Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[nottm28]

Question for the anti-BFL crew:

Why are you guys not dog-piling on Avalon for what would seem to be more likely examples of unethical business practices?

Take for instance this guy's Avalon, which certainly appears to have been run for quite awhile before delivery.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141154.msg2175901#msg2175901

Why does something as seemingly egregious as this, get a pass?

Yet, all hints and allegations against BFL are automatically assumed to be true.

Please do it for us. If you find something wrong, go ahead and sound off. No one is stopping you.

This PuertoLibre makes it his profession to slag off BFL just like Xian01 does. Different motives however:

PuertoLibre - he already has a 60GH/s avalon asic and actively encourages people to get a BFL refund - this is because he is happy with the 3-5 BTC he earns every day and he's worried his earnings will reduce dramatically when the BFL asics are delivered.

Xian01 - his motive is unclear - he's lost a 2012 order - he could have sold it for 10x the price he paid if he wasn't such an idiot - to me the only thing I can think is that he's an idiot...

[k9quaint]

I was speaking hypothetically in the realm of "if BFL was able to ship right now in volume"

This would rely on the assumption of two things: that they could fill their existing orders of $125/$275 quickly, and that every new order placed could be priced at roughly 14-15x the current price - and people would pay it (following that people paid that much per mh/s on the USB miners)

It's very simple to logically believe that IF BFL could ship right now, they would, because they would have a monopoly on ASIC sales given their hash rates... and they could charge a LOT more for each unit. 

The money they could make in BTC a day would be nothing compared to the $ they could be bringing in and then just converting to BTC

Sure, assuming they could price their product 15x and ship in bulk right now, then they would be better off shipping product. However, I don't believe they can do either.

The ASICMiner product is not really competitive. Even so, it and the Avalon chip sails have already sucked up a lot of capital that would have otherwise gone to BFL. Also, both products are being sold at inflated prices. If BFL actually enters the market, Avalon and ASICMiner could revise their prices down to compete.

[smoothie]

(Eating popcorn watching this thread while waiting for btc conf to start) 

[wrenchmonkey]

I was speaking hypothetically in the realm of "if BFL was able to ship right now in volume"

This would rely on the assumption of two things: that they could fill their existing orders of $125/$275 quickly, and that every new order placed could be priced at roughly 14-15x the current price - and people would pay it (following that people paid that much per mh/s on the USB miners)

It's very simple to logically believe that IF BFL could ship right now, they would, because they would have a monopoly on ASIC sales given their hash rates... and they could charge a LOT more for each unit. 

The money they could make in BTC a day would be nothing compared to the $ they could be bringing in and then just converting to BTC

Sure, assuming they could price their product 15x and ship in bulk right now, then they would be better off shipping product. However, I don't believe they can do either.

The ASICMiner product is not really competitive. Even so, it and the Avalon chip sails have already sucked up a lot of capital that would have otherwise gone to BFL. Also, both products are being sold at inflated prices. If BFL actually enters the market, Avalon and ASICMiner could revise their prices down to compete.

But they're not capable of or willing to ship in quantity either. A couple hundred units from Avalon? So what? They aren't capable or or interested in shipping in quantity. And neither is ASIC Miner. They've said several times that the only reason they're actually selling at all, is that they can't bring more equipment online until there's mor hashing power out there, to prevent 51% of network share. So they're only selling in the mean time. Once BFL comes online, full-force, Avalon is toast, because they can't produce at speed or quantity, and ASIC Miner are gonners too, because they don't even want to be in the retail game in the first place.

If BFL starts shipping in quantity, difficulty is going to SKYROCKET, and that will create even MORE demand for their product. Anybody who spends more than a few cursory seconds on this realizes that there's WAY MORE money in selling the 'shovels' than there is in mining.

Guaranteed, there's nobody who wants BFL up and producing (and shipping) at maximum capacity more than BFL does.

[ThatDGuy]

I was speaking hypothetically in the realm of "if BFL was able to ship right now in volume"

This would rely on the assumption of two things: that they could fill their existing orders of $125/$275 quickly, and that every new order placed could be priced at roughly 14-15x the current price - and people would pay it (following that people paid that much per mh/s on the USB miners)

It's very simple to logically believe that IF BFL could ship right now, they would, because they would have a monopoly on ASIC sales given their hash rates... and they could charge a LOT more for each unit.  

The money they could make in BTC a day would be nothing compared to the $ they could be bringing in and then just converting to BTC

Sure, assuming they could price their product 15x and ship in bulk right now, then they would be better off shipping product. However, I don't believe they can do either.

The ASICMiner product is not really competitive. Even so, it and the Avalon chip sails have already sucked up a lot of capital that would have otherwise gone to BFL. Also, both products are being sold at inflated prices. If BFL actually enters the market, Avalon and ASICMiner could revise their prices down to compete.

Right - so since we agree given those assumptions, doesn't that contradict this statement?:

That is exactly the sort of temptation I would expect that BFL could not resist. They are already way behind in the marketplace to Avalon, and ASICMiner is adding a large amount of hashrate to their operation (their retail product is not competitive). Avalon batch 2 is shipping, and the secondary market for Avalon boards+chips is due to mature by the end of summer. However, there is no indication that BFL has added any significant hash rate so I don't think they are mining to any great degree.

I get that a lot of people are pissed about BFL's delays, but the accusation that they would be mining with their own product instead of shipping if they could just doesn't hold up to business logic.  It reeks of bitterness about the prior missed deadlines or issues with their PR.

[Unacceptable]

Xian, how BFL found out your order details? I mean dude, what do you thinking when writing post in such tone if you knew they know your info and that they could easilly do this?

 I made the mistake of thinking they wouldn't stoop to that level. It's non-trivial for BFL to link this username to their customer database. Another mistake of mine for using this moniker.

 It's telling that they decided to punish me for calling their COO out on admitting these forums were not important to their business, along with other vitriolic nonsense. I guess that was another lie as apparently these forums are important enough to cancel disgruntled former customers' order, for expressing their displeasure.

 It's almost like they have something to hide, and I just can't get the image of Josh Zerlan as "The Soup Nazi" out of my mind.

 *shrugs*

  I feel for ya Xian.But I must remain silent.........................

[Xian01]

Xian01 - his motive is unclear - he's lost a 2012 order - he could have sold it for 10x the price he paid if he wasn't such an idiot - to me the only thing I can think is that he's an idiot...

 Not sure I would go so far with the idiot classification. Disgruntled and bitter, sure. Idiot ? Yeah, I guess I was an idiot holding out for 11 months, being strung along, and being OK with taking abuse from their COO.

 Except for that whole part where I was not OK with taking the abuse and constant delays, and expressed my displeasure in a pretty harsh way.

 In retrospect, I should have just taken a refund and bought Avalon or ASICMiner.

 I'm sure one day BFL will ship and I'll look at all you with your BFL rigs and I'll feel a pang of regret. It's too bad for me I can't keep my cool and bite-down hard on the ball when I'm getting it from behind.

[k9quaint]

I was speaking hypothetically in the realm of "if BFL was able to ship right now in volume"

This would rely on the assumption of two things: that they could fill their existing orders of $125/$275 quickly, and that every new order placed could be priced at roughly 14-15x the current price - and people would pay it (following that people paid that much per mh/s on the USB miners)

It's very simple to logically believe that IF BFL could ship right now, they would, because they would have a monopoly on ASIC sales given their hash rates... and they could charge a LOT more for each unit.  

The money they could make in BTC a day would be nothing compared to the $ they could be bringing in and then just converting to BTC

Sure, assuming they could price their product 15x and ship in bulk right now, then they would be better off shipping product. However, I don't believe they can do either.

The ASICMiner product is not really competitive. Even so, it and the Avalon chip sails have already sucked up a lot of capital that would have otherwise gone to BFL. Also, both products are being sold at inflated prices. If BFL actually enters the market, Avalon and ASICMiner could revise their prices down to compete.

Right - so since we agree given those assumptions, doesn't that contradict this statement?:

That is exactly the sort of temptation I would expect that BFL could not resist. They are already way behind in the marketplace to Avalon, and ASICMiner is adding a large amount of hashrate to their operation (their retail product is not competitive). Avalon batch 2 is shipping, and the secondary market for Avalon boards+chips is due to mature by the end of summer. However, there is no indication that BFL has added any significant hash rate so I don't think they are mining to any great degree.

I get that a lot of people are pissed about BFL's delays, but the accusation that they would be mining with their own product instead of shipping if they could just doesn't hold up to business logic.  It reeks of bitterness about the prior missed deadlines or issues with their PR.

The assumptions are not really valid and therefore it does hold up to business logic because they cannot raise their prices 15x nor can they ship in bulk. Also, they need to clear all the orders at the original prices before they can sell ones at 15x. So it makes more sense to mine with a few units than to ship them at this point.

[nottm28]

Xian01 - his motive is unclear - he's lost a 2012 order - he could have sold it for 10x the price he paid if he wasn't such an idiot - to me the only thing I can think is that he's an idiot...

 Not sure I would go so far with the idiot classification. Disgruntled and bitter, sure. Idiot ? Yeah, I guess I was an idiot holding out for 11 months, being strung along, and being OK with taking abuse from their COO.

 Except for that whole part where I was not OK with taking the abuse and constant delays, and expressed my displeasure in a pretty harsh way.

 In retrospect, I should have just taken a refund and bought Avalon or ASICMiner.

 I'm sure one day BFL will ship and I'll look at all you with your BFL rigs and I'll feel a pang of regret. It's too bad for me I can't keep my cool and bite-down hard on the ball when I'm getting it from behind.

What did you think would happen when you became a one man band of barage? Did you think BFL would say 'yeah we better ship now because Xian01 is getting pissed off big time' ? or did you think BFL might say 'you know what, this guy has gone waaaayyyy too far - give him his money back and get rid' ?

[ThatDGuy]

I was speaking hypothetically in the realm of "if BFL was able to ship right now in volume"

This would rely on the assumption of two things: that they could fill their existing orders of $125/$275 quickly, and that every new order placed could be priced at roughly 14-15x the current price - and people would pay it (following that people paid that much per mh/s on the USB miners)

It's very simple to logically believe that IF BFL could ship right now, they would, because they would have a monopoly on ASIC sales given their hash rates... and they could charge a LOT more for each unit.  

The money they could make in BTC a day would be nothing compared to the $ they could be bringing in and then just converting to BTC

Sure, assuming they could price their product 15x and ship in bulk right now, then they would be better off shipping product. However, I don't believe they can do either.

The ASICMiner product is not really competitive. Even so, it and the Avalon chip sails have already sucked up a lot of capital that would have otherwise gone to BFL. Also, both products are being sold at inflated prices. If BFL actually enters the market, Avalon and ASICMiner could revise their prices down to compete.

Right - so since we agree given those assumptions, doesn't that contradict this statement?:

That is exactly the sort of temptation I would expect that BFL could not resist. They are already way behind in the marketplace to Avalon, and ASICMiner is adding a large amount of hashrate to their operation (their retail product is not competitive). Avalon batch 2 is shipping, and the secondary market for Avalon boards+chips is due to mature by the end of summer. However, there is no indication that BFL has added any significant hash rate so I don't think they are mining to any great degree.

I get that a lot of people are pissed about BFL's delays, but the accusation that they would be mining with their own product instead of shipping if they could just doesn't hold up to business logic.  It reeks of bitterness about the prior missed deadlines or issues with their PR.

The assumptions are not really valid and therefore it does hold up to business logic because they cannot raise their prices 15x nor can they ship in bulk. Also, they need to clear all the orders at the original prices before they can sell ones at 15x. So it makes more sense to mine with a few units than to ship them at this point.

Hence the hypothetical pretense about the entire discussion.  If BFL could ship, they would.

[Xian01]

or did you think BFL might say 'you know what, this guy has gone waaaayyyy too far - give him his money back and get rid' ?

 We obviously know the answer to that now, don't we ? I've already admitted I expressed my frustration a little bit too harshly. I really shouldn't make excuses. What more do you want me to say ?

 Additionally, no, I wouldn't expect them to ship, because I recognized they don't have any product to ship. Expecting timely and accurate information was too much to ask for.

[wrenchmonkey]

Xian01 - his motive is unclear - he's lost a 2012 order - he could have sold it for 10x the price he paid if he wasn't such an idiot - to me the only thing I can think is that he's an idiot...

 Not sure I would go so far with the idiot classification. Disgruntled and bitter, sure. Idiot ? Yeah, I guess I was an idiot holding out for 11 months, being strung along, and being OK with taking abuse from their COO.

 Except for that whole part where I was not OK with taking the abuse and constant delays, and expressed my displeasure in a pretty harsh way.

 In retrospect, I should have just taken a refund and bought Avalon or ASICMiner.

 I'm sure one day BFL will ship and I'll look at all you with your BFL rigs and I'll feel a pang of regret. It's too bad for me I can't keep my cool and bite-down hard on the ball when I'm getting it from behind.

You're ALREADY looking back with pangs of regret, but only regret that you got booted. Not regret for your behavior. I don't know if you're capable of that part...

[darkmule]

You can tell what kind of scumbags BFL are by who defends them:  other scumbags.

[Henchman24]

Xian, how BFL found out your order details? I mean dude, what do you thinking when writing post in such tone if you knew they know your info and that they could easilly do this?

 I made the mistake of thinking they wouldn't stoop to that level.

People are asked to take their business elsewhere everyday.  No stooping necessary.  In fact, it's their right.

It's telling that they decided to punish me for calling their COO out on admitting these forums were not important to their business, along with other vitriolic nonsense.

Occam's Razor.  It tells us that they refuse to do business with someone who constantly trashes them.  Nothing more.

I guess that was another lie as apparently these forums are important enough to cancel disgruntled former customers' order, for expressing their displeasure.

Displeasure is "Waiter, this soup is cold.", not "Go eat a bag of dicks".  LOL  You just can't take any responsibility for this, can you?

It's almost like they have something to hide, and I just can't get the image of Josh Zerlan as "The Soup Nazi" out of my mind.

 *shrugs*

It's almost like...you just say whatever falls out of your ass.     Just more innuendo and baseless accusations from the "victim".

One customer out of thousands gets his ass booted, and you try to equate that to "BFL doesn't allow any criticism".   

[nottm28]

You can tell what kind of scumbags BFL are by who defends them:  other scumbags.

Let me guess your motive:

PuertoLibre darkmule - he already has a 60GH/s avalon asic and actively encourages people to get a BFL refund - this is because he is happy with the 3-5 BTC he earns every day and he's worried his earnings will reduce dramatically when the BFL asics are delivered.

[Xian01]

I feel for ya Xian.But I must remain silent.........................

 I understand. Did you mean this ?

[Turbor]

You can tell what kind of scumbags BFL are by who defends them:  other scumbags.

And some people should just try the bag of dicks eating thing

[wrenchmonkey]

You can tell what kind of scumbags BFL are by who defends them:  other scumbags.

Let me guess your motive:

PuertoLibre darkmule - he already has a 60GH/s avalon asic and actively encourages people to get a BFL refund - this is because he is happy with the 3-5 BTC he earns every day and he's worried his earnings will reduce dramatically when the BFL asics are delivered.

Doubt it. This darkmule guy just pops in every once in a while to fling an insult and then crawls back in his hole. He's got nothing to bring to the table.

[k9quaint]

I was speaking hypothetically in the realm of "if BFL was able to ship right now in volume"

This would rely on the assumption of two things: that they could fill their existing orders of $125/$275 quickly, and that every new order placed could be priced at roughly 14-15x the current price - and people would pay it (following that people paid that much per mh/s on the USB miners)

It's very simple to logically believe that IF BFL could ship right now, they would, because they would have a monopoly on ASIC sales given their hash rates... and they could charge a LOT more for each unit. 

The money they could make in BTC a day would be nothing compared to the $ they could be bringing in and then just converting to BTC

Sure, assuming they could price their product 15x and ship in bulk right now, then they would be better off shipping product. However, I don't believe they can do either.

The ASICMiner product is not really competitive. Even so, it and the Avalon chip sails have already sucked up a lot of capital that would have otherwise gone to BFL. Also, both products are being sold at inflated prices. If BFL actually enters the market, Avalon and ASICMiner could revise their prices down to compete.

But they're not capable of or willing to ship in quantity either. A couple hundred units from Avalon? So what? They aren't capable or or interested in shipping in quantity.

1 Avalon unit is 66GH/s, more than 10x the performance of 1 BFL Jalapeno (the only BFL unit that has left their facility). Each Avalon unit has 3x88 chips in it (IIRC) so that is (300 batch 1 units + 300 batch 2 units ) x (3 x 88) = 158,400 chips. That is volume. Also, they have sold another 400,000+ chips to the DIY and group buy crowd. That is shipping ASICs in volume. BFL by contrast has moved maybe 3 dozen ASIC chips.

And neither is ASIC Miner. They've said several times that the only reason they're actually selling at all, is that they can't bring more equipment online until there's mor hashing power out there, to prevent 51% of network share. So they're only selling in the mean time. Once BFL comes online, full-force, Avalon is toast, because they can't produce at speed or quantity, and ASIC Miner are gonners too, because they don't even want to be in the retail game in the first place.

BFL miners compete with both ASICMiner retail and ASICMiner mining operation. So the ROI on BFL units does not distinguish between ASICMiner chips.

If BFL starts shipping in quantity, difficulty is going to SKYROCKET, and that will create even MORE demand for their product. Anybody who spends more than a few cursory seconds on this realizes that there's WAY MORE money in selling the 'shovels' than there is in mining.

Guaranteed, there's nobody who wants BFL up and producing (and shipping) at maximum capacity more than BFL does.

The facts do not bear out your statement. $2700 per day per 500GH/s for mining in the short term vs $5000 to $10000 profit per 500GH/s selling. It makes more sense to mine first, then ship. Only after the difficulty rises or the price of USD/BTC falls will the tide shift. Don't forget, BFL can mine and ship, they do not have to choose one or the other.

[PuertoLibre]

Question for the anti-BFL crew:

Why are you guys not dog-piling on Avalon for what would seem to be more likely examples of unethical business practices?

Take for instance this guy's Avalon, which certainly appears to have been run for quite awhile before delivery.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141154.msg2175901#msg2175901

Why does something as seemingly egregious as this, get a pass?

Yet, all hints and allegations against BFL are automatically assumed to be true.

Please do it for us. If you find something wrong, go ahead and sound off. No one is stopping you.

This PuertoLibre makes it his profession to slag off BFL just like Xian01 does. Different motives however:

PuertoLibre - he already has a 60GH/s avalon asic and actively encourages people to get a BFL refund - this is because he is happy with the 3-5 BTC he earns every day and he's worried his earnings will reduce dramatically when the BFL asics are delivered.

Nah, I win either way.

If BFL ships I will put in some massive orders via a third party. (That way Josh/Jody won't know which order they should cancel.)

If BFL does not ship, they take a bunch of customers with them like what happened with bASIC. (Except Tom actually honored almost all refunds despite his collapsed company!) Rendering them financially destitute and out of the game as significant competitors.

In the latter possibility, I have made a point of telling people how I think things are with BFL and waved a big red flag of caution for them repeatedly. Those that stay and lose their money...well....it is on their own conscience not mine.

Xian01 - his motive is unclear - he's lost a 2012 order - he could have sold it for 10x the price he paid if he wasn't such an idiot - to me the only thing I can think is that he's an idiot...

He's a customer. Full Stop.

He's a customer who suffered retaliation from a company that did not ship his product despite showing extreme patience and finally his frustrations. Full Stop.

Did he say some unfortunate things towards one of the Reps? Yes.

Did the Reps then take the initiative to retaliate and make an example of Xian01 and potentially any other customer who can be identified and linked to their order? (It seems likely and pretty much true.)

---------------------------
It is like saying:

I have your e-money for your printing device for 11 months. I can threaten you too with "cancellation" if you speak out against me or anyone at my company.

Word to the wise and those out there holding orders. If you speak ill of me, I will cancel your order and take away your future profits. Your wait will have been worth nothing.

So shut up, and bend over...or else...

It is customer service with a smile. (emphasis on smile)