Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[wrenchmonkey]

Most companies don't like to do business with customers who are a pain in the ass. Contractors weed out bad customers all the time by providing high estimates to customers who seem like they will be a real pain the ass.

Most companies that extend their initial delivery date by 800% on a $2000 order aren't in business anymore. Its a nice system they got going on. Post some updates on their bfl forums, give absolutely no timeframes or concrete evidence to show that production is nearing. Apparently processing now means they are still revamping the prototype.

 What's the rush when mining with asics is this proffitable? Just throw some water on the fire over on the bitcoitalk forums to get them to shut up for another couple weeks. If their are any bad ones, just give them refunds so they will stop giving us a bad reputation. This way we can keep the preorders rolling in.

I'm so glad I wasn't around here during the initial preorder time. I'd be furious with bfl. I bet when the difficulty jumps to 100,000,000 those asics are going to fly out the doors of bfl.

More FUD. What evidence do you have for your implication that they're mining with customer ASIC units? Any at all? Nooooope. But don't let that get in the way of you posting your bullshit.

[Xian01]

More FUD. What evidence do you have for your implication that they're mining with customer ASIC units? Any at all? Nooooope. But don't let that get in the way of you posting your bullshit.

That's not what he's saying at all. Welcome to my ignore list. Your contributions to this thread have now become nonsensical.

[wrenchmonkey]

Most companies don't like to do business with customers who are a pain in the ass. Contractors weed out bad customers all the time by providing high estimates to customers who seem like they will be a real pain the ass.

What's the rush when mining with asics is this proffitable? Just throw some water on the fire over on the bitcoitalk forums to get them to shut up for another couple weeks. If their are any bad ones, just give them refunds so they will stop giving us a bad reputation. This way we can keep the preorders rolling in.

I'm so glad I wasn't around here during the initial preorder time. I'd be furious with bfl. I bet when the difficulty jumps to 100,000,000 those asics are going to fly out the doors of bfl.

Then explain this sentence?

[ThatDGuy]

I took another minute.  8 days of difference between the posts between the posts, and one day before he decided to order it appears he is still not convinced.

You are not contradicting my statement that "Wrenchmonkey was even posting in BFL threads in the newbies forum."
Nor are you contradicting my statement that "36 out of last 40 posts are defending BFL."
Finally, you are not contradicting my statement that his account was registered April 16th.

Perhaps you could be more specific about your criticism of my post? It sounds like you are disagreeing with me, but I am not sure how.

Yes, it appears Wrenchmonkey's perspective on BFL changed in a matter of a few posts, but I am pointing out that 8-9 days lapsed before that happened.  These were (subjectively) significant days in ASIC development.

True. But my point was mostly that wrenchmonkey got here a month ago, and declared his purchase of BFL product while still in the newbie forum. He routinely calls people who criticize BFL "trolls", "douches" and "retards". Wrenchmonkey is not a voice of reason about BFL. He is a combination of confirmation bias run wild and a sociopath's take on treatment of customers.

I haven't read through the rest of his or anybody's history (or paid enough attention to individual posters in these threads in general) to comment on that.  From my perspective, the general tone that any BFL thread takes on gets way out of hand very quickly and is mostly noise between a few names that pop up again and again.  I'm sure there are a lot of people with a huge amount potentially lost or gained on the delays, so emotions are understandable - but hardly okay.

I'm only bringing up other relevant parts of Wrenchmonkey's post history in an attempt for further transparency, since when you first brought it up, it was his post when he said he was ordering.  Not the one from 9 days before when he was skeptical.

Right. He was skeptical of BFL (for 1 post) until BFL shipped a couple of dozen Jalapeno's to media and developers. Then he bought their product. All while still in the newbie forum.

So, is the suggestion that wrenchmonkey or minternj BFL employees, or Josh in disguise?  I just don't believe that to be so.

I registered on these forums on April 25th.  I've been following Bitcoin for about 8 months prior to that either on simply reading here, or on r/Bitcoin.  I was in a very similar position as wrenchmonkey was close to the time that he made each of those posts.  Regardless of what happened after that, I can confirm that Wrenchmonkey's initial experience was a shared one and probably by more than just two of us.

[Henchman24]

More FUD. What evidence do you have for your implication that they're mining with customer ASIC units? Any at all? Nooooope. But don't let that get in the way of you posting your bullshit.

That's not what he's saying at all.

That was exactly what he was implying.  Are you really this obtuse?  Wait...don't answer that last question.   

[Xian01]

More FUD. What evidence do you have for your implication that they're mining with customer ASIC units? Any at all? Nooooope. But don't let that get in the way of you posting your bullshit.

That's not what he's saying at all.

That was exactly what he was implying.  Are you really this obtuse?  Wait...don't answer that last question.   

More name calling ? Good lord. I took that to read by the time network difficulty is 100M, BFL will be in a position to ship in volume, but perhaps I am obtuse.

[SLok]

More FUD. What evidence do you have for your implication that they're mining with customer ASIC units? Any at all? Nooooope. But don't let that get in the way of you posting your bullshit.

That's not what he's saying at all. Welcome to my ignore list. Your contributions to this thread have now become nonsensical.

Let me fix that for you...

Most companies don't like to do business with customers who are a pain in the ass. Contractors weed out bad customers all the time by providing high estimates to customers who seem like they will be a real pain the ass.

What's the rush when mining with asics is this proffitable? Just throw some water on the fire over on the bitcoitalk forums to get them to shut up for another couple weeks. If their are any bad ones, just give them refunds so they will stop giving us a bad reputation. This way we can keep the preorders rolling in.

I'm so glad I wasn't around here during the initial preorder time. I'd be furious with bfl. I bet when the difficulty jumps to 100,000,000 those asics are going to fly out the doors of bfl.

Then explain this sentence?

[Xian01]

Let me fix that for you...

 Fair enough. A misinterpretation on my part. I find the accusation that BFL is mining with their own hardware right now for profit as a bit hard to believe. That would require them to have volume of product to ship with; something they seemingly do not have yet, nor are in a position to divulge more accurate shipping details to their customers.

 If they want to mine with all their ASICs and only trickle them out to customers, there is nothing stopping them I suppose.

[KGambler]

Let me fix that for you...

 Fair enough. A misinterpretation on my part. I find the accusation that BFL is mining with their own hardware right now for profit as a bit hard to believe. That would require them to have volume of product to ship with; something they seemingly do not have yet, nor are in a position to divulge more accurate shipping details to their customers.

 If they want to mine with all their ASICs and only trickle them out to customers, there is nothing stopping them I suppose.

I don't think he meant that, but I am not sure.  I took it to mean that with ASIC mining being so profitable, GREED will keep the suckers on the hook as the months continue to roll by.  I think you have to read the whole paragraph to get the full meaning.

I could be wrong.

[erschiessen]

Let me fix that for you...

 Fair enough. A misinterpretation on my part. I find the accusation that BFL is mining with their own hardware right now for profit as a bit hard to believe. That would require them to have volume of product to ship with; something they seemingly do not have yet, nor are in a position to divulge more accurate shipping details to their customers.

 If they want to mine with all their ASICs and only trickle them out to customers, there is nothing stopping them I suppose.

I don't think he meant that, but I am not sure.  I took it to mean that with ASIC mining being so profitable, GREED will keep the suckers on the hook as the months continue to roll by.  I think you have to read the whole paragraph to get the full meaning.

I could be wrong.

That's how I understood it.

[KGambler]

One thing is for sure, putting wrenchmonkey on ignore is the way to go.  He's filled this thread with nonsense, bad advice and worse "logic".  And it's pretty likely he has some kind of personal attachment to BFL.

[ThatDGuy]

Let me fix that for you...

 Fair enough. A misinterpretation on my part. I find the accusation that BFL is mining with their own hardware right now for profit as a bit hard to believe. That would require them to have volume of product to ship with; something they seemingly do not have yet, nor are in a position to divulge more accurate shipping details to their customers.

 If they want to mine with all their ASICs and only trickle them out to customers, there is nothing stopping them I suppose.

BFL has plenty of motivation to ship their product instead of mine with them: future profits.

ASICMINER is killing it right now because of the time delays that BFL has already incurred.  This has lost BFL sales and future profits. people are paying 2BTC a pop for USB miners that do 300 MH/s right now.

Avalon continues to ship as well, and are now shipping their chips which people are ordering on their own to build custom ASIC units.  2-3 months and there will be users on this forum that are likely able to produce them.  Already and surely by then there will be plenty of people who can get refunds and can go this route.

Meanwhile if BFL actually was able to ship at volume they would have a huge advantage and every $ or BTC going to these companies and folks over the next 6 months would be largely going to them.

So the question is, if you had 100 5 gh/s units ready to sell for $247.00 each right now, and selling them would get you a huge chunk of the market share coming up, why would you be mining with them to generate ~$2,700 a day in Bitcoin?

[KGambler]

Let me fix that for you...

 Fair enough. A misinterpretation on my part. I find the accusation that BFL is mining with their own hardware right now for profit as a bit hard to believe. That would require them to have volume of product to ship with; something they seemingly do not have yet, nor are in a position to divulge more accurate shipping details to their customers.

 If they want to mine with all their ASICs and only trickle them out to customers, there is nothing stopping them I suppose.

BFL has plenty of motivation to ship their product instead of mine with them: future profits.

ASICMINER is killing it right now because of the time delays that BFL has already incurred.  This has lost BFL sales and future profits. people are paying 2BTC a pop for USB miners that do 300 MH/s right now.

Avalon continues to ship as well, and are now shipping their chips which people are ordering on their own to build custom ASIC units.  2-3 months and there will be users on this forum that are likely able to produce them.  Already and surely by then there will be plenty of people who can get refunds and can go this route.

Meanwhile if BFL actually was able to ship at volume they would have a huge advantage and every $ or BTC going to these companies and folks over the next 6 months would be largely going to them.

So the question is, if you had 100 5 gh/s units ready to sell for $247.00 each right now, and selling them would get you a huge chunk of the market share coming up, why would you be mining with them to generate ~$2,700 a day in Bitcoin?

If they don't ship soon, they will be out of business.

[Henchman24]

One thing is for sure, putting wrenchmonkey on ignore is the way to go.  He's filled this thread with nonsense, bad advice and worse "logic".  And it's pretty likely he has some kind of personal attachment to BFL.

Nah, you're not even close to being objective.

wrenchmonkey's posts have been calm, rational, logical and fact-filled.

He has systematically bitch-slapped the trolls on pretty much every exchange.

Your last sentence makes it clear you shouldn't be taken seriously anyway, poo-flinger.  It's just another baseless jab, an attempt to provoke rather than debate.

[erschiessen]

The real issue is the lack of business acumen from BFL.
Why didn't they hire a real friggin ASIC design engineer?
They had $Millions$ for almost a whole friggin year with absolutely very little to show for the investment of thousands of customers.

They worry about the income stream more than the product.
If they just built the friggin product, the income stream would be there in full force.

It shows, IMO, that the scammers are in charge, they can't change their spots.
'"F" the customers, where is our next batch of suckers going to come from if folks like these tards at Bitcointalk keep acting all uppity and want us to actually make shit?'

[KGambler]

One thing is for sure, putting wrenchmonkey on ignore is the way to go.  He's filled this thread with nonsense, bad advice and worse "logic".  And it's pretty likely he has some kind of personal attachment to BFL.

Nah, you're not even close to being objective.

wrenchmonkey's posts have been calm, rational, logical and fact-filled.

He has systematically bitch-slapped the trolls on pretty much every exchange.

Your last sentence makes it clear you shouldn't be taken seriously anyway, poo-flinger.  It's just another baseless jab, an attempt to provoke rather than debate.

"Trolls"?  What are you even talking about?  What "trolls"?  People who don't trust a company which has lied repeatedly and outrageously are all "trolls"?  And the company just happens to be run by a convicted con artist...  I guess this entire board is just "trolls".  Makes sense.

He has not been calm, nor rational, nor logical.  He's has been a vindictive, condescending D-bag.  He's lied and mislead.  His opinions on how to conduct a business are infantile.  It's small wonder that people actually suspect he is Josh Zerlan.

[k9quaint]

So the question is, if you had 100 5 gh/s units ready to sell for $247.00 each right now, and selling them would get you a huge chunk of the market share coming up, why would you be mining with them to generate ~$2,700 a day in Bitcoin?

500 GH/s will get your roughly 0.6% of the bitcoin network. The Bitcoin network is dominated by Avalon and ASICMiner. Their devices together could easily account for over 50% of the hash rate now that Avalon is shipping batch 2.

Also, BFL had to include twice as many chips as planned in order to get their advertised hash rate. If they are doing small batches of chips (100 or so) on an MPW prototype run, their chips are quite expensive ($50-100) and that would eat their margins (thus explaining their price hike on Jalapenos). If they are only making $50 per device, then $2700 a day looks good. Especially if they are in a cash crunch.

Personally, I don't think BFL has enough units working to make that much.

[wrenchmonkey]

One thing is for sure, putting wrenchmonkey on ignore is the way to go.  He's filled this thread with nonsense, bad advice and worse "logic".  And it's pretty likely he has some kind of personal attachment to BFL.

Nah, you're not even close to being objective.

wrenchmonkey's posts have been calm, rational, logical and fact-filled.

He has systematically bitch-slapped the trolls on pretty much every exchange.

Your last sentence makes it clear you shouldn't be taken seriously anyway, poo-flinger.  It's just another baseless jab, an attempt to provoke rather than debate.

"Trolls"?  What are you even talking about?  What "trolls"?  People who don't trust a company which has lied repeatedly and outrageously are all "trolls"?  And the company just happens to be run by a convicted con artist...  I guess this entire board is just "trolls".  Makes sense.

He has not been calm, nor rational, nor logical.  He's has been a vindictive, condescending D-bag.  He's lied and mislead.  His opinions on how to conduct a business are infantile.  It's small wonder that people actually suspect he is Josh Zerlan.

No, the trolls are the people who have made a habit of trashing BFL. I don't know how many times I can say this. This thread is now over 14 pages, which appears to be too much for some people to read/comprehend, before diving in.

When have I lost my calm? What have I said that's not rational or logical?

I'm not being vindictive, though I agree with the assessment of being condescending. Some people are just so incapable of rational conversation, I just have to give them a little slap.

It's like trying to have a discussion with a room full of distracted 6-year-olds, who barely speak english, and won't stop picking their butts. The difference being, slapping 6-year-olds is frowned upon. Textual bitch-slapping of man-children is still kosher, however.

When have I "lied and mislead"? Having an opinion that differs from yours is not "lying" or "misleading".

[PuertoLibre]

$4,698.00 credited to my Paypal account, and moved out to my bank.

What an absolutely incredible ride. Bravo Butterfly Labs.

You know who I really feel bad for ? It's Jody She's on the front line of all this, just doing as she's told.

Now... it's time to buy some popcorn with that refund money.

Consider yourself lucky...you got out before the collapse. (future prediction of mine)

[Henchman24]

One thing is for sure, putting wrenchmonkey on ignore is the way to go.  He's filled this thread with nonsense, bad advice and worse "logic".  And it's pretty likely he has some kind of personal attachment to BFL.

Nah, you're not even close to being objective.

wrenchmonkey's posts have been calm, rational, logical and fact-filled.

He has systematically bitch-slapped the trolls on pretty much every exchange.

Your last sentence makes it clear you shouldn't be taken seriously anyway, poo-flinger.  It's just another baseless jab, an attempt to provoke rather than debate.

"Trolls"?  What are you even talking about?  What "trolls"?  People who don't trust a company which has lied repeatedly and outrageously are all "trolls"?  And the company just happens to be run by a convicted con artist...  I guess this entire board is just "trolls".  Makes sense.

He has not been calm, nor rational, nor logical.  He's has been a vindictive, condescending D-bag.  He's lied and mislead.  His opinions on how to conduct a business are infantile.  It's small wonder that people actually suspect he is Josh Zerlan.

The distinction between troll and validly frustrated customer has been made many times, even in this very thread.  I'm not about to rehash that with you.

Obviously I do not agree with the rest of your spew.