide when to move those coins next. Few days? Few seconds? Who knows, you are not encumbered with our solution. Fourth, when you are in a hurry, you can set higher fee to have your transaction included in first block. It's your money after all.

How long do you keep logs?
Your session lasts for 7 days. After that, your session and all its data will be removed. You can also destroy your session before time is up. We keep statistical data ie. how much was donated.

Fungibility? Why would I care?
Let's hear the expert:

First of all I was going to explain what we mean by fungibility before bitcoin and ecash. It's an old legal concept in fact, about paper currency. It's the idea that a one ten dollar note is the same as any other ten dollar note. If you receive a note that was involved in a theft, 10 transactions ago, and the police investigate the theft, they have no right to remove the ten dollar note from your pocket. It's not your fault that it was involved in a previous crime. And so bank notes actually have serial numbers, so it would be possible for a stolen note to be traced back to you.

This first arose, there was a 17th century court case where a wealthy merchant sent a couple of high-value bank notes to a colleague in the post and they never arrived. Before he sent them, he was quite paranoid that they would get stolen. He wrote down the serial numbers and made a mark on them. Sure enough they didn't arrive, so he put in a complaint with the bank, and evenutally the notes turned up at the bank. He tried to get the bank to return the notes to his ownership. The courts sided with the bank. Their reason was that if notes could be returned to their original owner after a theft, it would damage confidence in currency and it would be bad for business, the currency would become unusable because every time you received the paper note you would have to look in the newspaper whether it was reported stolen, or you would have the risk of it being taken, or you would have to rush to the bank to deposit it so that it was the bank's problem.(...)

Then we arrive at this problem of taint tracing. Because it's not very private, some people took an interest in tracing coins and I think the motivation was that there's a number of high-profile thefts of coins from exchanges and other businesses, and that's a problem for those businesses and they went out of businss because of it. Some people would like to put distance between themselves and coins that were used in illicit use. There is a law that says that currency is fungible, but because you can somewhat tell where a coin was used before, people started to care. Coin validation proposed to offer as a service to trace coins and try to give you a rating about how the history of the coin from your point of view and to offer that as a service to businesses. I think this could be quite dangerous because it goes back to that 17th century court case where now you could receive a coin that is perfectly valid at the time that you receive it, but a few weeks later a crime is uncovered and now your coin is tainted. So if this coin validation service is advicing many of the merchants where you would want to spend your coin at, it's tainted and now the merchant would refuse to accept your coin. That's a strange experience for you; you're holding a coin that you might have to sell at a discount to get rid of it. The aggregate effect of this might create a run on the bitcoin price. So it reopens this long-set legal principle that currency or currency units are all equal.

http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/bitcoin-adam3us-fungibility-privacy/

Other Questions

What will happen if I send less than lowest chip?
Since we don't have chips lower than 0.001 BTC, your deposit will be treated as donation. Be aware that if you send 0.0015 BTC, you will receive one 0.001 BTC chip. Sending 0.0015 BTC twice will result in two 0.001 BTC chips.

How much time do I have to send input transaction?
You have 7 days to deposit, mix and withdraw private keys. You can extend it for another 7 days if your input transaction is stuck in mempool.

What are vouchers?
Every other mixer takes one big input and returns few smaller ones. This is good for privacy because inputs and outputs are harder to link, but it is bad for fees. While using ChipMixer, you can always deposit non-withdrawn chips and receive voucher code. When you redeem it, you will get the same amount back and you can use multiple voucher codes. This allows you to make many unconnected deposits and withdraw one big 4.096 BTC chip.

What is a signed receipt?
Our goal is to make Bitcoin value independent of its blockchain history. Some governments and corporations wants to invalidate its value by claiming they are connected to something immoral like gambling. Every time you withdraw from ChipMixer, we give you cryptographically signed receipt that proves you have received those funds from us. Since the disconnection of history is proven, there can be no loss of value.

Note: I copied the FAQ today, so if you're reading this post (much) later, the information may be outdated. Always check the original site for the latest version.

[NotATether]

The FAQ does not seem to open in TOR browser

The FAQ works with Tor Browser's Security Level "Safer" or "Standard". With Tor settings on "Safest", you get this:

Only allows website features required for static sites and basic services. These changes affect images, media, and scripts.

Well, of course it won't work with that setting, because it turns off all JavaScript.

It's pretty hard to run an interactive TOR website without using JavaScript, if not impossible (there's just TorShop, but honestly, who develops with PHP anymore?)

[themossinator]

thank you Loyce and NotATether, forgot I had javascript off