[NR 1] Triplemining.com <> BIG jackpot every week <>

[Nagios]

What did everyone leave or something? Down to 60 GHash/s and it's been that way for a bit

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[Xephan]

What did everyone leave or something? Down to 60 GHash/s and it's been that way for a bit

If I'm not mistaken, it's due to pool hopping. As it is, the current reward system means that in a long round like the current one, it's just more profitable for people to go contribute shares at another pool. Only way to fix this is to change the pool reward system.

[kinlo]

What did everyone leave or something? Down to 60 GHash/s and it's been that way for a bit

If I'm not mistaken, it's due to pool hopping. As it is, the current reward system means that in a long round like the current one, it's just more profitable for people to go contribute shares at another pool. Only way to fix this is to change the pool reward system.

We are going to change this; but not this round.... we'll keep you posted!

[Slab Squathrust]

So we've been plagued with poolhoppers, that abuse our pool.  The only correct action we can take to these abusers, is to change our payment system, in such a way that it becomes less interesting for poolhoppers (and therefore more interesting for fair miners).  We are going to change our pool to a PPLNS pool.

What does this mean:

We will payout for all last N shares submitted, where N is defined as the current difficulty divided by 2.

In other words, when a block is found, we will look at the last 845450 shares, and we will divide the 50 BTC over the people that submitted those shares.  The number 845450 is half of the current difficulty and will be automatically adjusted if the difficulty rises.

- This is more fair for cpu/low power miners: you will have profit from very fast blocks, even if you could not submit a share for that block.
- This is fair for irregular miners: if you only mine at night, you will ofcourse have less chance on finding a block, and only when your pc is actually mining during the finding of a block will you receive BTC's, but you will earn much  more from a block when it falls, so in the end, statistically, you have more profits then with no poolhopping protection.  Note that your income may fluctuate even more...
- This is fair for normal 24/7 miners, as they will get more, as the poolhoppers cannot run away with any BTC's...
- This is not pleasant for poolhoppers: they will get 0 on long blocks, and a block after a long block will not gain any decent profit anymore.


So when are we going to implement this change?

Soon

So I understand the reason for doing this.  But I don't think it will prevent people from leaving the pool on long blocks.  For example my estimated payout on the current block is about half a bitcoin.  I could have made about 1.7 over that same time mining on a large pool.  Now I understand that in the long run your daily payout should average out no matter where you are.  However, like someone said earlier the long run may be too long for some.  For example I had to switch a card to a different pool because I cannot afford to go 3.5 days with no payback.  With the new system the fallacy of sunk costs begins to apply.  Many people may be willing to forgo the payout for work they did a few days prior in order to follow a more reliable stream of income.  The only outcome I see is bitter miners who refuse to return, keeping the hash rate low and leading to more long rounds. 

So it would be wrong to critique without a suggestion.  What if the jackpot were made more frequent, like it was in the beginning?  After each block, payout the .5 bitcoin jackpot.  This may serve as a carrot for people to keep mining on the long blocks because of the chance of the additional payout.

[Xephan]

So we've been plagued with poolhoppers, that abuse our pool.  The only correct action we can take to these abusers, is to change our payment system, in such a way that it becomes less interesting for poolhoppers (and therefore more interesting for fair miners).  We are going to change our pool to a PPLNS pool.

What does this mean:

We will payout for all last N shares submitted, where N is defined as the current difficulty divided by 2.

In other words, when a block is found, we will look at the last 845450 shares, and we will divide the 50 BTC over the people that submitted those shares.  The number 845450 is half of the current difficulty and will be automatically adjusted if the difficulty rises.

- This is more fair for cpu/low power miners: you will have profit from very fast blocks, even if you could not submit a share for that block.
- This is fair for irregular miners: if you only mine at night, you will ofcourse have less chance on finding a block, and only when your pc is actually mining during the finding of a block will you receive BTC's, but you will earn much  more from a block when it falls, so in the end, statistically, you have more profits then with no poolhopping protection.  Note that your income may fluctuate even more...
- This is fair for normal 24/7 miners, as they will get more, as the poolhoppers cannot run away with any BTC's...
- This is not pleasant for poolhoppers: they will get 0 on long blocks, and a block after a long block will not gain any decent profit anymore.


So when are we going to implement this change?

Soon

Why not a geometric or normalized system? We're already into the 6 million shares and even for some of us who are not habitual hoppers, the cost of operation means that we have to divest some mhash power elsewhere. Not to be given any reward for those shares isn't very fair either.

While at the same deterring hopping is good, at our current pool speed, getting some hoppers with high hashrates in at the beginning every now and then is useful too. With the proposed scheme, no hopper will hop here and over time, it would prolong future rounds especially if new miners are not convinced to join or return after this such long rounds. Maybe when the pool speed gets up into the 300~400GH/s speeds, then we can adjust it to fully PPLNS.

Since tripleming has the unique feature of a jackpot, why not further tweak it by only picking miners who contributed for the last difficulty/3 shares?

Just my 380Mh/s worth of thoughts

[gnaget]

I would like to get this pool's opinion on something.  There is a discussion between pool hoppers going on that instead of going to a PPS pool when there is nothing to hop that they should move over (at least at times) to those pools with an absurdly long block.  Right now, you should have discovered 4 blocks in the space of this last block, and I bet it would be appreciated if you had hoppers jump in and help you get past this epoch of bad luck.  Opinions?

[coblee]

I would like to get this pool's opinion on something.  There is a discussion between pool hoppers going on that instead of going to a PPS pool when there is nothing to hop that they should move over (at least at times) to those pools with an absurdly long block.  Right now, you should have discovered 4 blocks in the space of this last block, and I bet it would be appreciated if you had hoppers jump in and help you get past this epoch of bad luck.  Opinions?

Why would pool hoppers want to do this? The only reason why they hop is to maximize profit. If they do this, they will make less coins. So why hop in the first place?

[gnaget]

Why would pool hoppers want to do this? The only reason why they hop is to maximize profit. If they do this, they will make less coins. So why hop in the first place?

Because maximizing profits isn't everything.  It would make hoppers look less like ferengi, and more like a swarm of a lot of hashpower to help solve blocks.  Good PR is worth more than a few btc

I'm not saying every hopper will do it, but if it is the default behavior in the proxy, then I think most would.  The problem is, right now there is such a disconnect between miners and hoppers, and I think it would be beneficial for us all to realize we are first and foremost members of the bitcoin network with the same goal.  Hopping isn't for everyone, you have to micromanage the software, and constantly make updates, but they are a big force and can be beneficial.

[coblee]

Why would pool hoppers want to do this? The only reason why they hop is to maximize profit. If they do this, they will make less coins. So why hop in the first place?

Because maximizing profits isn't everything.  It would make hoppers look less like ferengi, and more like a swarm of a lot of hashpower to help solve blocks.  Good PR is worth more than a few btc

I'm not saying every hopper will do it, but if it is the default behavior in the proxy, then I think most would.  The problem is, right now there is such a disconnect between miners and hoppers, and I think it would be beneficial for us all to realize we are first and foremost members of the bitcoin network with the same goal.  Hopping isn't for everyone, you have to micromanage the software, and constantly make updates, but they are a big force and can be beneficial.

Would you do this even if triplemining is switching to PPLNS or SMPPS after this round? :p

[gnaget]

Why would pool hoppers want to do this? The only reason why they hop is to maximize profit. If they do this, they will make less coins. So why hop in the first place?

Because maximizing profits isn't everything.  It would make hoppers look less like ferengi, and more like a swarm of a lot of hashpower to help solve blocks.  Good PR is worth more than a few btc

I'm not saying every hopper will do it, but if it is the default behavior in the proxy, then I think most would.  The problem is, right now there is such a disconnect between miners and hoppers, and I think it would be beneficial for us all to realize we are first and foremost members of the bitcoin network with the same goal.  Hopping isn't for everyone, you have to micromanage the software, and constantly make updates, but they are a big force and can be beneficial.

Would you do this even if triplemining is switching to PPLNS or SMPPS after this round? :p

heh, of course not, the point is for hoppers and prop pools to ally with each other instead of fight with each other.

[MrSam]

I would like to get this pool's opinion on something.  There is a discussion between pool hoppers going on that instead of going to a PPS pool when there is nothing to hop that they should move over (at least at times) to those pools with an absurdly long block.  Right now, you should have discovered 4 blocks in the space of this last block, and I bet it would be appreciated if you had hoppers jump in and help you get past this epoch of bad luck.  Opinions?

Why would pool hoppers want to do this? The only reason why they hop is to maximize profit. If they do this, they will make less coins. So why hop in the first place?

What do you suggest ?

[coblee]

I would like to get this pool's opinion on something.  There is a discussion between pool hoppers going on that instead of going to a PPS pool when there is nothing to hop that they should move over (at least at times) to those pools with an absurdly long block.  Right now, you should have discovered 4 blocks in the space of this last block, and I bet it would be appreciated if you had hoppers jump in and help you get past this epoch of bad luck.  Opinions?

Why would pool hoppers want to do this? The only reason why they hop is to maximize profit. If they do this, they will make less coins. So why hop in the first place?

What do you suggest ?

Switch to RSMPPS or PPLNS or a hybrid of the two.

[Xephan]

I would like to get this pool's opinion on something.  There is a discussion between pool hoppers going on that instead of going to a PPS pool when there is nothing to hop that they should move over (at least at times) to those pools with an absurdly long block.  Right now, you should have discovered 4 blocks in the space of this last block, and I bet it would be appreciated if you had hoppers jump in and help you get past this epoch of bad luck.  Opinions?

This is one of those scenarios where I felt a rational pool operator would happily welcome hoppers
An extra say 100GH/s could just end the round really quick, although I don't know if the hoppers would find it profitable to do so, since profitability is their primary objective.

[Xephan]

Would you do this even if triplemining is switching to PPLNS or SMPPS after this round? :p

At low hashrate, I think SMPPS would be suicidal?

[coblee]

Would you do this even if triplemining is switching to PPLNS or SMPPS after this round? :p

At low hashrate, I think SMPPS would be suicidal?

How so?

[Xephan]

How so?

I might be wrong since my only experience with SMPPS is with Eligius.
There's a calculated value per share, e.g. 0.000001 BTC per share.
If the total payout is more than 50 BTC, only 50 BTC is paid and the rest held in credit to be paid in subsequent rounds where total payout is less than 50 BTC.

If TM had a payout based on 2M per round since most rounds before the current massive one were under 1M. This would be 0.000025/share

When a massive round like the current one hits, which isn't ending, say 8M, that would be 200BTC needed but 150BTC would only be returned in subsequent round. If another big round hits before this is paid off, miners are going to realize it might take a long time for this to be returned.

In which case, the hoppers would still hop, once the total round goes beyond X shares until the debt is cleared. Since they can still earn the same BTC while mining elsewhere.

[gnaget]

I would like to get this pool's opinion on something.  There is a discussion between pool hoppers going on that instead of going to a PPS pool when there is nothing to hop that they should move over (at least at times) to those pools with an absurdly long block.  Right now, you should have discovered 4 blocks in the space of this last block, and I bet it would be appreciated if you had hoppers jump in and help you get past this epoch of bad luck.  Opinions?

This is one of those scenarios where I felt a rational pool operator would happily welcome hoppers
An extra say 100GH/s could just end the round really quick, although I don't know if the hoppers would find it profitable to do so, since profitability is their primary objective.

That is what I am hoping.  I made a change to the client, and submitted it to the main fork in github.  The way it'll work: friendly pools would be marked as such, and instead of moving to a PPS server when there are no good places to mine, it'll look first for friendly pools and find the one with the highest shares count over 200% of difficulty and mine there.  Right now, if triplemining were friendly, you would see a lot of extra miners coming in during these trying times.

Yes, it hurts profits, and those miners obsessed with profits probably won't use it, but many realize hopping only works when you have pools to hop, and concessions need to be made to ally with pools.

[Xephan]

That is what I am hoping.  I made a change to the client, and submitted it to the main fork in github.  The way it'll work: friendly pools would be marked as such, and instead of moving to a PPS server when there are no good places to mine, it'll look first for friendly pools and find the one with the highest shares count over 200% of difficulty and mine there.  Right now, if triplemining were friendly, you would see a lot of extra miners coming in during these trying times.

Yes, it hurts profits, and those miners obsessed with profits probably won't use it, but many realize hopping only works when you have pools to hop, and concessions need to be made to ally with pools.

That would be good. Although I find it difficult to come up with a good objective argument against profit-oriented (as opposed to giving up after 3 days) hopping, it just don't feel right. If hoppers start contributing their hashrates to help smaller pools get past difficult rounds, it would definitely help swing the perception.

[EskimoBob]

I would like to get this pool's opinion on something.  There is a discussion between pool hoppers going on that instead of going to a PPS pool when there is nothing to hop that they should move over (at least at times) to those pools with an absurdly long block.  Right now, you should have discovered 4 blocks in the space of this last block, and I bet it would be appreciated if you had hoppers jump in and help you get past this epoch of bad luck.  Opinions?

This is one of those scenarios where I felt a rational pool operator would happily welcome hoppers
An extra say 100GH/s could just end the round really quick, although I don't know if the hoppers would find it profitable to do so, since profitability is their primary objective.

That is what I am hoping.  I made a change to the client, and submitted it to the main fork in github.  The way it'll work: friendly pools would be marked as such, and instead of moving to a PPS server when there are no good places to mine, it'll look first for friendly pools and find the one with the highest shares count over 200% of difficulty and mine there.  Right now, if triplemining were friendly, you would see a lot of extra miners coming in during these trying times.

Yes, it hurts profits, and those miners obsessed with profits probably won't use it, but many realize hopping only works when you have pools to hop, and concessions need to be made to ally with pools.

I am glad to see that my idea (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=31400.msg397461#msg397461) is finding some real support and the code, that enables a quick "To The Rescue" operations is on its way... 

I made a change to the client

Ääh? To what client?

[ChrisLandin]

Is today jackpot day? Its been a week since the last one!

I know its wishfull thinking seeing as though this block is taking an age but I thought I would ask. It might get a few long lost miners back so we can crack this sucker!!