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Author Topic: [ANN] Bitcoin Cash - Pro on-chain scaling - Cheaper fees  (Read 648827 times)
jianxinss
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December 16, 2017, 06:58:46 AM
 #11461

On December 15 the largest bitcoin payment processor in the world, Bitpay,
announced it will now process payments for multiple blockchains.
The first decentralized currency Bitpay has opted to utilize will be bitcoin cash.
Bitpay has made an announcement that’s sure to please bitcoin cash (BCH) supporters as the firm has announced BCH payment processing. This means Bitpay’s merchant invoices and card load ups can be paid in bitcoin cash as soon as the company finishes integration.
more info: https://news.bitcoin.com/bitpay-plans-to-use-bitcoin-cash-for-payment-invoices-and-debit-loads/
On the good news about applications, if BCH can make a breakthrough in payment applications, there will be an advantage in all digital money sectors
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Make sure you back up your wallet regularly! Unlike a bank account, nobody can help you if you lose access to your BTC.
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December 16, 2017, 08:24:47 AM
 #11462

What do you think about the growth of the block size in the last days?

https://fork.lol/blocks/size

Great. Bigger realized blocks = greater use = greater utility.

Meh, a few spike gets you all excited? When I look at the chart below, the average block size for Bitcoin Core at it's measly ~ 1.05 MB is still outpacing BCH.

Hmm. 'All excited' may be an overstatement. I'm just saying that bigger is better. Manifestly.

Bitcoin Core better hope that realized Bitcoin Cash block sizes stay small. For should they exceed on average, that would demonstrate that world+dog is getting more utility out of Bitcoin Cash than it is out of Bitcoin Core. And you know what that means...

Adoption is important but a few spikes in KB per block is not the best measure of it. Number of nodes is still quite steady imo.

Bitcoin Cash is not going to have a lot of full nodes if things go their way. In order to scale anywhere close to Visa, on chain, as appears to be their goal, a enterprise would need access to equipment capable of storing at least 56 TB of data per year. Probably at least quadruple that, since you want to properly index the data and have proper back ups. A casual user would need to run an SPV client.

For the umpteenth time - Bitcoin Cash has no reason to support Visa-scale transaction volume until such time as demand for transactions reaches Visa scale (is that a tautology?). If we somehow hit that next year, I'll be more than happy to store 56 TB of data that year. Of course, even in the most wildly optimistic scenario, Visa-scale demand is still several years off.

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.

I've been convicted of heresy. Convicted by a mere known extortionist. Read my Trust for details.
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December 16, 2017, 08:41:46 AM
 #11463

link that shows SDR's are valued at $42.22 per troy ounce of internationally earmarked gold.  link: https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/bulletin/1208assets.htm
still doesn't tell us what an SDR is.. Wink

Here is some allegory on the power of a clearing house.  Add in pure fiat and any economy can be turned around in a matter of weeks!

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December 16, 2017, 08:49:03 AM
 #11464

BCH is not moving up even if dream market and bitpay accepts BCH, which is quite weird. When ltc was accepted by steam, the price made 4x pump, when will BCH have another 4x pump?

It's not going to pump. BTC is pumped (not BCC) because of Tether and banks. BCC doesn't have that momentum behind it. HODL BTC until the day it nearly crashes then buy as much BCC as possible.
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December 16, 2017, 08:50:41 AM
 #11465

     After watching this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SJm2ep3X_M&feature=youtu.be
I have come to the conclusion that on-chain scaling is indeed feasible. My previous objections were that it takes pools too long to verify transactions. Therefore, 1GB blocks would result in many empty blocks being mined.

I see no scenario where that would be a consequence. Can you explain? For that matter, how does one quantify 'too many empty blocks'? As long as all transactions are processed with reasonable alacrity, what does the block fullness matter?

Quote
However, I still have misgivings about 1 GB blocks since this would require a node to have the storage capacity of over 50tb per year. 

Other than to repeat that we will not consume that much storage until there is actual demand for it, I would like to point out the 50 TB of storage -- today -- costs less than 0.1 BTC (~$1650 USD at standard retail).

Quote
At this time, I believe this would cause a barrier to entry for small start ups that require a full node be run. (New exchanges, information services, mining pools etc.)
 
If a startup can't lose 0.1 BTC in the noise of its annual CapEx budget, it is likely to be a non-entity anyhow.

Quote
     My general view on Segwit. It appears to have solved the transaction malleability problem. However, to the layman, such as myself, it appears to be A Rube Goldberg machine kind of way to solve the problem.

I am glad you see the unwarranted complexity. There may be some validity to not hashing across the signature*. However, trying to introduce it as a soft fork creates a mass of technical debt.

*OTOH, there may not. "We define an electronic coin as a chain of digital signatures" - S Nakamoto, the Bitcoin whitepaper

Quote
I am not convinced that there is indeed a vulnerability that allows miners to steal your segwit coins. A white hat demonstration of this attack on a testnet would be required to convince me otherwise. Naturally a black hat demonstration on the mainnet would convince me too, but would not be ideal.

What's to misunderstand? A miner operating by the old rules sees a segwit transaction as an anyonecanspend transaction. Accordingly, that miner can spend the output to himself, should he be successful in mining the block. Of course, he would still need to get the other miners to extend his chain. But with enough value caught up in active transactions, there is an incentive for the miners to collude thusly. It may not come to pass, but it may. With Core adamant that they always act to vilify and marginalize the mining community, is it really that farfetched that such may come to pass?

Quote
   My general view on Lightning Network: It does appear as a viable solution to solve the scaling issue. However, to the layman, it appears to be a Rube Goldberg machine kind of way to solve the problem. I am not a coder, but it seems the Bitcore Core and Blockstream team are more interested in doing coding gymnastics and showing off their skills and not applying the KISS principal at all.

Again, agreed. Devs gotta dev.

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.

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December 16, 2017, 09:05:42 AM
 #11466


What's to misunderstand? A miner operating by the old rules sees a segwit transaction as an anyonecanspend transaction. Accordingly, that miner can spend the output to himself, should he be successful in mining the block. Of course, he would still need to get the other miners to extend his chain. But with enough value caught up in active transactions, there is an incentive for the miners to collude thusly. It may not come to pass, but it may. With Core adamant that they always act to vilify and marginalize the mining community, is it really that farfetched that such may come to pass?


6 “Will not all of them taunt him with ridicule and scorn, saying, “ ‘Woe to him who piles up stolen goods and makes himself wealthy by extortion! How long must this go on?’ 7 Will not your creditors suddenly arise? Will they not wake up and make you tremble? Then you will become their prey. 8 Because you have plundered many nations, the peoples who are left will plunder you. For you have shed human blood; you have destroyed lands and cities and everyone in them.


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December 16, 2017, 09:12:33 AM
 #11467

Nexus...

You seem to be confused. This thread is dedicated to discussion of Bitcoin Cash.

Begone, foul apparition!

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.

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December 16, 2017, 09:48:51 AM
 #11468

I'm always amazed at how fast changes happen in the crypto space. I mean, it's truly light speed!

today, ALL market fundamentals are pointing to a rise in BCH and likely a drop in BTC:
 * BTC fees have gone parabolic (https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-median_transaction_fee.html#1y)
 * BTC mempool is maxxed and hasn't dropped below 100MB for weeks, rendering it almost unusable
 * BCH adoption is very rapidly coming online, BTC adoption continues to decline
 * BCH has plenty of room to appreciate, while BTC feels topped out and overbought
 * Roger Ver interview on CNBC and the host agrees with him that BCH is the only way forward

Gentlemen, history is being made, right here, right now.

If Chicago wants to trade futures on a useless crypto, fine by me. I'll stick with coins that WORK.

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December 16, 2017, 09:50:41 AM
 #11469

I'm always amazed at how fast changes happen in the crypto space. I mean, it's truly light speed!

today, ALL market fundamentals are pointing to a rise in BCH and likely a drop in BTC:
 * BTC fees have gone parabolic (https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-median_transaction_fee.html#1y)
 * BTC mempool is maxxed and hasn't dropped below 100MB for weeks, rendering it almost unusable
 * BCH adoption is very rapidly coming online, BTC adoption continues to decline
 * BCH has plenty of room to appreciate, while BTC feels topped out and overbought
 * Roger Ver interview on CNBC and the host agrees with him that BCH is the only way forward

Gentlemen, history is being made, right here, right now.

If Chicago wants to trade futures on a useless crypto, fine by me. I'll stick with coins that WORK.


Don't hold your breath, you might turn blue.

classicsucks
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December 16, 2017, 09:59:19 AM
 #11470

Does Bitcoin Cash have its place on the cryptomarket? For sure, it's a decent transactional currency. A store of value? Not so, it's much more centralized than Bitcoin Core - the only team working on it is Ver's, Bitcoin.com.
Do I have a problem with that? - Yes, I do. Roger Ver vouched for the solvency of Mt.Gox, Craig S. Wright lied about him being the creator of Bitcoin, Gavin Andresen quarrels that he was outed of Bitcoin development for consensus reasons (the same Andresen admittedly contacted the FBI before Satoshi left). What other strong developers has Bitcoin Cash? A few people of Bitcoin Unlimited, that anyone barely knows. Bitcoin ABC and Bitcoin XT were to the same extent Roger Ver's "developer communities", existent on the Internet, but not on conferences or IRL.

Forget about personalities, that's what got BTC into trouble in the first place. I remember Maxwell being such an insufferable twat here and elsewhere. Gavin was a naive fool. Garzik was and is an ethically challenged suck-off. I could go on... The point is: the network effect, rising prices, and positive PR are what has brought us here today.

Forget about devs - the work is done, cryptos work fine without their meddling. Again, over-development is what got BTC into trouble - Segwit is a useless albatross around BTC's neck. The blocksize debate was absolutely ridiculous, and all of the Kore claims of disaster if the blocks increase to even 2MB have long been proven completely false now. And Kore and Blockstream's complete inability to understand economics has made this journey PAINFUL.

Remember who works hard every day to make crypto magic - miners, node operators, payment processors, merchants, traders, sysadmins, security consultants, hackers, and the end users!
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December 16, 2017, 11:07:02 AM
 #11471

Is the bitcoin replacement operation going on right now ?

Head and shoulders on the bitcoin, the bitcoin cash moving upward

-14,75% it's going upward guys oh wait  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin






one need to tell these ignorant fucks and shameless bastards that what goes up must go down... have the nerves to post those charts again? suckers

https://s3.amazonaws.com/tradingview/snapshots/w/WUuBxXDY.png

oh wait, you posted that upside down dipshits, do we also have to teach you how to use a fucking web browser?
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December 16, 2017, 11:43:05 AM
 #11472

Price in angel phases should be as low as possible or who wants to buy around the top? Hmm. "Risk - Reward" , what was that about?

Carpe diem  -  cut the down side  -  be anti-fragile - don't dillute Bitcoin - mine honest!
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The simple way is the genius way - in Moore's Law and Satoshi's WP we trust.
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December 16, 2017, 11:54:29 AM
 #11473

What are u waiting from BCC ?  Cool Cool Cool


I  have already said it to those around me after  eth and ltc spikes BCC will be  next in line  and I am  sure this time is coming. 
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December 16, 2017, 12:31:58 PM
 #11474

I will be very happy to see more spikes with BCH.
Wasn't BCH pumped already days ago?
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December 16, 2017, 02:54:55 PM
 #11475

yeah right kun fu199, clown fu fu fu199? I guess you missed out on this trade, didn't you?
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December 16, 2017, 03:01:32 PM
Last edit: December 16, 2017, 06:57:29 PM by bones261
 #11476


Bitcoin Cash is not going to have a lot of full nodes if things go their way. In order to scale anywhere close to Visa, on chain, as appears to be their goal, a enterprise would need access to equipment capable of storing at least 56 TB of data per year. Probably at least quadruple that, since you want to properly index the data and have proper back ups. A casual user would need to run an SPV client.

For the umpteenth time - Bitcoin Cash has no reason to support Visa-scale transaction volume until such time as demand for transactions reaches Visa scale (is that a tautology?). If we somehow hit that next year, I'll be more than happy to store 56 TB of data that year. Of course, even in the most wildly optimistic scenario, Visa-scale demand is still several years off.

Perhaps you need to discuss this with Craig Wright on Twitter then. It appears nChain is working hard to bring this capacity to reality in 2018, needed or not.

    After watching this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SJm2ep3X_M&feature=youtu.be
I have come to the conclusion that on-chain scaling is indeed feasible. My previous objections were that it takes pools too long to verify transactions. Therefore, 1GB blocks would result in many empty blocks being mined.

I see no scenario where that would be a consequence. Can you explain? For that matter, how does one quantify 'too many empty blocks'? As long as all transactions are processed with reasonable alacrity, what does the block fullness matter?


Currently, there is a bottleneck in the way nodes need to verify transaction included in the previous block before they start including transactions in the new block they are working on. This is why empty blocks are frequently mined if they arrive within about 30 seconds of the previous block. 1GB blocks would compound this bottleneck 1000x. However, nChain is working on ways to relieve the bottleneck. Therefore, my objection would be thwarted.

However, I still have misgivings about 1 GB blocks since this would require a node to have the storage capacity of over 50tb per year.  

Other than to repeat that we will not consume that much storage until there is actual demand for it, I would like to point out the 50 TB of storage -- today -- costs less than 0.1 BTC (~$1650 USD at standard retail).



At this time, I believe this would cause a barrier to entry for small start ups that require a full node be run. (New exchanges, information services, mining pools etc.)
 
If a startup can't lose 0.1 BTC in the noise of its annual CapEx budget, it is likely to be a non-entity anyhow.


According to Craig Wright, the initial setup would be $20,000. If I wanted to start a block explorer or a sight like fork.lol, that's quite an outlay, especially since it extremely difficult to be able monetize such an informational sight, to make up the costs. I enjoy these information sights and don't deem them "non-entities."


I am not convinced that there is indeed a vulnerability that allows miners to steal your segwit coins. A white hat demonstration of this attack on a testnet would be required to convince me otherwise. Naturally a black hat demonstration on the mainnet would convince me too, but would not be ideal.

What's to misunderstand? A miner operating by the old rules sees a segwit transaction as an anyonecanspend transaction. Accordingly, that miner can spend the output to himself, should he be successful in mining the block. Of course, he would still need to get the other miners to extend his chain. But with enough value caught up in active transactions, there is an incentive for the miners to collude thusly. It may not come to pass, but it may. With Core adamant that they always act to vilify and marginalize the mining community, is it really that farfetched that such may come to pass?


Then it should be trivial to set up a testnet and demonstrate that this can actually happen. Iron clad proof to back up the Segwit hater's claim: Wouldn't that put the cherry on top of the sundae?

  

......
.L I V E C O I N . N E T.
.
..PROFITBOX..
██  █████████████████████████
  █████████▄      ▄██████████
█████████████▄  ▄████████████
    █████████████████████████
  ██████████▀    ▀█ ▀████████
████  █████▀  ▄▄  ▀█  ▀██████
  ████████▀  ▄██▄  ▀█   ▀████
    ██████   ▀██▀   ██   ████
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██  █████████▄  ▄████████████
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██  █████████████████████████
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█████████████████████▀   ███
    █████████████▀     ████
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████  █████▀     ██    ████
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    █████    ██    ██    ████
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██  █████    ██    ██    ████
  ███████████████████████████
.....
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December 16, 2017, 03:53:08 PM
 #11477

^Segwetters lols...have you guys been doing your part, pm all btc users to start using complex segwit (i hear coinbase are struggling to add it)
the segwit demand is so low, that you trolls are needed, but noooooooo....you trolls would rather come and spend your time here.... Roll Eyes

BCH price correction (up) is on the way.  Cool

Bcash shills lol  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Nice red colour  Grin Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Are you a scammer >?

hmm calling me a bcash shill on a bch forum  Roll Eyes lols

this red colour has done alot to help BCH... Wink
you do not know how many people follow me from other coins..
coins that i helped become over $20bill in market value, coins with huge communities and dev teams...coins that are backed by FI and other mainstream big businesses..

because of the red, people now see this below under my profile,everyday.......segwetters, the censorship, the mod-troll attacks on users...
they are learning that btab/segwit is a scam....
thanks for the red badge of honour  Kiss Kiss Kiss Kiss Kiss Kiss Kiss

Red colour fits Bcash propaganda spammers like you very well  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Make your own forum if you feel attacked for spreading lies  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Yes it was all you , you pumped it to 20 bil didn't you  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

When is the flippening Huh??  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Please spam some more propaganda how much does Bitcoin Judas pay you ??
Do you receive cookies now  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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December 16, 2017, 04:48:47 PM
 #11478

Enlighten yourselve what happened that lightening was sold to those who don't care about the future of bitcoin

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g


And no blockexplorer needed  Grin

Carpe diem  -  cut the down side  -  be anti-fragile - don't dillute Bitcoin - mine honest!
Memo: 1AHUYNJKPfY7PjVK1hNQFo5LrdGixuiybw  -  https://metanet.icu/
The simple way is the genius way - in Moore's Law and Satoshi's WP we trust.
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December 16, 2017, 04:59:52 PM
 #11479

^Segwetters lols...have you guys been doing your part, pm all btc users to start using complex segwit (i hear coinbase are struggling to add it)
the segwit demand is so low, that you trolls are needed, but noooooooo....you trolls would rather come and spend your time here.... Roll Eyes

BCH price correction (up) is on the way.  Cool

Bcash shills lol  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Nice red colour  Grin Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Are you a scammer >?

hmm calling me a bcash shill on a bch forum  Roll Eyes lols

this red colour has done alot to help BCH... Wink
you do not know how many people follow me from other coins..
coins that i helped become over $20bill in market value, coins with huge communities and dev teams...coins that are backed by FI and other mainstream big businesses..

because of the red, people now see this below under my profile,everyday.......segwetters, the censorship, the mod-troll attacks on users...
they are learning that btab/segwit is a scam....
thanks for the red badge of honour  Kiss Kiss Kiss Kiss Kiss Kiss Kiss

Red colour fits Bcash propaganda spammers like you very well  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Make your own forum if you feel attacked for spreading lies  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Yes it was all you , you pumped it to 20 bil didn't you  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

When is the flippening Huh??  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Please spam some more propaganda how much does Bitcoin Judas pay you ??
Do you receive cookies now  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
haha, you sound so butthurt lol   and i now understand, you cant read properly thats why you are so confused  Cheesy
this is bitcoin forum, bitcoin cash is bitcoin so again..haha
yea it was me, all $20bill, 3times so far  Cool   im planning on taking BCH over $100bill soon, so buy em (obs you will be)
flippening? lols, you really are a noob arent you
no one pays me, they should though, esp you trolls that come here to see what im going to do next haha
cookies? eh, what you talking about now, msvennnny   Shocked Cheesy

I got red trust because i speak the truth....This thread shows why many long term users are being tagged red, ...https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2399315.msg24593043#msg24593043 ,nullius and lauda are scammers.Bitcoin cash is the real upgrade bitcoin needed, not segwit.
How The Banks Bought Bitcoin  The Lightning Network - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g&feature=youtu.be&repost= Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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December 16, 2017, 05:18:37 PM
 #11480

BeeCash is for whales ~ stupid rich people keep buying! :\ grrrr

I am not a Financial Analyst, Investment Broker, Financial Adviser, Crypto-Guru or any sort of professional that would be deemed trustworthy! Wink weee™
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