Assault weapon bans

[mdude77]

I love my truck.  It's not the nicest truck in the world, but when I look at it, I can't help but think "that's a nice looking truck".  I love how it feels when I use it.  I love how it's always there for me when I need it.  I love how reliable it is.  Yes, the high cost of fuel makes it expensive to use sometimes, but I don't regret my decision to get it.  It serves me well, and I do my best to take care of it.

I'm sure others can relate with their vehicles, off road vehicles, and or motorcycles.

Yet substitute the word "gun" for "truck" and "ammo" for "fuel" and suddenly some people think I shouldn't be allowed to have a truck.  It's too dangerous, I shouldn't be allowed to have one, for my own good and "for the children".  And heaven forbid if someone steals it from me!  

Both are tools, both require proper training to use, and both can be abused.  There's nothing inherently evil about my truck OR my gun.

M

PS.  Yes, that makes me a truck lover.  I'm not ashamed of it, and neither should you be of yours.

[Spendulus]

...
Both are tools, both require proper training to use, and both can be abused.  There's nothing inherently evil about my truck OR my gun.
...

I have on several occasions in this thread descended into a level of sarcasm that is unwarranted, in talking with others who have the opposite position on these issues.  So here is an alternative method.

It's called the learning process.

One world expert in this is Masaad Ayoob.  Hundreds of articles on gun safety and use in the worse situation, many youtube videos.

Example - what the couple in Clockwork Orange SHOULD HAVE DONE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD3zIA6vJkQ

[mdude77]

...
Both are tools, both require proper training to use, and both can be abused.  There's nothing inherently evil about my truck OR my gun.
...

I have on several occasions in this thread descended into a level of sarcasm that is unwarranted, in talking with others who have the opposite position on these issues.  So here is an alternative method.

I didn't intend to come across as sarcastic.  I don't think sarcasm is good either.  I was simply trying to make a point.

One world expert in this is Masaad Ayoob.  Hundreds of articles on gun safety and use in the worse situation, many youtube videos.

I love his articles.

M

[Rassah]

Well, with guns there is a sort of vicious circle going on in the US. As you said, its true that criminals DO have guns in Europe, and its not so difficult to buy one on the black market... But criminals (mostly drug dealers, "mafia" members, etc.) just do not carry guns around, they have them to kill other criminals or defend themselves from other criminals (or the police, if needed). In Europe, Spain, etc. you won't read about a random guy killed in his house (or on the street) because a robbery/assault, you will read about a drug dealer being executed by another drug dealer (just happened not so long ago near my house), russian gang members killing each other, etc... And still this happens just a few dozens times per year in countries with +50 million inhabitants, and nobody in my country feels unsafe or with the need to carry a gun.

Around where I live, you don't read about anyone being murdered in their house or on the street. We had a few burglaries over the years (I think two in the last 10), and the shop down the street had armed robberies maybe three times, with no one shot or hurt, but we haven't had a murder in as long as I remember. I think most people here don't have guns either. We are safe not because we don't have guns, but because we live outside the city, in a fairly affluent neighborhood. Just maybe ten miles away, in the urban area, news of shootings and murders is a bit common. I don't know if they have more guns. I suspect not many more, since the same "you are not allowed to carry a gun at all" laws apply to them, too, but criminals still get guns, and violence is still somewhat common.

So, it's really the area, the culture, and the people. You're making the same mistake as FirstAscent, thinking that your country has fewer murders because of a lack of guns. It's not. It's because of your culture, society, and people. We just happen to have a lot of areas in US with a lot of bad people.

The point is that the less violent is a society, the better for everybody - and the US is a very violent society.

I think what you and many others on here are missing is that you think of US as one country with one type of people. US is huge, spanning from Portugal to West Russia, and from Poland to Greece. And it's full of many different cultures. Some are shit, some are violent, some are stupid rednecks, some are high class Victorian, some are industrial, some are high tech or Neapolitan, some are metropolis urban, and some are Robo Cop dystopean. We have English, French, Spanish, Italian, and Russian all mingling all over the place, trying to live together. So, when you think "US is a violent culture, because they like guns and have a cowboy mentality," you may be only thinking about one tiny part of US, or even be conflating a bunch of cultures together.

[Rassah]

Sad thing is they are no different from all other soldiers deployed in war zones, those guys are probably heroes in their neighborhoods, and are the best example of proud American soldier who went to defend their country for their friends.

Americans are too apathetic to be proud, PR even give a shit, about the people we send to fight our wars. No one knows who's kids got sent over there. No one cares. And no one pays attention to the wars. You almost never even hear about them in the news any more. For many years now.

You fear some evil bearded men that will come and try to take your beloved freedom away, so your government can just strip you of the most basic rights

Well... Yeah. We saw what happened to you guys back in the 40's, what happened in Russia at the beginning of the century, what happened in Latin America over the last century, and what's happening in the Middle Easy now. Fuck that shit.

[Rassah]

PS.  Yes, that makes me a truck lover.  I'm not ashamed of it, and neither should you be of yours.

I'm OK with you loving your truck, as long as you're OK with me loving my Prius. Deal? 

[Rampion]

So, the military (as the ones in my example) are generally "bad people", regardless of their country of origin, right?

I'm not sure where you are going with this.  I'm sure the overlords who run the military industrial complex seek out the lowest meanest foulest individuals for their employment.  I'm sure there are also those there who bought the government propaganda about whatever war being good and necessary, and think they are "serving their country" and making their country a better place.  To say the military as a whole is bad is an overstatement.  I would argue that those running it and controlling it are more malicious than their employees are.

An older fellow at the gas station told me once that when he joined the army, the government gave him a gun and told him to go out and kill the enemy.  Now that he's no longer employed by them, they're trying to make sure he can't own a gun to defend his own body, family, and property.

What's your point?  

M

My point is that most of people is not intrinsically good or bad, the vast majority of people do both good and bad things during their life (again, those teenage soldiers in "collateral murder" enjoyed killing innocent people, but nevertheless they did not even go to trial and are now probably considered "proud and honorable war veterans" -  so, are they "the good guys", "the bad guys" or just "guys" that did something very evil? )

Nevertheless, when people is heavily armed they do huge damage when their mind flips out - and minds DO flip out,  especially in a violent society like the USA.

And seriously: the world is so fucked up where you live that you fear a random guy breaking and entering your home to rape your family? REALLY? Wow, that's fucked up. Where I live there are few rapings, and most of them are commited by people very close to the victim (relatives, friends, family), which are people the victim wouldn't shoot in any case.

And this might be slightly off topic, but I would ask you why do you think your society is so violent, both internally  (random killings, shool shootings, wackos blowing up entire buildings, etc.) and externally (executions without trial by drones, bombing countries to the stone age, guantanamo, etc.). It's an frank question, it would be interesting to know the opinion of the people living that reality first hand. In my opinion, most of that violence (yes, the internal too) is based precisely on fear.

[TheButterZone]

I think what you and many others on here are missing is that you think of US as one country with one type of people. US is huge, spanning from Portugal to West Russia, and from Poland to Greece. And it's full of many different cultures. Some are shit, some are violent, some are stupid rednecks, some are high class Victorian, some are industrial, some are high tech or Neapolitan, some are metropolis urban, and some are Robo Cop dystopean. We have English, French, Spanish, Italian, and Russian all mingling all over the place, trying to live together. So, when you think "US is a violent culture, because they like guns and have a cowboy mentality," you may be only thinking about one tiny part of US, or even be conflating a bunch of cultures together.

Ah, this resonates. Yeah, there really isn't an "American identity" because we're almost all aliens on this land. The melting pot that is the U.S. has shit melted in from the entire world (even the metaphorical potpourri - positive contributions from people - doesn't magically make the shit disappear from the fondue), and with the history of the Roman Empire repeating itself primarily, and other shitty histories, don't act like your shit doesn't stink if you don't live in the U.S. Our shit wasn't immaculately conceived here. When you point your index finger at people, 3 are pointing back at you. Blame humanity, and stop standing and pontificating in the way of defending innocent life.

[mdude77]

My point is that most of people is not intrinsically good or bad, the vast majority of people do both good and bad things during their life (again, those teenage soldiers in "collateral murder" enjoyed killing innocent people, but nevertheless they did not even go to trial and are now probably considered "proud and honorable war veterans" -  so, are they "the good guys", "the bad guys" or just "guys" that did something very evil? )

Nevertheless, when people is heavily armed they do huge damage when their mind flips out - and minds DO flip out,  especially in a violent society like the USA.

As I've stated before, those people will "flip out" regardless of whether are armed or not.  And if they do around me, I want to be able to defend myself and mine.  The benefit of being armed to defend myself outweighs the benefit of said flippos not being armed. 

And seriously: the world is so fucked up where you live that you fear a random guy breaking and entering your home to rape your family? REALLY? Wow, that's fucked up. Where I live there are few rapings, and most of them are commited by people very close to the victim (relatives, friends, family), which are people the victim wouldn't shoot in any case.

And this might be slightly off topic, but I would ask you why do you think your society is so violent, both internally  (random killings, shool shootings, wackos blowing up entire buildings, etc.) and externally (executions without trial by drones, bombing countries to the stone age, guantanamo, etc.). It's an frank question, it would be interesting to know the opinion of the people living that reality first hand. In my opinion, most of that violence (yes, the internal too) is based precisely on fear.

I've said this before as well.  But I'll repeat.  A godless society leads to moral decay.  That leads to societal breakdown.  It will lead to the end of the world as we know it if we don't turn back to God.  (No, I'm not talking religion.  There is plenty of religion to go around, and you see how far it's got the world.)

There IS something seriously wrong with this world.  Not just the US, but the whole world.  What do you think it is?  I've thought about this a lot, and the only answer I've found is a lack of God.

M

[Spendulus]

...
Both are tools, both require proper training to use, and both can be abused.  There's nothing inherently evil about my truck OR my gun.
...

I have on several occasions in this thread descended into a level of sarcasm that is unwarranted, in talking with others who have the opposite position on these issues.  So here is an alternative method.

I didn't intend to come across as sarcastic.  I don't think sarcasm is good either.  I was simply trying to make a point.

One world expert in this is Masaad Ayoob.  Hundreds of articles on gun safety and use in the worse situation, many youtube videos.

I love his articles.

M

I suggest anti-gun folks here review some of Ayoob's Youtube videos, and learn a bit.  And note the linked video is one which has equally valid suggestions whether the homeowner has a gun or no weapon.

[Spendulus]

..... I'll repeat.  A godless society leads to moral decay.  That leads to societal breakdown.  It will lead to the end of the world as we know it if we don't turn back to God.  (No, I'm not talking religion.  There is plenty of religion to go around, and you see how far it's got the world.)

There IS something seriously wrong with this world.  Not just the US, but the whole world.  What do you think it is?  I've thought about this a lot, and the only answer I've found is a lack of God.

M

I remember reading a sociology book on slums some years ago.  Described slums as they were around the world, now and in the past.  Went back thousands of years.  Talked about how they had to exist, how some fraction of humanity was always going downhill just as others were going uphill.

So at least a part of what you refer to as 'moral decay' is a constant for humanity.

[Biomech]

Does "assault weapon" mean anything that can be used as a weapon to assault another person?  Like baseball bats, 2x4s, steak knives, cars, steel pipes, odd objects d'art, folding chairs, fertilizer, fire arms, etc?  Sounds extreme to ban all of those things.  Maybe we should just outlaw murder and assault.

Oh yeah? Sure its for self defense. What if someone gets an assault rifle for the purpose of "self defense" and then uses that to kill someone? Sure other people with guns might kill the aggressor. But what if that guy already killed someone? Just one person. What if that person was you? Or one of your family members?

And that stupid argument that says we need to outlaw every other thing that could kill or harm people (i.e. gravity, knives, bats) if we ban assault weapons. Just think this way. If you were going to kill a bunch of kids in a school, what would be your weapon of choice? A knife? A shotgun? A pistol? A piece of wood? Maybe something that can spit out the most projectiles per second? i.e. An assault rifle?

My weapon of choice would be the current "curriculum" as it will drive the greatest number to suicide.

As far as weapons go, "assault" rifle is a meaningless term. The difference between a civilian model AK-47 and ANY other semi automatic rifle is only caliber and a variance in magazine size. The most "bang for the buck" would be a .22 semi. That being said, long guns are rarely used in armed assaults unless perpetrated by governments. Handguns are more likely to be used for the obvious reasons. Disarming the lawful just invites the lawless and the ruler. No matter who presents them, the stats bear this out. Highly armed segments of the populace have low violent crime rates for obvious reasons: Criminals are opportunists. One can only defend against the true psychopath. I believe that MOST of these mass killers are NOT true psychopaths as they are too risk averse to carry out their malfeasance where there is a high likelihood of an armed response. It is no accident that mass shootings ALWAYS occur in officially disarmed places.

[mdude77]

..... I'll repeat.  A godless society leads to moral decay.  That leads to societal breakdown.  It will lead to the end of the world as we know it if we don't turn back to God.  (No, I'm not talking religion.  There is plenty of religion to go around, and you see how far it's got the world.)

There IS something seriously wrong with this world.  Not just the US, but the whole world.  What do you think it is?  I've thought about this a lot, and the only answer I've found is a lack of God.

M

I remember reading a sociology book on slums some years ago.  Described slums as they were around the world, now and in the past.  Went back thousands of years.  Talked about how they had to exist, how some fraction of humanity was always going downhill just as others were going uphill.

So at least a part of what you refer to as 'moral decay' is a constant for humanity.

That may be true.  It's also not how things are supposed to be.  People have used their free will to wander from God since just about the beginning. 

M

[Rampion]

My point is that most of people is not intrinsically good or bad, the vast majority of people do both good and bad things during their life (again, those teenage soldiers in "collateral murder" enjoyed killing innocent people, but nevertheless they did not even go to trial and are now you probably considered "proud and honorable war veterans" -  so, are they "the good guys", "the bad guys" or just "guys" that did something very evil? )

Nevertheless, when people is heavily armed they do huge damage when their mind flips out - and minds DO flip out,  especially in a violent society like the USA.

As I've stated before, those people will "flip out" regardless of whether are armed or not.  And if they do around me, I want to be able to defend myself and mine.  The benefit of being armed to defend myself outweighs the benefit of said flippos not being armed. 

And seriously: the world is so fucked up where you live that you fear a random guy breaking and entering your home to rape your family? REALLY? Wow, that's fucked up. Where I live there are few rapings, and most of them are commited by people very close to the victim (relatives, friends, family), which are people the victim wouldn't shoot in any case.

And this might be slightly off topic, but I would ask you why do you think your society is so violent, both internally  (random killings, shool shootings, wackos blowing up entire buildings, etc.) and externally (executions without trial by drones, bombing countries to the stone age, guantanamo, etc.). It's an frank question, it would be interesting to know the opinion of the people living that reality first hand. In my opinion, most of that violence (yes, the internal too) is based precisely on fear.

I've said this before as well.  But I'll repeat.  A godless society leads to moral decay.  That leads to societal breakdown.  It will lead to the end of the world as we know it if we don't turn back to God.  (No, I'm not talking religion.  There is plenty of religion to go around, and you see how far it's got the world.)

There IS something seriously wrong with this world.  Not just the US, but the whole world.  What do you think it is?  I've thought about this a lot, and the only answer I've found is a lack of God.

M

My guess is that there is too much fear and too much greed. I strongly believe there are very few psychos who enjoy hurting people, and that the vast majority of crimes in this world are commited because of fear and greed - those are our two biggest problems IMO. Some turn to god to control the fear and greed in them, but as an atheist I never understood why. I personally don't need to believe in god to be good to the people around me, or to know that being forgiving, generous and compassionate makes me happier than living in anger.

[NewLiberty]

My guess is that there is too much fear and too much greed.

I'd add narcissism to that list.  Feelings of entitlement, hubris and the like are among of those things that can allow the philosophically immature to put their own short term interests over the survival of their ethics.

[mdude77]

My guess is that there is too much fear and too much greed. I strongly believe there are very few psychos who enjoy hurting people, and that the vast majority of crimes in this world are commited because of fear and greed - those are our two biggest problems IMO. Some turn to god to control the fear and greed in them, but as an atheist I never understood why. I personally don't need to believe in god to be good to the people around me, or to know that being forgiving, generous and compassionate makes me happier than living in anger.

Believing in god doesn't mean you are godly, and conversely, not believing in god doesn't mean you are not godly.

But I'm a bit off topic here.

M

[Spendulus]

My guess is that there is too much fear and too much greed. I strongly believe there are very few psychos who enjoy hurting people, and that the vast majority of crimes in this world are commited because of fear and greed - those are our two biggest problems IMO. Some turn to god to control the fear and greed in them, but as an atheist I never understood why. I personally don't need to believe in god to be good to the people around me, or to know that being forgiving, generous and compassionate makes me happier than living in anger.

Believing in god doesn't mean you are godly, and conversely, not believing in god doesn't mean you are not godly.

But I'm a bit off topic here.

M

Granted, but that was a fairly astute observation. 

But the 'why' of people being one way or another does not really matter to those who must guard against threats, does it?  It is what it is...

Be that as it may I think most people are capable of assessing levels of danger of armed robbery, assault, murder and rape in the areas they live in, and I think they are capable of getting protection against what threats they perceive as realistic.

I trust most people to do a decent - admittedly imperfect - job of things like this.

I do not trust government agencies do to such a job for them.  I do trust government agencies to do an acceptable - certainly imperfect - job of things like background checks for firearms.

[TheButterZone]

I don't, and "certainly imperfect" is an understatement. Background checks can, and have been used to delay and deny sane, law-abiding adults their right to self-defense. Waiting periods, investigation periods, "system crashes", putting common NAMES on the terror watchlist, putting peaceful dissidents on the terror watchlist, the intrinsic registration of all law-abiding gun owners for future confiscation and history-repeating genocide (do you believe for one second that the system operates purely on RAM and cannot save anything anywhere?)

Background checks are prior restraint, and unconscionable. Criminals do not a) have to wait b) get background checks (and even if they do choose to play the background checked market, somehow, a not-insignificant amount "slip through the cracks" and pass the checks and commit violent crime, so much that it gives "gun control" criminals "justification" for the prohibition of all legal gun ownership.)

Government is a disease masquerading as its own cure.

[Spendulus]

I don't, and "certainly imperfect" is an understatement. Background checks can, and have been used to delay and deny sane, law-abiding adults their right to self-defense. Waiting periods, investigation periods, "system crashes", putting common NAMES on the terror watchlist, putting peaceful dissidents on the terror watchlist, the intrinsic registration of all law-abiding gun owners for future confiscation and history-repeating genocide (do you believe for one second that the system operates purely on RAM and cannot save anything anywhere?)

Background checks are prior restraint, and unconscionable. Criminals do not a) have to wait b) get background checks (and even if they do choose to play the background checked market, somehow, a not-insignificant amount "slip through the cracks" and pass the checks and commit violent crime, so much that it gives "gun control" criminals "justification" for the prohibition of all legal gun ownership.)

Government is a disease masquerading as its own cure.

One state that I know of is required to produce an audit report on the number of errors in the database they submit to the fed for NCIS.  The law they wrote to comply with the Brady bill back in the clinton years requires that audit.  The minimum acceptable quality level is 95% (5% errors).  So I looked one of the audit reports up.  Just for fun.

The error rate was 70%.

Basically, lots of DAs arrest people, charge them, then drop the cases for various reasons.  But they don't get around to backing out the felony charges.  That means in effect these guys walk around and both a background check to a commercial database, or check via an aggregating database such as NCIS, will say they have felony charges. 

Note that this does not mean that 70% of those from that state will be denied when they apply through NCIS but that of those who have a refusal for gun purchases from that state, 70% will be in error.

Now how about that?

[TheButterZone]

Yep, and then people who have never been convicted of a crime (and in the cases of malicious persecution, never even had enough evidence against them to meet the probable cause requirement) have to spend thousands if not tens of thousands more dollars (other than their primary defense) on legal fees to obtain findings of factual innocence, arrest record expungement, and STILL there's no guarantee that 100% of those dollars will not go to waste, because the government "messed up" (and yet no government official is ever penalized and forced to pay the citizen back). Cost-prohibiting the poor out of their right to self-defense, and too often into premature graves.