Can KNCMiner really deliver 28 nanometers?

[J35st3r]

But its been hinted that KNCMiner are doing a 28nM Structured ASIC, ie a HardCopy(tm) of an Altera FPGA design. That's much cheaper in up-front cost (the mask set is just the metalization/vias so much cheaper), but the per-unit cost is higher. It won't perform anything like a full custom ASIC.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228068.msg2433194#msg2433194 (and subsequent posts).

My concern is that they're making very lofty performance claims but if it's just an ASIC copy of the FPGA it's not likely to outperform the FPGA crazy significantly.  I'm not sure where they're getting all this extra performance per watt from, are they solely depending on the fact that it's 28nm?  I'm just worried it'll be another repeat of BFL's power estimates.  They might be able to get 350Ghash but I doubt it's going to be come at the low watts they're quoting. 

I'm not sure I understand your meaning. ASICs are much faster and more efficient than FPGAs. Nothing they've claimed is outside the realm of reality for a non-structured ASIC such as they claim to be using. It's just a real ASIC.

I agree. A Structured ASIC whould have little performance gain over the base FPGA part (its essentially the same device, but with the programming hard-wired in), but would have lower unit cost. A full custom ASIC is an entirely different beastie, and at 28nm would expect at least a factor of 2 performance gain over BFL (not quite sure how it scales, ChipGeek will know).

I feel rather sorry I brought up this Structured ASIC hypothesis now as its pretty clear from KNCMiner statements that this is wrong (though I was only quoting what had been said elsewhere). I do stand by my comments that their timescale is extremely ambitious and the lack of a test strategy at wafer/package level is very worrying. (And my thanks to ChipGeek for his comments above.)

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[KS]

I feel rather sorry I brought up this Structured ASIC hypothesis now as its pretty clear from KNCMiner statements that this is wrong (though I was only quoting what had been said elsewhere). I do stand by my comments that their timescale is extremely ambitious and the lack of a test strategy at wafer/package level is very worrying. (And my thanks to ChipGeek for his comments above.)

You make your idea on available information. Pretty much everything pointed at structured ASIC.

I'm still not convinced about the September release (maybe they'll sell the sample chips in a miner as retail )

[slicko]

really !

[Bitcoinorama]

Uh huh, except everyone on the open day met me...

Plus there's video to come, more Q&A, in addition I'm happy to post my flight boarding passes (minus personal info). On top of which, there's the fact I haven't been paid, bar 4-5 tips equal to a drink from forum members.

Still, feel free to troll, which is what everyone of your posts on every topic have been this far...largely I'll-informed as well, but that's just laziness, right?? How's the megastore btw? Wasn't looking too impressive last I checked, perhaps you should concentrate on something constructive? Just sayin'...

Oh and in case you've missed the part (likely, as you've missed everything else) where I've repeatedly said I will never advise anyone to do anything other than to do their own research, I'm saying it again. I'm just sharing my own research. The only recommendation I can make is visit for yourself. The door's open.

You won't though will you? Wayy easier to speculate and spread BS.

[szmarco]

policeman appears....

[Bitcoinorama]

Uh huh, except everyone on the open day met me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmPD_YSQ--k

You can not fool me. I'm dealing with crime and scam for over 20 years now, online and offline, and your profile is crystal clear to me.

You can not fool me. I'm dealing with crime and scam for over 20 years now, online and offline, and your profile is crystal clear to me.

You're an idiot. ORSoC is a real engineering firm. They make and for the past decade have been making FPGAs, ASICs and other projects to tender to real paying clients. On the side they open soure projects. They have made the worlds first open source graphics card, want to make the worlds first open source CPU, they have a freakin' robotic arm they built in their showroom. They own the worlds largest open source community; opencores.org. Making something like a bitcoin miner for them is an opportunity, and as they see it a formula one race, but it's no where near as difficult as anything they have created in the past. It's doing it by September that's the challenge.

My posting history starts with me calling out ASICrigs.com, and then the infamous Cedartec I saw the potential in KnC as soon as they confirmed ORSoC.

If you ever were in a position of authority in the past, that's worrying!

[KS]

I saw the potential in KnC as soon as they confirmed ORSoC.

(facepalm)

SO, did you pay for that Jupiter miner you ordered finally or not? You still haven't answered the question.

[Bitcoinorama]

The fact that you are so easy on attacking my business (failed thread derail) because I attacked you reveals your business here, dumbass.

Ok cool, just as long as you never made detective...!

[DPoS]

bitcoin megastore calling anyone a shillscam   

what the hell is your 'store' ?
 

[Anenome5]

I think Bitcoinrama is paid shill. He shown no expertise in anything but posting bullshits, a lot of them. He jumped on promoting KNC and bashing BFL just few days after he joined this forum, doing it...

Meh, there's plenty of room for people to simply be enthusiastic, fan-style, and defending. Bitcoinorama is the polar opposite of KS in this respect, but I'm not about to diss KS as being a paid critic.

When dealing with unknowns, everyone is dealing not in the realm of deductions but inductions, of what is likely. Bitcoin falls on one side of that spectrum--and I happen to agree with him--and KS on the other. Both are healthy and productive voices to add to the conversation.

I've seen nothing from either to indicate anything other than that each simply has different levels of concerns about the company.

And BFL has done a lot to earn everyone's ire. It's not like anyone needs to be paid to diss BFL these days.

[RoadStress]

The fact that you are easy on attacking my business (failed thread derail) because I attacked you (not KNC) reveals your business here, dumbass.

This is only Inaba's fault lol!

[CoinHoarder]

Kncminer is the next BFL. "Shipping in 4-6 weeks"

You heard it here first.  

I'm not going to order nothing from these guys, I don't trust them further than I can throw them.

I think their shipping timeline and power consumption rates are way overly optimistic.

[KS]

I think Bitcoinrama is paid shill. He shown no expertise in anything but posting bullshits, a lot of them. He jumped on promoting KNC and bashing BFL just few days after he joined this forum, doing it...

Meh, there's plenty of room for people to simply be enthusiastic, fan-style, and defending. Bitcoinorama is the polar opposite of KS in this respect, but I'm not about to diss KS as being a paid critic.

When dealing with unknowns, everyone is dealing not in the realm of deductions but inductions, of what is likely. Bitcoin falls on one side of that spectrum--and I happen to agree with him--and KS on the other. Both are healthy and productive voices to add to the conversation.

I've seen nothing from either to indicate anything other than that each simply has different levels of concerns about the company.

And BFL has done a lot to earn everyone's ire. It's not like anyone needs to be paid to diss BFL these days.

Oh but Bitcoinorama is a *total* KNCMINER shill. He's just basking in the glory right now.

[KS]

I've seen nothing from either to indicate anything other than that each simply has different levels of concerns about the company.

I don't think he's concerned. His BS radar is completely switched off when it comes to them and I don't think he knows what it takes to successfully run a business.

I think he's fixated on the R&D and plays the ORSoC card continuously. I'm trying to show that it's only a part of the equation, but that doesn't seem to resonate.

Anyway, as I said before, the train has left the station, so we just wait to see what KNCMINER will do for the money.

[CoinHoarder]

People like to use OSRoC involvement as a reason why Kncminer is legit and going to do what they say they are. I agree they are likely making an ASIC and not a complete scam, however their promises of shipping time and power consumption seem like they'll be hard to keep.

Anyone that thinks that BFL didn't use an ASIC design company as reputable (or more reputable) than OSRoC is fooling themselves. Also, kncminer is using newer tech than BFL, which is more difficult to design and develop. Both companies are using newer tech than ASICMINER / Avalon and both companies are going to run into their share of complications. Except you just haven't seen the complications that Kncminer will run into yet because they're just getting started... they will come IMO.

[jspielberg]

It is also possible that BFL just really is that bad, or have setup the incentives with their contractors properly (e.g. fixed bid with full payment on completion vs time and materials).

It seems like KNC and some of the other players like Bitfury have some significant technical skills.  I have some expectation that players other than Avalon and Asic Miner are going to be able to produce (just maybe not in the extremely optimistic timelines communicated). 

For full disclosure, I have no horse in the KNC stables... but try to to patiently wait for my Avalon Batch 3 order as well as Bitfury.

[DPoS]

bitcoin megastore calling anyone a shillscam  

what the hell is your 'store' ?

Since it seems link to store in my signature does not work for you or you haven't noticed it, here is a link to store official thread on this forum:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=215026

Make sure you understand who is who there and how store works. Calling me "shillscam" is by far the most stupid thing I've seen here lately.

How can you say you have bullshit meter when your store is total junk and don't even take bitcoins... You put no effort.  I just bought shirts and items from a Thailand store using bitcoins and they have top notch service and embrace using BTC..  And they sell real clothes and items not just BTC logos.  They promote BTC by accepting BTC not generic items with logos

You shill junk logos to cafe store and too lazy to promote the USE of BTC.. But try to make easy money off hype.  So yes you are a shill scammer

A disgrace

[KS]

People like to use OSRoC involvement as a reason why Kncminer is legit and going to do what they say they are. I agree they are likely making an ASIC and not a complete scam, however their promises of shipping time and power consumption seem like they'll be hard to keep.

Anyone that thinks that BFL didn't use an ASIC design company as reputable (or more reputable) than OSRoC is fooling themselves. Also, kncminer is using newer tech than BFL, which is more difficult to design and develop. Both companies are using newer tech than ASICMINER / Avalon and both companies are going to run into their share of complications. Except you just haven't seen the complications that Kncminer will run into yet because they're just getting started... they will come IMO.

BFL is a bit of an enigma but they have some shady characters, use shady tactics, and seems really bad at the operating a business. It's hard to decide whether they are really that bad or whether something else is going on but, either way, unless they deliver the ASICs, I'd stay away from them (to think that I wanted to buy a Mini...   ).

[coinedBit]

Can KNCMiner really deliver 28 nanometers?

most of us would even just love to know if they can deliver anything at all, even if it's 500 nm, that would make them at least legit... 

[Anenome5]

People like to use OSRoC involvement as a reason why Kncminer is legit and going to do what they say they are. I agree they are likely making an ASIC and not a complete scam, however their promises of shipping time and power consumption seem like they'll be hard to keep.

Anyone that thinks that BFL didn't use an ASIC design company as reputable (or more reputable) than OSRoC is fooling themselves. Also, kncminer is using newer tech than BFL, which is more difficult to design and develop. Both companies are using newer tech than ASICMINER / Avalon and both companies are going to run into their share of complications. Except you just haven't seen the complications that Kncminer will run into yet because they're just getting started... they will come IMO.

Except for all of those companies, these were the first ASICs they'd ever made/ordered. Only BFL had some experience with FPGAs, and that doesn't necessarily copy directly over to ASICs.

Are you sure BFL used a design company? Explain the power problems then. Any seasoned ASIC company has lots of experience avoiding the common pitfalls in producing designs the BFL apparently fell into.

Orsoc by contrast, it's their business to produce these things. I agree they'll look like geniuses if they pull this off. But is it outside the realm of possibility for them to deliver? Nope. They'd just have to be extremely professional to pull this off. Are they? Seemingly they are. Now it's just a matter of waiting upon execution and seeing if they deliver.