Mining Equipment Manufacturers

[FCTaiChi]

nice work btw, FCTaiChi 

Indeed and I agree with your Bitfury stance in the other thread

Thanks!

I'm not saying you're wrong, just would like to know where the disconnect is.

We can be both right.
Just that you're calculating difficulty increase, and I total network speed. It's easier for me to think that way.

Oh interesting, if you come back to the thread I'd like to talk about that.  I can't figure out how to make any of the network hashrate equations work.  They're coming out extremely low, but I'm just starting to mess with it, probably a multiplier I'm missing.

[ecliptic]

kncminer has like 30%+ VAT/import/etc fees onto of their listed price.

[ujka]

We can be both right.
Just that you're calculating difficulty increase, and I total network speed. It's easier for me to think that way.

Oh interesting, if you come back to the thread I'd like to talk about that.  I can't figure out how to make any of the network hashrate equations work.  They're coming out extremely low, but I'm just starting to mess with it, probably a multiplier I'm missing.

There is a formula to calculate a network hashrate out of difficulty (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty):
hashrate = 2^32/600*difficulty

Or you can try to 'predict' hashrate growth with some formula. I used future value, fv(). It's very crude formula, assumes the same, constant, increase in every step. And we know that the network doesn't behave that way - with the arrival of every new technology (first GPU, then FPGA, now ASIC), network expanded rapidly. First two times (GPU and FPGA) that growth slowed down and leveled out quickly (http://bitcoin.sipa.be/, look for exponential charts).

[FCTaiChi]

There is a formula to calculate a network hashrate out of difficulty (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty):
hashrate = 2^32/600*difficulty

But is there a way to calculate coins per day with hashrate?  None of the equations that I've found work out.  People argue, and it makes sense, that you should be able to take the total coins minted per day by everyone, compare that with the total network hashrate and your hashrate. 

your coins per day = (your hashrate / total hashrate) * total coins per day
There are many other methods I've tried, but nothing comes out even close.

Or you can try to 'predict' hashrate growth with some formula. I used future value, fv(). It's very crude formula, assumes the same, constant, increase in every step. And we know that the network doesn't behave that way - with the arrival of every new technology (first GPU, then FPGA, now ASIC), network expanded rapidly. First two times (GPU and FPGA) that growth slowed down and leveled out quickly (http://bitcoin.sipa.be/, look for exponential charts).

I was thinking of making a chart based on the release dates quoted by all the companies, and the other detective work that has been going on, then add some normal growth pattern of the network hashrate to see what is likely to happen in the next year or two.  I'm sure we could compare an even growth formula to help model the statistics.
At the moment I'm basically using that pattern on my spreadsheet..  would be nice to have something a little more realistic.  The growth could be 13%, but end up looking like 20% if a lot of the growth is weighted toward the beginning of the time period..  like you say happened with GPU and FPGA.

[FCTaiChi]

kncminer has like 30%+ VAT/import/etc fees onto of their listed price.

Hi thanks for the input.  I decided recently to not add taxes or shipping to the totals, because that can so greatly change the price in some cases that there is almost no way to put the statistics accurately.

[ecliptic]

I'd just add an * or something to note that some (or all) have no taxes listed, and that europeon manufacturers will have significnatly higher taxes.

americans aren't used to VAT

[ujka]

if I read the table correctly, for all those shipping ones, nothing is profitable for a year!

That's right. Shipping ones are either old tech (fpga), or ASICs, but with prices set so high that ROI is not possible (ASICMiner Blades).

[ujka]

.....
your coins per day = (your hashrate / total hashrate) * total coins per day

I used that formula and found to be quite correct. Total hashrate is the hashrate at the time last difficulty was calculated. Total coins per day is now at 3600 (25 btc * 1 blok every 10 minutes).
For a 5GH miner:
your coins per day = 5 / 100 000 * 3600 = 0,18 btc

[FCTaiChi]

.....
your coins per day = (your hashrate / total hashrate) * total coins per day

I used that formula and found to be quite correct. Total hashrate is the hashrate at the time last difficulty was calculated. Total coins per day is now at 3600 (25 btc * 1 blok every 10 minutes).
For a 5GH miner:
your coins per day = 5 / 100 000 * 3600 = 0,18 btc

Ok so maybe my problem is that I'm dividing by total hashes.  You calculate with MH?  I mean that does make sense as far as the numbers come out, just didn't see it coming for the equation.

if I read the table correctly, for all those shipping ones, nothing is profitable for a year!

That's right. Shipping ones are either old tech (fpga), or ASICs, but with prices set so high that ROI is not possible (ASICMiner Blades).

A couple have the ability to make it up in the second year.. but yeah it's looking like we have to wait as the big players are pushing prices up so high.  I the whole community is getting a little frustrated at being pushed aside.  I started a new project to try to get the hashing power out to the public.  reat incentives, and a

[evilscoop]

just found this thread...

watching it now, and thx for the info

[ujka]

.....
your coins per day = (your hashrate / total hashrate) * total coins per day

I used that formula and found to be quite correct. Total hashrate is the hashrate at the time last difficulty was calculated. Total coins per day is now at 3600 (25 btc * 1 blok every 10 minutes).
For a 5GH miner:
your coins per day = 5 / 100 000 * 3600 = 0,18 btc

Ok so maybe my problem is that I'm dividing by total hashes.  You calculate with MH?  I mean that does make sense as far as the numbers come out, just didn't see it coming for the equation.

Be carefull with units of measure. I'm using GH:
your coins per day = 5 GH (yours) / 100 000 GH (total) * 3600 btc = 0,18 btc

Or using difficulty, but with Hashes as units:
your coins per day = (5 000 000 000 H (yours) * 600) / (2^32 * 14 000 000 (diff)) * 3600 btc = 0,1796 btc

[FloridaBear]

This is a really nice effort. I believe the difficulty increase will average in the 13-18% range, with occasional jumps higher. Keep up the good work.

[FCTaiChi]

Be carefull with units of measure. I'm using GH:
your coins per day = 5 GH (yours) / 100 000 GH (total) * 3600 btc = 0,18 btc

Or using difficulty, but with Hashes as units:
your coins per day = (5 000 000 000 H (yours) * 600) / (2^32 * 14 000 000 (diff)) * 3600 btc = 0,1796 btc

Wow you're right..  I was using MH vs H.  Ok glad I figured you pointed that out.  Will be great to see how the equations come out with a new setup.

This is a really nice effort. I believe the difficulty increase will average in the 13-18% range, with occasional jumps higher. Keep up the good work.

Yes I agree that it's very unlikely to go to 28% or anything near that, but if a lot of the growth for the next year is weighted toward the beginning of the period it could end up looking similar to a 20 something percent rise.

[AnonBitcoinBuyer]

ASICminer Block Eruptor is 1.99BTC, not 2.6?

[docjunior]

kncminer has like 30%+ VAT/import/etc fees onto of their listed price.

Hi thanks for the input.  I decided recently to not add taxes or shipping to the totals, because that can so greatly change the price in some cases that there is almost no way to put the statistics accurately.

From the KnC thread, too, people seem entirely unfamiliar with the concept of sales taxes.

The Swedish VAT is basically the same as sales tax. If the product is exported from Sweden, the VAT will not be applied, but the buyer is of course responsible for paying import duties/sales tax in his home country/state. These duties/taxes vary wildly, as the OP said. The VAT within the EU varies from 18 to 27 percent.
Unlike in the US, in the EU prices for goods are usually quoted with national VAT included. Since businesses within the EU with VAT registration can deduct the VAT, companies selling services and goods for "professionals" (business to business) sometimes give prices VAT exclusive, as is the case with KnC, as far as i can understand.
Since the majority of their customers are likely outside Sweden, giving a price inclusive of Swedish VAT would make little sense, since everyone exporting the miners (consumers and businesses) would be allowed to deduct Swedish VAT (and would then have to add local taxes anyway). KnC could perhaps have quoted a "Swedish consumer price" (VAT inclusive), and an "export price" (VAT exclusive) to make this a bit clearer?

As FCTaiChi said, it's the tax rules in the buyer's country that matter, so all prices quoted in the table should be sales tax/VAT exclusive.

[FCTaiChi]

Yeah doc, just no way to give a good estimate on this.

ASICminer Block Eruptor is 1.99BTC, not 2.6?

Thanks a lot!  I can't imagine how that happened.

<3 to everyone helping, I couldn't do this without you.

[Schrankwand]

The Swedish VAT is basically the same as sales tax. If the product is exported from Sweden, the VAT will not be applied, but the buyer is of course responsible for paying import duties/sales tax in his home country/state. These duties/taxes vary wildly, as the OP said. The VAT within the EU varies from 18 to 27 percent.

That is technically not necessarily correct. I have sold into the EU and I am, at least from Germany, not legally allowed to exempt tax.

Im not sure if Sweden is inside the EU. But inside the EU, if you sell to a PRIVATE person, local Sales Tax applies on sale. The person can then get in touch with the local (Sweden) office to become tax exempt and get a refund on the tax.

If you are a company, you can supply a european VAT ID Number to the seller, so he can tax exempt you. In this case, as a reseller or company, you have to pay import sales tax and the SELLER has to make sure that you are exempt, so that reverse charges apply... it is complicated, but the EU VAT ID helps to make that seller show you are a business that doesnt pay sales tax.

[ImI]

Hi,

could you add the Bitmine.ch Batch#1 to your sheet?

Price: $6,739
Performance: 88 GH/s
Expected delivery: first week of august

[alibert]

so many devices bases on avalon chips. they should be marked

[FCTaiChi]

Hi,

could you add the Bitmine.ch Batch#1 to your sheet?

Price: $6,739
Performance: 88 GH/s
Expected delivery: first week of august

I'll look into it, thank you.  May take me 6 hours to get back to the computer though.

so many devices bases on avalon chips. they should be marked

That's not a bad idea considering that the chips are a bit late.  Going to have to push them back a month or two if they don't deliver soon.