Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[Bicknellski]

Sorry Xian, it seems your thread has been taken over by the sockpuppet army.

Sock puppets.. not real people .. he is the victim.. Okey Dokey.

There are many victims of Sonny Vleisides and his merry band of crooks. BFL is just now managing to ship a few Jalapeno v0.5's to people that ordered in June of 2012, despite the numerous assurance that BFL had honest abe "scheduled shipments" several times over the past 11 months. The lies are too numerous to count.

None of these newbie accounts defending BFL are even old enough to have been created back when BFL's COO Inblahblah was attacking Tom of BTCFPGA for being too vague about his power specs and insisting that BFL's were solid. Specs that were obviously never measured as BFL had zero chips, by their own admission. That, like nearly everything else Josh Zerlan says turned out to not be true. That supposedly solid power spec of 1w/Gh/s was just more fairy dust nonsense designed to suck the life out of BFL's legitimate competition and trap pre-order funds into a constantly evolving pyramid scam of orders.

Tom has a scammer tag for failure to deliver & deceit, Josh's is long long overdue.

Yifu Guo says:



And the rest of the forum adds:

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I am afraid you are incorrect. Contracts of sale cannot be unilaterally cancelled unless the contract explicitly allows for doing so.

Just imagine that we agree today that I would deliver you 10 bushels of wheat in 3 months for a given price. If 2 months later the price goes up, I cannot unilaterally cancel the contract and give you a refund.

As for damages, one can calculate the earning capabilities of the item that was ordered, and one can seek compensation for a reasonable period (few years) of use. It would be several thousand dollars at the very least.

What you've described is in fact a very specific type of sales contract usually called a "forward contract" - If the buyer could produce such a contact then there would be a legitimate case for damages incurred. However, never was any such contract offered by BFL... so I doubt the OP has such.

I respectfully disagree with what you say.  What is special about a "forward contract" is that the delivery may be well in the future, and in most cases so is the payment.

In the case of BFL, they accepted payment now, and promise to deliver. Failure to deliver on time (or within reasonable time) is a breach of contract.

For example, if I sell you my car, and you pay me the price, then I cannot unilaterally change my mind, and simply give you back your money. I will also have to pay you all damages that you incurred from my failure to honour the contract.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract#Remedies_for_breach_of_contract and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_contract

No .. you sign a sales contract which specifies the price and the contract which details the terms of the sale.. usually the contract is binding upon two conditions 1) the money being paid 2) the car being taken.  Both of which are considered binding separately and indivisibly . i.e. if you take the car you are required to pay the money or if you take the money you are going to take the car.

So .. if condition 1 is not met then condition 2 cannot be met either.. i.e. if you don't actually have the car in hand you can't be expected to hand over the money. To be even less blunt .. you can't demand possession of something just because you have the money in hand to pay for it.

Logic is funny mother fucker .. it works both ways .. somehow.. bastard

Josh's Tourette's syndrome is kicking into high gear.

[k9quaint]

Josh's Tourette's syndrome is kicking into high gear.

I think Josh might have realized what a blunder it was to unilaterally cancel the contract with Xian. That contract was a forward contract that has appreciated in value (5x the value by some claims) and Xian was only compensated for the face value of the forward contract. The damages would be the difference between the face value and the current market value of the forward contract (roughly $20,000 by some estimates). Xian might also get to subpoena Butterfly's financial records and depose their corporate officers which might yield a ton of juicy tidbits for analysis.

Any judge would take this case.

Xian owes nottm28 a debt of gratitude for pointing out how much more valuable that contract is now.

[Bicknellski]

I am afraid you are incorrect. Contracts of sale cannot be unilaterally cancelled unless the contract explicitly allows for doing so.

Just imagine that we agree today that I would deliver you 10 bushels of wheat in 3 months for a given price. If 2 months later the price goes up, I cannot unilaterally cancel the contract and give you a refund.

As for damages, one can calculate the earning capabilities of the item that was ordered, and one can seek compensation for a reasonable period (few years) of use. It would be several thousand dollars at the very least.

What you've described is in fact a very specific type of sales contract usually called a "forward contract" - If the buyer could produce such a contact then there would be a legitimate case for damages incurred. However, never was any such contract offered by BFL... so I doubt the OP has such.

I respectfully disagree with what you say.  What is special about a "forward contract" is that the delivery may be well in the future, and in most cases so is the payment.

In the case of BFL, they accepted payment now, and promise to deliver. Failure to deliver on time (or within reasonable time) is a breach of contract.

For example, if I sell you my car, and you pay me the price, then I cannot unilaterally change my mind, and simply give you back your money. I will also have to pay you all damages that you incurred from my failure to honour the contract.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract#Remedies_for_breach_of_contract and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_contract

No .. you sign a sales contract which specifies the price and the contract which details the terms of the sale.. usually the contract is binding upon two conditions 1) the money being paid 2) the car being taken.  Both of which are considered binding separately and indivisibly . i.e. if you take the car you are required to pay the money or if you take the money you are going to take the car.

So .. if condition 1 is not met then condition 2 cannot be met either.. i.e. if you don't actually have the car in hand you can't be expected to hand over the money. To be even less blunt .. you can't demand possession of something just because you have the money in hand to pay for it.

Logic is funny mother fucker .. it works both ways .. somehow.. bastard

Josh's Tourette's syndrome is kicking into high gear.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

"Josh, you coming to bed?"

"How many times do I have tell you, cocksucker, that I'm not J...? Oops! Sorry, dear."

"No problem, dear. At least you got the cocksucker part right--for once. Tell Luke Jr. I said hey. And don't forget to walk the poodle."

Quick aside: Can you imagine Josh walking that rainbow colored poodle in his neighborhood.  I bet the neighbors talk.

[YipYip]

Josh's Tourette's syndrome is kicking into high gear.

I think Josh might have realized what a blunder it was to unilaterally cancel the contract with Xian. That contract was a forward contract that has appreciated in value (5x the value by some claims) and Xian was only compensated for the face value of the forward contract. The damages would be the difference between the face value and the current market value of the forward contract (roughly $20,000 by some estimates). Xian might also get to subpoena Butterfly's financial records and depose their corporate officers which might yield a ton of juicy tidbits for analysis.

Any judge would take this case.

Xian owes nottm28 a debt of gratitude for pointing out how much more valuable that contract is now.

Sorry just dropped in to see how Josh's sockpuppet army are going

The best thing that Xian can do is follow through with this complaint....!!

These frauds can threaten and pretend to MIS-REPRESENT the law but .... what they have done will cost them dearly !!!

The moment they started believeing in their own bullshit and self importance is where they have made the gravest of mistakes...

As pointed out this error will cost them dearly .. this is the ultimate remedy to these behaviors.....all the posturing and hot air will be for naught... when u get fined for 100k-200k for bad busness practice is the slow but eventual method that keeps our system honest from the frauds that are BFL

So Jody keep cancelling orders .. keep doing that and see what this ego tripping exercise returns to you ..

BIG FUCKING LIES I hope will last long enough for Xian to see his reward for speaking up and stating

"I do not accept this treatment"

As is every right of every customer being mis-handled by people who think they have the upper hand and cash of  the ordinary customer

[Phinnaeus Gage]

You know why it's been quiet lately?

It's SockPuppet Hour at some Kansas City pub.

[centove]

seriously the nature of argument doesn't have to adversarial

It isn't my friend. You just make it turn out that way.

Almost all the interactions I have had with you were on the basis of practices employed and ethics. Personal didn't enter into it until private information was posted. Guess by who?

By me PL .. and I am not who you think I am ..

dig deep .. you will find the answer..

Are you Spartacus?

[Xian01]

The best thing that Xian can do is follow through with this complaint....!!

These frauds can threaten and pretend to MIS-REPRESENT the law but .... what they have done will cost them dearly !!!

It's out of my hands at the moment, and hoping to hear back from the FTC and Missouri AG sometime soon.

Based on information in this thread, I really should look into meeting with a consumer advocacy lawyer next week.

[centove]

The best thing that Xian can do is follow through with this complaint....!!

These frauds can threaten and pretend to MIS-REPRESENT the law but .... what they have done will cost them dearly !!!

It's out of my hands at the moment, and hoping to hear back from the FTC and Missouri AG sometime soon.

Based on information in this thread, I really should look into meeting with a consumer advocacy lawyer next week.

Then you'll have to decide how much this is worth to you. Oh you could find a lawyer to take the case (throw enough money at a lawyer and they will do it). Then you'll have to file and sue in the local jurisdiction (Kansas City, Mo IIRC) For at most a refund of the amount paid, which you already have. Before going in front of the judge to argue they will require that the two parties attempt to resolve it between themselves, and offer an arbitrator (Jude <whoever> on TV is performing this function and turned it into a reality show). Again for the amount of the contract, implied or otherwise. Then in a year or two IF you manage to win, comes the fun of collecting said award.

I'd be really surprised if you hear back from either of those agencies within any reasonable time frame, and if it's other then a form letter that also will be surprising.

Also most seem to think that this is unprecedented that a company 'fires' an abusive customer. No it's not really that uncommon. Happens quite often actually. What has changed is the Internet gives voice to the minority that wants to bitch about it. http://<some random company name>sux.org|com|net Lotsa hits...
   

[YipYip]

The best thing that Xian can do is follow through with this complaint....!!

These frauds can threaten and pretend to MIS-REPRESENT the law but .... what they have done will cost them dearly !!!

It's out of my hands at the moment, and hoping to hear back from the FTC and Missouri AG sometime soon.

Based on information in this thread, I really should look into meeting with a consumer advocacy lawyer next week.

Then you'll have to decide how much this is worth to you. Oh you could find a lawyer to take the case (throw enough money at a lawyer and they will do it). Then you'll have to file and sue in the local jurisdiction (Kansas City, Mo IIRC) For at most a refund of the amount paid, which you already have. Before going in front of the judge to argue they will require that the two parties attempt to resolve it between themselves, and offer an arbitrator (Jude <whoever> on TV is performing this function and turned it into a reality show). Again for the amount of the contract, implied or otherwise. Then in a year or two IF you manage to win, comes the fun of collecting said award.

I'd be really surprised if you hear back from either of those agencies within any reasonable time frame, and if it's other then a form letter that also will be surprising.

Also most seem to think that this is unprecedented that a company 'fires' an abusive customer. No it's not really that uncommon. Happens quite often actually. What has changed is the Internet gives voice to the minority that wants to bitch about it. http://<some random company name>sux.org|com|net Lotsa hits...
   

It is not a simple matter but it will not hurt to speak to someone to find out there opinion about it.... Also i think there are Fair Trade agency's (we have in australia maybe not in US) where it is against the law to do such things ..i.e you make a formal complaint

If he is just suing them for lost earnings then yes that is a mountain to climb etc

[drlukacs]

For example, if I sell you my car, and you pay me the price, then I cannot unilaterally change my mind, and simply give you back your money. I will also have to pay you all damages that you incurred from my failure to honour the contract.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract#Remedies_for_breach_of_contract and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_contract

No .. you sign a sales contract which specifies the price and the contract which details the terms of the sale.. usually the contract is binding upon two conditions 1) the money being paid 2) the car being taken.  Both of which are considered binding separately and indivisibly . i.e. if you take the car you are required to pay the money or if you take the money you are going to take the car.

So .. if condition 1 is not met then condition 2 cannot be met either.. i.e. if you don't actually have the car in hand you can't be expected to hand over the money. To be even less blunt .. you can't demand possession of something just because you have the money in hand to pay for it.

You seem to be confusing the creation (conclusion) of a contract with its performance.

Contract is created by offer and acceptance, whether in writing or orally. Performance/delivery is an entirely different issue. A good starting point to understand contract law might be the Sales of Goods Act of any Canadian province, which mostly codifies the common law.

Here is another great explanation of how contracts work (take from http://www.bbb.org/canada/legal-contracts-/)

Legal - Contracts

The law of contracts is a vast subject area and is relevant to almost all areas of the law. A contract is an agreement between two or more parties which the courts may enforce. A binding contract must involve "offer and acceptance". They are legally binding once signed and cannot be cancelled unless there has been:

    misrepresentation
    fraud
    duress
    a clause that allows you to cancel
    a mutual agreement to cancel

[ISAWHIM]

The reason they "took pre-orders", was because banks and investors refused to give them a loan, if they even tried to get a loan. Why get a loan, where you have to pay interest, when you can get an interest-free, and possibly not have to even pay it back, from your peers? (Because of Josh's involvement.)

The reason they would have ALSO been denied a loan, logically, if they actually applied, would be because of this...
1: Only the first few "units" would have high returns. Each subsequent unit, after they had lowered the hash-percentage of the existing network of miners, would continue to degrade the items future value. (Thus making them unable to pay future loan debit.)
2: People would instantly catch-on, if these units were actually made "all at once", and were to become "available at the _____ price", thus demanding an exponential hike in price that would cause ALL competition to be able to afford to manufacture them cheaper than any purchase price. (Thus making them unable to pay future loan debit.)
3: They would realize that the "volume of transactions", if not expanded to match the "processing speed of the units delivered/sold", would translate into the units being "offline more than they would be online, thus, earning "zero income" for those who had made a purchase... Thus, stopping all future purchases from being made. (Thus making them unable to pay future loan debit.)

Soooooo

Josh decided to just take everyone's actual money now, and stick everyone with the debit, while the "majority of manufactured machines power", would be used for themselves, to consume the majority of the market of "produced coins", while everyone watched the market turn into a pack-man pie-chart, with no ability to stop the consumption and cash-out. While waiting for everyone to simply ask for a refund, offering those who waited the longest, the refunds from money coming in for new pre-orders... until the pre-orders stop coming in...

Then he will leave town with all the cash, which I am sure he is hiding from the suckers that choose to follow him, leaving them with the legal debit that he has "worked his hand out of"...

Unless, "josh" is just the obvious scape-goat... and the other guys at BFL are simply setting him up for the fall... and THEY are the ones taking the money, and making it look like he is the one that "is going to disappear with it"... when the reality is, they are just going to make him, "disappear"... and the money will seem to do too... but josh will actually be gone, and the money will actually be in some other guys foreign bank account, with all the heat on Josh. lol....

When thieves jack thieves, it gets ugly... Double-double-double crossing. Cons work with cons. Period... Because no honest man works with a con, unless he intends to learn the con game, to use it.

[ISAWHIM]

The funny thing is... when all your eggs are in one basket... it is easy to break all the eggs at once.

1.5THs is 0THs, when it can't take orders. When it is down due to ill-code. When it is "out for repairs". When it is... um... programmed to send hashing power to a "ghost account", after rebooting, and the ghost account is owned by BFL, and it looses power, due to design.

Or it is just flat-out attacked on its publicly available network location, which it has to be on, to get work. lol...

The whole bitcoin setup was made to give large-guys squashing power over the small guys who labored and actually worked to get it running in the past. FAIL.

Same will happen with scrypt based coins in the future.

Only X amount of coins are made per day. Each new machine added to the market, takes coins from those already mining coins on the market. That simple issue alone, makes all future investments in "machines" a futile investment. (Even if the slower machines drop off, the faster machines just replace the ones that drop-off the network. Eating into their own future profit. The only way to "win" is to BE the WHOLE market... or 1/3, since being 50% is too close for comfort for anyone to use the market, due to the poor system limits and ability to "alter the market transactions", with a 51% attack.)

[k9quaint]

The best thing that Xian can do is follow through with this complaint....!!

These frauds can threaten and pretend to MIS-REPRESENT the law but .... what they have done will cost them dearly !!!

It's out of my hands at the moment, and hoping to hear back from the FTC and Missouri AG sometime soon.

Based on information in this thread, I really should look into meeting with a consumer advocacy lawyer next week.

You can file in your local jurisdiction since Butterfly Labs sells online. Ask for damages of the difference between the market value of your forward contract to purchase BFL equipment and the amount you were refunded. Forward contracts cannot be unilaterally terminated.

[Xian01]

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/167-thursday-5-23-damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-dont-update-page3.html#comments

Jody is evidently coming unhinged.

---
BFL_Jody - 05-25-2013 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by Tanoosh
Well, landed in Rome about 1970 during an airport workers strike and we had to find our luggage in the cargo hold, and Jump out with it..... not sure if that's what you had in mind......and can't figure out how to advance to next line here Anyway, hang in there folks. Just imagine the suffering family living with some of these trollers.....

You think trollers have families?

---

sinner - 05-25-2013 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by BFL_Jody
You think trollers have families?

Yea we get it.
WTF is you folks problems though?

You expect to implement a half ass production and wonder why half your customers are furious?
Lets get real for a second, even those who are patiently waiting and know that casting silly stones is not a way to advance our interests, are still very frustrated.

I defend an enterprise solution daily to customers who view themselves as future gates and jobs types, and they come at us with all sorts of ridiculous claims about our software and hardware (that they did admittedly pay waaaay too much for, but hey they are endusers, if they could have built it they would have). Yet still, with all their drama and whining, Neither I nor my company ever resorts to taunting them or belittling their concerns.

And its not like anyone is bitching about your specs or your device ... they are mad because it seems like the actual delivery to customers is the lowest priority you have. Hey its your company, what people think of you is up to you. You might not be alone in this market forever, if someone with more funding and knowhow come along to wipe the smirk off. I'm not enraged, and I dont hate ya. But I do have to cock my eyebrow at your practices and wonder...

[drlukacs]

[You can file in your local jurisdiction since Butterfly Labs sells online. Ask for damages of the difference between the market value of your forward contract to purchase BFL equipment and the amount you were refunded. Forward contracts cannot be unilaterally terminated.

There is more to be claimed, actually, because were not talking about an item whose price simply increased over time, but rather means of production -- a tool that can generate revenue. It more akin to failing to deliver a car to a taxi cab licensee. It prevents the buyer from earning.

[k9quaint]

[You can file in your local jurisdiction since Butterfly Labs sells online. Ask for damages of the difference between the market value of your forward contract to purchase BFL equipment and the amount you were refunded. Forward contracts cannot be unilaterally terminated.

There is more to be claimed, actually, because were not talking about an item whose price simply increased over time, but rather means of production -- a tool that can generate revenue. It more akin to failing to deliver a car to a taxi cab licensee. It prevents the buyer from earning.

You are correct, loss of revenue is certainly to be considered. He would need to consult a lawyer about it though.

[Endlessa]

[You can file in your local jurisdiction since Butterfly Labs sells online. Ask for damages of the difference between the market value of your forward contract to purchase BFL equipment and the amount you were refunded. Forward contracts cannot be unilaterally terminated.

There is more to be claimed, actually, because were not talking about an item whose price simply increased over time, but rather means of production -- a tool that can generate revenue. It more akin to failing to deliver a car to a taxi cab licensee. It prevents the buyer from earning.

You are correct, loss of revenue is certainly to be considered. He would need to consult a lawyer about it though.

Holy crap k9quaint, I'll already went over the facts in UCC for missouri with you.  I think you have a bad case of fish memory.  drlukacs please go back and read before you run in all cowboy shooting your guns in the air yelling "Yeehaw! look at me I'm making points and stuff!"

In the state of Missouri, once you cancel the implied contract and refund the money.  All responsibilities of both parties are terminated.  The only recourse after that is to PROVE prior breach of contract (before the cancellation).  Since the product wasn't delivered yet.  The only possible thing he could bring up is the delivery time.  With the link I previously gave showing the archived version of the website, It clearly stated that October was the "Currently scheduled" date.  This clearly makes the buyer aware that the date is not definitive, unless they lack basic reading comprehension.   The final obligation for the seller is to let them know if/when the specification of the product changes, which they did through the forums and with the confirmation of the buyers desire to continue the purchase (the recent dialog that pops up).  Now, you can be frustrated and angry and I can understand your emotions.  You can't arbitrarily say they did something illegal.  I have seen no supporting evidence of your claims.  I only see that you are angry and want to hurt them.  I'm supportive of expressing your feelings and emotions.  I'm not supportive of some distorted, trumped up, vengeful misinformation campaign.  I'm supportive of exploring consumer rights, as this is something all buyers should be aware of when purchasing products.  I'm not supportive of making crap up because you "feel" like that's what the law should be.


Edit: Just for the sake of consumer awareness, on a federal level, it is stated that by receiving a shipped product you are imply your acceptance of any changes to the specification.  From what I understand this, Missouri further states that there must be some form of direct/explicit communication.


* this is not legal advice and should not be taken as such.  If you feel you have an actual fact that disproves this is the law, by all means I'd love to explore it.

[k9quaint]

[You can file in your local jurisdiction since Butterfly Labs sells online. Ask for damages of the difference between the market value of your forward contract to purchase BFL equipment and the amount you were refunded. Forward contracts cannot be unilaterally terminated.

There is more to be claimed, actually, because were not talking about an item whose price simply increased over time, but rather means of production -- a tool that can generate revenue. It more akin to failing to deliver a car to a taxi cab licensee. It prevents the buyer from earning.

You are correct, loss of revenue is certainly to be considered. He would need to consult a lawyer about it though.

Holy crap k9quaint, I'll already went over the facts in UCC for missouri with you.  I think you have a bad case of fish memory.  drlukacs please go back and read before you run in all cowboy shooting your guns in the air yelling "Yeehaw! look at me I'm making points and stuff!"

In the state of Missouri, once you cancel the implied contract and refund the money.  All responsibilities of both parties are terminated.  The only recourse after that is to PROVE prior breach of contract (before the cancellation).  Since the product wasn't delivered yet.  The only possible thing he could bring up is the delivery time.  With the link I previously gave showing the archived version of the website, It clearly stated that October was the "Currently scheduled" date.  This clearly makes the buyer aware that the date is not definitive, unless they lack basic reading comprehension.   The final obligation for the seller is to let them know if/when the specification of the product changes, which they did through the forums and with the confirmation of the buyers desire to continue the purchase (the recent dialog that pops up).  Now, you can be frustrated and angry and I can understand your emotions.  You can't arbitrarily say they did something illegal.  I have seen no supporting evidence of your claims.  I only see that you are angry and want to hurt them.  I'm supportive of expressing your feelings and emotions.  I'm not supportive of some distorted, trumped up, vengeful misinformation campaign.  I'm supportive of exploring consumer rights, as this is something all buyers should be aware of when purchasing products.  I'm not supportive of making crap up because you "feel" like that's what the law should be.

* this is not legal advice and should not be taken as such.  If you feel you have an actual fact that disproves this is the law, by all means I'd love to explore it.

Hello again Mr. Obvious Sockpuppet is Obvious.

BFL was selling forward contracts, not sales of existing goods. Forward contracts cannot be unilaterally canceled just because one party does not want to pay the agreed price anymore. BFL can be sued by Xian for the difference between the current value of that contract and the money they refunded to him.
Xian should win effortlessly.