Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[PuertoLibre]

"There has been a misunderstanding, my venting has been mistaken as not wanting the products I ordered, please keep my orders in place." or was that insulting enough/final straw kind of deal

This is pretty much exactly what happened; I responded back saying I was not interested in, nor did I ask for a refund.

When Xian told them he didn't want a refund, they forced it on him by "terminating" their relationship with him. They didn't offer any choice.

[rograz]

A chip that can do ~2GH can't be used to make a device that needs 2 chips that can each do 2.5GH.

Probably the opposite if they decide to do something like this. They are stuck with chips that cant go high enough to end up in singles/little singles but can do more than 2.5Gh/s so why not offer people a factory OC, all it would cost them is another firmware version.

[nottm28]

"There has been a misunderstanding, my venting has been mistaken as not wanting the products I ordered, please keep my orders in place." or was that insulting enough/final straw kind of deal

This is pretty much exactly what happened; I responded back saying I was not interested in, nor did I ask for a refund.

When Xian told them he didn't want a refund, they forced it on him by "terminating" their relationship with him. They didn't offer any choice.

Nor would I offer any choice if one of my customers slated me so publically, so often. I'd give them their money back and be done with them...

[Bicknellski]

"There has been a misunderstanding, my venting has been mistaken as not wanting the products I ordered, please keep my orders in place." or was that insulting enough/final straw kind of deal

This is pretty much exactly what happened; I responded back saying I was not interested in, nor did I ask for a refund.

When Xian told them he didn't want a refund, they forced it on him by "terminating" their relationship with him. They didn't offer any choice.

I get such a warm and fuzzy feeling from BFL, don't you?

[PuertoLibre]

"There has been a misunderstanding, my venting has been mistaken as not wanting the products I ordered, please keep my orders in place." or was that insulting enough/final straw kind of deal

This is pretty much exactly what happened; I responded back saying I was not interested in, nor did I ask for a refund.

When Xian told them he didn't want a refund, they forced it on him by "terminating" their relationship with him. They didn't offer any choice.

Nor would I offer any choice if one of my customers slated me so publically, so often. I'd give them their money back and be done with them...

So you support the position that customers who complain should be refunded without seeking or opting in to a refund?

The reality distortion field around you is so intense that I think I can see the back of my own head.

--------------

Lets say you really do support this position. Then when should a customer legitimately complain, nottm28? Are you the type of person that only sees things in black and white?

===========
Days waiting: 190+

Loop Resolution:

IF complain,

Then, issue refund.

Else, remain silent.

END Loop.

[Syke]

Nor would I offer any choice if one of my customers slated me so publically, so often. I'd give them their money back and be done with them...

Let me know what business you run, so I can stay far away from it.

[Endlessa]

So you support the position that customers who complain should be refunded without seeking or opting in to a refund?

The reality distortion field around you is so intense that I think I can see the back of my own head.

--------------

Lets say you really do support this position. Then when should a customer legitimately complain, nottm28? Are you the type of person that only sees things in black and white?

===========
Days waiting: 190+

Loop Resolution:

IF complain,

Then, issue refund.

Else, remain silent.

END Loop.

It's not about complaining, it's about being abusive and damaging to their business.  They tolerate lots of complaining.  In forums, shout box, etc.  but if I had a customer that was damaging my business, yes I'd shit kick them to the curb and never look back.  So Yes, I support them in their decision and freedom to choose what kinds of people they want to do business with. . ..It's shocking to me that in a deregulated free market supportive community such as bitcoin, so many people would raise a stink eye.  Is it fair? no, but tough tits, free market isn't fair, it all choice.  I don't understand how people performing general ass-hattery (imo) seem so surprised when people respond in kind or think they are entitled to immunity.  


Again imo, suggesting to people to not purchase product or that a business is disreputable is a direct assault on their vitality.  I personally think they were being kind by politely terminating the relationship.

[DobZombie]

TL;DR: Josh "Inaba" Zerlan, COO of Butterfly Labs, taunts Bitcointalk forum members. I call him out on his behavior in an incendiary fashion. He tells Jody to cancel my orders (#s 2030, 2158 & 100033486). Check posting history. Is this the kind of company you want to be doing business with in America ?

I am absolutely appalled at that. Totally bloody disgusted.

[Endlessa]

TL;DR: Josh "Inaba" Zerlan, COO of Butterfly Labs, taunts Bitcointalk forum members. I call him out on his behavior in an incendiary fashion. He tells Jody to cancel my orders (#s 2030, 2158 & 100033486). Check posting history. Is this the kind of company you want to be doing business with in America ?

I am absolutely appalled at that. Totally bloody disgusted.

I find it appalling and hypocritical, that Xian, after coming into shoutbox begging to keep his order and telling BFL he's deleting  all posts he, himself, referred to as inflammatory against bfl (not josh), wants to run around stirring the pot. All the while, only confirming that BFL's decision was a good one.  Then props himself up as the "big" BFL martyr righteously standing up for the loyal customer, while spewing conspiracy theories and shouting "SCAM" from the four corners of the forums.  the whole thing is ridiculous and absurd (imo).

[Xian01]

So you support the position that customers who complain should be refunded without seeking or opting in to a refund?

The reality distortion field around you is so intense that I think I can see the back of my own head.

--------------

Lets say you really do support this position. Then when should a customer legitimately complain, nottm28? Are you the type of person that only sees things in black and white?

===========
Days waiting: 190+

Loop Resolution:

IF complain,

Then, issue refund.

Else, remain silent.

END Loop.

It's not about complaining, it's about being abusive and damaging to their business.  They tolerate lots of complaining.  In forums, shout box, etc.  but if I had a customer that was damaging my business, yes I'd shit kick them to the curb and never look back.  So Yes, I support them in their decision and freedom to choose what kinds of people they want to do business with. . ..It's shocking to me that in a deregulated free market supportive community such as bitcoin, so many people would raise a stink eye.  Is it fair? no, but tough tits, free market isn't fair, it all choice.  I don't understand how people performing general ass-hattery (imo) seem so surprised when people respond in kind or think they are entitled to immunity.  

Again imo, suggesting to people to not purchase product or that a business is disreputable is a direct assault on their vitality.  I personally think they were being kind by politely terminating the relationship.

Josh has flat out stated these forums are not important to their business and has trolled and been abusive to their customers here.

 Please reconcile that for me. Or is that yet another one of his lies ?

[mezzomix]

It's not about complaining, it's about being abusive and damaging to their business.

What's BFLs business? It's definitely not building and shipping ASIC miners to customers. Maybe it's collecting money and telling customers fairy tales?!

[Xian01]

I find it appalling and hypocritical, that Xian, after coming into shoutbox begging to keep his order and telling BFL he's deleting  all posts he, himself, referred to as inflammatory against bfl (not josh), wants to run around stirring the pot. All the while, only confirming that BFL's decision was a good one.

To be blunt, Josh started it. I just called him out in his behavior. To see the COO of a company I gave almost $5k USD in preorders to, acting the way he did, was something I have never experienced before. It is not normal. I've already admitted I overreacted in retrospect. I can't change the past.

Then props himself up as the "big" BFL martyr righteously standing up for the loyal customer, while spewing conspiracy theories and shouting "SCAM" from the four corners of the forums.  the whole thing is ridiculous and absurd (imo).

Absolutely false. I have never claimed BFL was a scam.

[Endlessa]

Josh has flat out stated these forums are not important to their business and has trolled and been abusive to their customers here.

 Please reconcile that for me. Or is that yet another one of his lies ?

Seriously Xian, and I'm not defending Josh's words, your gonna sit here and pretend you weren't aware that you were poking an angry bear?   In addition, as has been pointed out to me, that account is Josh's personal account, not him being a rep for BFL.  So worst case, you were trolling each other.  It still doesn't explain the attacks against the company itself implied or otherwise.  When your buying a product from a company it has to be balanced with mutually beneficial.  I've personally read many of your statements before and after "the event" and I have to say it doesn't appear they were getting much out of the deal.  

Here's good ways to talk to people you have a business relationship with (since you appear to have missed that part of being decent):

"I'm so fucking frustrated with all the waiting and missed deadlines, but full disclosure I have orders and I"m keep them.  They will deliver eventually"

bad ways:

"I'm sick of all these lies!" "These people deal with criminals!" "BFL is horrible!"




when you figure out the difference try remembering it.   You maybe "anonymous" on the internet, but they aren't. They've probably lost more money with you than they refunded. It's not balanced.

[PuertoLibre]

So you support the position that customers who complain should be refunded without seeking or opting in to a refund?

The reality distortion field around you is so intense that I think I can see the back of my own head.

--------------

Lets say you really do support this position. Then when should a customer legitimately complain, nottm28? Are you the type of person that only sees things in black and white?

===========
Days waiting: 190+

Loop Resolution:

IF complain,

Then, issue refund.

Else, remain silent.

END Loop.

It's not about complaining, it's about being abusive and damaging to their business.  They tolerate lots of complaining.  In forums, shout box, etc.  but if I had a customer that was damaging my business, yes I'd shit kick them to the curb and never look back.

You overlook one obvious issue, the customer didn't fail the process.

The company itself failed to produce the product the customer already paid for...which results in the customer complaining. Not because the customer wants a refund, they want the product.

So the shit bowl is caused by BFL failing (repeatedly) to meet its obligations. The response so far is to be vengeful to the customer and (with a chorus of BFL suckups) to blame the customer as somehow being less intelligent.

(See the blog post from Jody on people being required to jump from a plane first or openly stating that they ignore all ("negative") emails.)

I take it you all see nothing wrong with this picture?

So Yes, I support them in their decision and freedom to choose what kinds of people they want to do business with.

You mean failed to do buisness with.

. ..It's shocking to me that in a deregulated free market supportive community such as bitcoin, so many people would raise a stink eye.

Did you miss the part of the 11 months of waiting?

Is it fair? no, but tough tits, free market isn't fair, it all choice.  I don't understand how people performing general ass-hattery (imo) seem so surprised when people respond in kind or think they are entitled to immunity.  

The free market has nothing to do with fairness. It has everything to do with supply and demand plus competition.

What an illogical position....or statement....to make....SIGH

They are entitled, to their purchased product. Cowardice is failing to meet those after repeatedly missing objectives, being aware of it, then blaming your customer for your own inability to produce purchased product.

Again imo, suggesting to people to not purchase product or that a business is disreputable is a direct assault on their vitality.  I personally think they were being kind by politely terminating the relationship.

Vitality?

You do realize the problem is the company fails to deliver the product to it's customers within a reasonable time frame. That alone speaks to it's vitality. The facts testify to the company and it's performance. The only thing the customer is doing is selecting which words to represent that.

[PuertoLibre]

It's not about complaining, it's about being abusive and damaging to their business.

What's BFLs business? It's definitely not building and shipping ASIC miners to customers. Maybe it's collecting money and telling customers fairy tales to fook off?!

Corrected it for you.

[Endlessa]

Absolutely false. I have never claimed BFL was a scam.

You implied it.  . and been supportive of people saying it.  Do I really need to link the "Newbie" thread?  And the history of your comments is misleading, since you've already stating you were deleting posts while you were begging to get your orders back.  And threatening a lawsuit at the same time (wtf. . .. how did you think that would end). . . .And created this thread. .. all the while in shoutbox begging to get your units.

[k9quaint]

A chip that can do ~2GH can't be used to make a device that needs 2 chips that can each do 2.5GH.

Probably the opposite if they decide to do something like this. They are stuck with chips that cant go high enough to end up in singles/little singles but can do more than 2.5Gh/s so why not offer people a factory OC, all it would cost them is another firmware version.

The whole issue has been the chips could not go fast enough. If all they had to do was clock them higher and they worked, BFL would have shipped months ago.

[PuertoLibre]

Absolutely false. I have never claimed BFL was a scam.

You implied it.  . and been supportive of people saying it.  Do I really need to link the "Newbie" thread?  And the history of your comments is misleading, since you've already stating you were deleting posts while you were begging to get your orders back.  And threatening a lawsuit at the same time (wtf. . .. how did you think that would end). . . .And created this thread. .. all the while in shoutbox begging to get your units.

Ugh,

Alright, so if I ran a company like BFL. I guess Endlessa would tell me I did the right thing by giving Xian his money back, despite having legitimate complaints and openly stating various recourses for failing to meet my obligations to deliver his purchased product in a reasonable time frame.

[Endlessa]

So you support the position that customers who complain should be refunded without seeking or opting in to a refund?

The reality distortion field around you is so intense that I think I can see the back of my own head.

--------------

Lets say you really do support this position. Then when should a customer legitimately complain, nottm28? Are you the type of person that only sees things in black and white?

===========
Days waiting: 190+

Loop Resolution:

IF complain,

Then, issue refund.

Else, remain silent.

END Loop.

It's not about complaining, it's about being abusive and damaging to their business.  They tolerate lots of complaining.  In forums, shout box, etc.  but if I had a customer that was damaging my business, yes I'd shit kick them to the curb and never look back.

You overlook one obvious issue, the customer didn't fail the process.

The company itself failed to produce the product the customer already paid for...which results in the customer complaining. Not because the customer wants a refund, they want the product.

So the shit bowl is caused by BFL failing (repeatedly) to meet its obligations. The response so far is to be vengeful to the customer and (with a chorus of BFL suckups) to blame the customer as somehow being less intelligent.

(See the blog post from Jody on people being required to jump from a plane first or openly stating that they ignore all ("negative") emails.)

I take it you all see nothing wrong with this picture?

So Yes, I support them in their decision and freedom to choose what kinds of people they want to do business with.

You mean failed to do buisness with.

. ..It's shocking to me that in a deregulated free market supportive community such as bitcoin, so many people would raise a stink eye.

Did you miss the part of the 11 months of waiting?

Is it fair? no, but tough tits, free market isn't fair, it all choice.  I don't understand how people performing general ass-hattery (imo) seem so surprised when people respond in kind or think they are entitled to immunity.  

The free market has nothing to do with fairness. It has everything to do with supply and demand plus competition.

What an illogical position....or statement....to make....SIGH

They are entitled, to their purchased product. Cowardice is failing to meet those after repeatedly missing objectives, being aware of it, then blaming your customer for your own inability to produce purchased product.

Again imo, suggesting to people to not purchase product or that a business is disreputable is a direct assault on their vitality.  I personally think they were being kind by politely terminating the relationship.

Vitality?

You do realize the problem is the company fails to deliver the product to it's customers within a reasonable time frame. That alone speaks to it's vitality. The facts testify to the company and it's performance. The only thing the customer is doing is selecting which words to represent that.

There was always a refund. . .does it suck yes. . . .this is a dead horse. . .by all means keep kicking it. . ..

They didn't blame him for not delivering. ..they lost more money than anybody by missing their deadlines. ..and they are well aware of it and have acknowledged it on several occassions, at least to civil people. Nobody is claiming they're perfect by any shape of the imagination, not even BFL.  

[Endlessa]

Absolutely false. I have never claimed BFL was a scam.

You implied it.  . and been supportive of people saying it.  Do I really need to link the "Newbie" thread?  And the history of your comments is misleading, since you've already stating you were deleting posts while you were begging to get your orders back.  And threatening a lawsuit at the same time (wtf. . .. how did you think that would end). . . .And created this thread. .. all the while in shoutbox begging to get your units.

Ugh,

Alright, so if I ran a company like BFL. I guess Endlessa would tell me I did the right thing by giving Xian his money back, despite having legitimate complaints and openly stating various recourses for failing to meet my obligations to deliver his purchased product in a reasonable time frame.

Again it has nothing to do with that.  Nobody said don't complain. Not even me.  I said don't abuse (again I'm not talking about Josh, I'm talking about BFL).

And yes I would say you did the right thing, the damage being done was not the worth the money he was paying for his pittance of product.

IMO

Edit: Don't abuse a company you want to sell you things. If you want to abuse them cancel your order, then by all means free speech and what not