Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[creativex]

Agreed, that post was ridiculous and ignored or glossed over BFL's role in this this whole business association breakdown while casting the investor in the worst possible light.

First off, I'm not glossing over BFL's role. They're late with a product, it's frustrating, emotions are high, yadda, yadda, yadda, we all get it. There are 1000 people beating that dead horse, I don't need to beat it further. But the OP wants to have his cake and eat it too. He decided to go out and trash the company, they decided they didn't want to do business with him anymore if he was going to treat them that way, and refunded his money.

He can't admit any wrongdoing here. He thinks he had full license to go around trashing them. His "Apologies" always consist of more back-handed name calling and threats (that's not an apology).

The OP has gone and manipulated his posting history to gloss over his role in baiting them into canceling his order. Think what you will of BFL, and their mishandling of orders/launch/PR, etc. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the OP showing his ass, and getting it spanked, and then going around and manipulating things to make himself appear to be a victim more than an instigator.

And for the love of god, quit calling him an "investor" he's not an investor, he's a customer (ex-customer now). There's a WORLD of difference, even if you might not know the difference yourself.

I believe you are glossing over BFL's role. They're not just "late with a product", but I'm not going to get into detailing all the inappropriate things BFL reps have said and done over the last 11 months.

As to "trashing the company", I've never thought of Josh or any of BFL's reps as wilting flowers that would be mortally wounded because someone insulted or used abusive language with them over the Interwebz. If that's the case then I'd recommend that they themselves discontinue using such tactics.

A customer orders an existing product from a vendor who then ships it to said customer. That is not the arrangement BFL has with those that send them funds. They're investors that are funding an as yet non-existent product's development. 

[Biomech]

Agreed, that post was ridiculous and ignored or glossed over BFL's role in this this whole business association breakdown while casting the investor in the worst possible light.

First off, I'm not glossing over BFL's role. They're late with a product, it's frustrating, emotions are high, yadda, yadda, yadda, we all get it. There are 1000 people beating that dead horse, I don't need to beat it further. But the OP wants to have his cake and eat it too. He decided to go out and trash the company, they decided they didn't want to do business with him anymore if he was going to treat them that way, and refunded his money.

He can't admit any wrongdoing here. He thinks he had full license to go around trashing them. His "Apologies" always consist of more back-handed name calling and threats (that's not an apology).

The OP has gone and manipulated his posting history to gloss over his role in baiting them into canceling his order. Think what you will of BFL, and their mishandling of orders/launch/PR, etc. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the OP showing his ass, and getting it spanked, and then going around and manipulating things to make himself appear to be a victim more than an instigator.

And for the love of god, quit calling him an "investor" he's not an investor, he's a customer (ex-customer now). There's a WORLD of difference, even if you might not know the difference yourself.

Getting a bit tired of the whole thing myself. But a "pre-order" that stretches over a year's time should be viewed as an inadverdent investment.

[wrenchmonkey]

Agreed, that post was ridiculous and ignored or glossed over BFL's role in this this whole business association breakdown while casting the investor in the worst possible light.

First off, I'm not glossing over BFL's role. They're late with a product, it's frustrating, emotions are high, yadda, yadda, yadda, we all get it. There are 1000 people beating that dead horse, I don't need to beat it further. But the OP wants to have his cake and eat it too. He decided to go out and trash the company, they decided they didn't want to do business with him anymore if he was going to treat them that way, and refunded his money.

He can't admit any wrongdoing here. He thinks he had full license to go around trashing them. His "Apologies" always consist of more back-handed name calling and threats (that's not an apology).

The OP has gone and manipulated his posting history to gloss over his role in baiting them into canceling his order. Think what you will of BFL, and their mishandling of orders/launch/PR, etc. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the OP showing his ass, and getting it spanked, and then going around and manipulating things to make himself appear to be a victim more than an instigator.

And for the love of god, quit calling him an "investor" he's not an investor, he's a customer (ex-customer now). There's a WORLD of difference, even if you might not know the difference yourself.

I believe you are glossing over BFL's role. They're not just "late with a product", but I'm not going to get into detailing all the inappropriate things BFL reps have said and done over the last 11 months.

As to "trashing the company", I've never thought of Josh or any of BFL's reps as wilting flowers that would be mortally wounded because someone insulted or used abusive language with them over the Interwebz. If that's the case then I'd recommend that they themselves discontinue using such tactics.

A customer orders an existing product from a vendor who then ships it to said customer. That is not the arrangement BFL has with those that send them funds. They're investors that are funding an as yet non-existent product's development. 

Again, BFL's role has been hashed time and again, it's not "glossing over" it to chose not to pile on with everybody who wants to drink the haterade. They're late with a product, several times over. They've missed their target release dates. Shit happens. My personal opinion is that they're overly optimistic. They tend to over-proimse and under-deliver. Pretty much the opposite of the well-known strategy for garnering good will with customers. I get it. I really do. But we don't have to re-hash that every time we address what one of their CUSTOMERS does.

I didn't say they're wilting flowers, or any other crap that you might want to put in my mouth. I said that he went about trashing their company. He accused them of scamming, he flung personal insults at a corporate officer, he went about on multiple threads on multiple forums spreading FUD about the company, discouraging other buyers. Whether you like to admit it or not, that's harmful to their business. He's part of a small group of people who are actively seeking to do their company material financial and reputational harm. Whether you believe they deserve it or not is irrelevant.

So, with that collection of facts. It's unsurprising that a company would decide that they're going to discontinue their business/customer relationship with him. He placed a pre-order, they weren't able to deliver as quickly as they thought/anticipated/claimed, he went about seeking to harm their company as a result, they refunded his order and told him to pound sand.

There's also good cause to believe that his attempts to deter other customers from purchasing was a self-serving endeavor, in order to keep others from getting ahold of the choice hardware that he so desperately wants for himself. He thought he could have his cake and eat it too. Keep his order and get the hardware he wanted, while scaring others off from doing the same, causing difficulty to rise.

He was never an investor, he was never a stockholder, he was never anything more than a customer who placed a pre-order, for the purpose of getting a preferential spot at the front of the order queue. End of story. Customer =/= "investor".

[Xian01]

Agreed, that post was ridiculous and ignored or glossed over BFL's role in this this whole business association breakdown while casting the investor in the worst possible light.

But the OP wants to have his cake and eat it too.

OP wants his cake without having to deal with the contempt-of-customer displayed by the companies CEO *on these forums*, if you want to be accurate and truthful.

He can't admit any wrongdoing here. He thinks he had full license to go around trashing them. His "Apologies" always consist of more back-handed name calling and threats (that's not an apology).

 I've admitted and apologized for losing my cool. Repeatedly. Please point me in the direction of back-handed name-calling and threats.

 Hiring a lawyer to protect my investment is not a threat. It is a matter of practicality.

The OP has gone and manipulated his posting history to gloss over his role in baiting them into canceling his order. Think what you will of BFL, and their mishandling of orders/launch/PR, etc. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the OP showing his ass, and getting it spanked, and then going around and manipulating things to make himself appear to be a victim more than an instigator.

 From a certain point of view, I can see your point. From my point of view, I was taunted by the Chief Operating Officer of a company I did business with on these forums, and called him on his terrible behavior and contemptuous and inexcusable public behavior. He chose to punitively cancel my orders that I dared to stand up to his public ego or call him to account.

And for the love of god, quit calling him an "investor" he's not an investor, he's a customer (ex-customer now).

 IMO, I was as much of an investor as the Venture Capitalists that invested in Butterfly Labs' ASIC endeavors 11 months ago, as are all June 2012 preorder customers.

A customer orders an existing product from a vendor who then ships it to said customer. That is not the arrangement BFL has with those that send them funds.

 You are correct, and this speaks to the root of my case.

[poobah]

Because my council has informed me Butterfly Labs has broken the law.

I doubt that.
After you file, please feel free to tell us what law was broken.

[wrenchmonkey]

Agreed, that post was ridiculous and ignored or glossed over BFL's role in this this whole business association breakdown while casting the investor in the worst possible light.

First off, I'm not glossing over BFL's role. They're late with a product, it's frustrating, emotions are high, yadda, yadda, yadda, we all get it. There are 1000 people beating that dead horse, I don't need to beat it further. But the OP wants to have his cake and eat it too. He decided to go out and trash the company, they decided they didn't want to do business with him anymore if he was going to treat them that way, and refunded his money.

He can't admit any wrongdoing here. He thinks he had full license to go around trashing them. His "Apologies" always consist of more back-handed name calling and threats (that's not an apology).

The OP has gone and manipulated his posting history to gloss over his role in baiting them into canceling his order. Think what you will of BFL, and their mishandling of orders/launch/PR, etc. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the OP showing his ass, and getting it spanked, and then going around and manipulating things to make himself appear to be a victim more than an instigator.

And for the love of god, quit calling him an "investor" he's not an investor, he's a customer (ex-customer now). There's a WORLD of difference, even if you might not know the difference yourself.

Getting a bit tired of the whole thing myself. But a "pre-order" that stretches over a year's time should be viewed as an inadverdent investment.

I disagree. It should be viewed as a pre-order that inadvertently didn't ship when anticipated. You don't get the option of a refund on investments if they go bad. If there were no refund available, you might be able to argue that it had become an inadvertent "investment" in the company, and I'd be right there screaming "bullshit" with everybody else if that was the case. But it's not the case.

The case is simple. People have pre-ordered a product. It's been MASSIVELY delayed, more than once. Yet, everybody still has the option to request a refund if they decide the wait is too long. Ergo, it's not an "investment" in BFL.

[k9quaint]

Because my council has informed me Butterfly Labs has broken the law.

I doubt that.
After you file, please feel free to tell us what law was broken.

BFL broke contract law. You can read a lawyer's breakdown of it in this thread.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=217036.msg2290818#msg2290818

[Biomech]

Agreed, that post was ridiculous and ignored or glossed over BFL's role in this this whole business association breakdown while casting the investor in the worst possible light.

First off, I'm not glossing over BFL's role. They're late with a product, it's frustrating, emotions are high, yadda, yadda, yadda, we all get it. There are 1000 people beating that dead horse, I don't need to beat it further. But the OP wants to have his cake and eat it too. He decided to go out and trash the company, they decided they didn't want to do business with him anymore if he was going to treat them that way, and refunded his money.

He can't admit any wrongdoing here. He thinks he had full license to go around trashing them. His "Apologies" always consist of more back-handed name calling and threats (that's not an apology).

The OP has gone and manipulated his posting history to gloss over his role in baiting them into canceling his order. Think what you will of BFL, and their mishandling of orders/launch/PR, etc. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the OP showing his ass, and getting it spanked, and then going around and manipulating things to make himself appear to be a victim more than an instigator.

And for the love of god, quit calling him an "investor" he's not an investor, he's a customer (ex-customer now). There's a WORLD of difference, even if you might not know the difference yourself.

Getting a bit tired of the whole thing myself. But a "pre-order" that stretches over a year's time should be viewed as an inadverdent investment.

I disagree. It should be viewed as a pre-order that inadvertently didn't ship when anticipated. You don't get the option of a refund on investments if they go bad. If there were no refund available, you might be able to argue that it had become an inadvertent "investment" in the company, and I'd be right there screaming "bullshit" with everybody else if that was the case. But it's not the case.

The case is simple. People have pre-ordered a product. It's been MASSIVELY delayed, more than once. Yet, everybody still has the option to request a refund if they decide the wait is too long. Ergo, it's not an "investment" in BFL.

Point taken.

I've actually tried to stay neutral in this whole mess. I wanted their machines, but I can't justify the risk. Inaba was actually very civil, if a bit hostile, with me. I'm in the wait and see boat. I really think KnC and Terrahash will beat them to market. But my crystal ball doesn't hash very well, so we'll see.


edited the messed up quote tags. Typing with a huge bandage on your finger is a bitch!

[k9quaint]

Agreed, that post was ridiculous and ignored or glossed over BFL's role in this this whole business association breakdown while casting the investor in the worst possible light.

First off, I'm not glossing over BFL's role. They're late with a product, it's frustrating, emotions are high, yadda, yadda, yadda, we all get it. There are 1000 people beating that dead horse, I don't need to beat it further. But the OP wants to have his cake and eat it too. He decided to go out and trash the company, they decided they didn't want to do business with him anymore if he was going to treat them that way, and refunded his money.

He can't admit any wrongdoing here. He thinks he had full license to go around trashing them. His "Apologies" always consist of more back-handed name calling and threats (that's not an apology).

The OP has gone and manipulated his posting history to gloss over his role in baiting them into canceling his order. Think what you will of BFL, and their mishandling of orders/launch/PR, etc. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the OP showing his ass, and getting it spanked, and then going around and manipulating things to make himself appear to be a victim more than an instigator.

And for the love of god, quit calling him an "investor" he's not an investor, he's a customer (ex-customer now). There's a WORLD of difference, even if you might not know the difference yourself.

Getting a bit tired of the whole thing myself. But a "pre-order" that stretches over a year's time should be viewed as an inadverdent investment.

I disagree. It should be viewed as a pre-order that inadvertently didn't ship when anticipated. You don't get the option of a refund on investments if they go bad. If there were no refund available, you might be able to argue that it had become an inadvertent "investment" in the company, and I'd be right there screaming "bullshit" with everybody else if that was the case. But it's not the case.

The case is simple. People have pre-ordered a product. It's been MASSIVELY delayed, more than once. Yet, everybody still has the option to request a refund if they decide the wait is too long. Ergo, it's not an "investment" in BFL.

BFL sold a product to be delivered in the future. Xian upheld his part of the contract by paying the agreed upon funds. That product has increased in value and is difficult for BFL to deliver. That is the risk BFL took.

BFL had no obligation to do further business with Xian. They do however still owe Xian the goods they contracted to deliver to him when they took his money. If they can't or won't deliver the goods, they owe him comparable goods or the market value of what they failed to deliver. They cannot just back out of a contract because they don't want to pay up. All contract law depends on this.

You can read a lawyer's analysis of it here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=217036.msg2290818#msg2290818
I am sure we will hear about Xian's case as it grinds through the courts.

[Xian01]

Because my council has informed me Butterfly Labs has broken the law.

I doubt that.
After you file, please feel free to tell us what law was broken.

(What is it with the newbie accounts posting in this thread ? My Lord...)

Without wanting to give too much away, I've already gone through a couple tangentially-similar commercial disputes with a couple entities that I've won. Their lawyers took a look at our complaints and advised their clients to capitulate.

I am hoping this case never sees the inside of a courtroom, but am preparing to go all the way if need-be.

I pray it doesn't go that far. For everyone involved

[Bicknellski]

I suggest you simply stop posting Xian01...

Go dark.

Let them stew in what will eventually happen.

[Xian01]

I suggest you simply stop posting Xian01...
Go dark.
Let them stew in what will eventually happen.

 Fair enough.

 Going dark. Locking thread.