[ANN] Bitfury ASIC sales in EU and Europe

[allinvain]

Some strange thing with prices.

Why should one pay 7500 EUR for 400GH Full Kit in October if he can buy Starter Kit for 1000EUR + 15 extension boards x 350 EUR each = 6250 EUR in October?
So you can get 400GH for 6250 EUR instead of 7500 EUR, moreover you don't need to pay it one time if you are in a shortage of those euros.

Did I miss something?

You are right, its kind of pricing mistake with different delivery dates.

Yes, looks like this. And also you can start mining with Starter Kit in August, then buy extension boards in October. And Full Kit is only available in October. No reason to buy it.

Not true. Full kit is available for August delivery too.

[Rampion]

Some strange thing with prices.

Why should one pay 7500 EUR for 400GH Full Kit in October if he can buy Starter Kit for 1000EUR + 15 extension boards x 350 EUR each = 6250 EUR in October?
So you can get 400GH for 6250 EUR instead of 7500 EUR, moreover you don't need to pay it one time if you are in a shortage of those euros.

Did I miss something?

You are right, its kind of pricing mistake with different delivery dates.

Yes, looks like this. And also you can start mining with Starter Kit in August, then buy extension boards in October. And Full Kit is only available in October. No reason to buy it.

Not true. Full kit is available for August delivery too.

Yes, at 15,000€ x400GH/s. Not saying is not worth it, but all this pre-order stuff is very tiresome. When the potential profit is huge, then its ok to take a gamble. But when the price is adjusted to its expected ROI (as Avalon did with batch #3, and as I assume punin is doing by selling the "August delivery" at double the price of the "October delivery"), IMO the only way to go is immediate delivery (less than 7 days). Otherwise, we know how the story unfolds: a two weeks delay already throws your ROI expectations to the garbage bin.

[alfabitcoin]

Some strange thing with prices.

Why should one pay 7500 EUR for 400GH Full Kit in October if he can buy Starter Kit for 1000EUR + 15 extension boards x 350 EUR each = 6250 EUR in October?
So you can get 400GH for 6250 EUR instead of 7500 EUR, moreover you don't need to pay it one time if you are in a shortage of those euros.

Did I miss something?

You are right, its kind of pricing mistake with different delivery dates.

Yes, looks like this. And also you can start mining with Starter Kit in August, then buy extension boards in October. And Full Kit is only available in October. No reason to buy it.

Not true. Full kit is available for August delivery too.

Yes at 15000 eur. Why dont you read adano's post and price difference questions?

[Humax]

Yes, at 15,000€ x400GH/s. Not saying is not worth it, but all this pre-order stuff is very tiresome. When the potential profit is huge, then its ok to take a gamble. But when the price is adjusted to its expected ROI (as Avalon did with batch #3, and as I assume punin is doing by selling the "August delivery" at double the price of the "October delivery"), IMO the only way to go is immediate delivery (less than 7 days). Otherwise, we know how the story unfolds: a two weeks delay already throws your ROI expectations to the garbage bin.

Don't forget 24% VAT making it 18600€ 

[allinvain]

Yes, at 15,000€ x400GH/s. Not saying is not worth it, but all this pre-order stuff is very tiresome. When the potential profit is huge, then its ok to take a gamble. But when the price is adjusted to its expected ROI (as Avalon did with batch #3, and as I assume punin is doing by selling the "August delivery" at double the price of the "October delivery"), IMO the only way to go is immediate delivery (less than 7 days). Otherwise, we know how the story unfolds: a two weeks delay already throws your ROI expectations to the garbage bin.

Don't forget 24% VAT making it 18600€ 

Yep, it's a lot of moolah, dough, bones, etc, but theoretically it should pay for itself in a month unless the unfortunate happens and when you get it difficulty goes to the moon - or before you get it. Also if they do make their August delivery you would have 400 Gh/s before KnCMiner delivers their units.

[Rampion]

Yes, at 15,000€ x400GH/s. Not saying is not worth it, but all this pre-order stuff is very tiresome. When the potential profit is huge, then its ok to take a gamble. But when the price is adjusted to its expected ROI (as Avalon did with batch #3, and as I assume punin is doing by selling the "August delivery" at double the price of the "October delivery"), IMO the only way to go is immediate delivery (less than 7 days). Otherwise, we know how the story unfolds: a two weeks delay already throws your ROI expectations to the garbage bin.

Don't forget 24% VAT making it 18600€  

Yep, it's a lot of moolah, dough, bones, etc, but theoretically it should pay for itself in a month unless the unfortunate happens and when you get it difficulty goes to the moon - or before you get it. Also if they do make their August delivery you would have 400 Gh/s before KnCMiner delivers their units.

The problem is "theoretically". When you buy a machine TODAY that you will receive TOMORROW, then you can estimate your ROI and take your decision, as per ASICMiner offer. So, if your 400GH/s unit was to arrive tomorrow, you could say "I would achieve ROI in 30 days at constant difficulty, that means that I'll b/e (in BTC) for sure and I'll probably have a nice ROI", and you buy.

When the ROI would be one month "at current and constant difficulty", but the delivery is *expected* for August, then you're again repeating the same old pre-order pattern. You buy because you *hope* to receive the machine in the advertised timeframe, and then you have to face delay after delay.

Let's remember that NO ASIC VENDOR has EVER honored a deadline, apart from ASICMiner - but that's different, because they had the products in stock. Let's say that no pre-order ASIC vendor has EVER honored a single deadline.

We have a very good example of how the "unit is priced higher because ROI expectation is higher" strategy played out. Avalon batch #3. Yeah, if we had received the unit when it was supposed to arrive (early May), the price was spot on. But 3/4 weeks later, it was already a bad investment for its customers.

This is quite similar: if the unit really arrives in August, then 15,000€ is a fair price. But, what if it arrives in mid September?

No CC payment allowed, so no way to process a chargeback. You need to have faith on the vendor's honesty if you request a refund.

All this is kind of fucked up for me, all this "gambling" is getting very tiresome, at the end most of miners are fucked and losing money.

[Adano]

Yes, at 15,000€ x400GH/s. Not saying is not worth it, but all this pre-order stuff is very tiresome. When the potential profit is huge, then its ok to take a gamble. But when the price is adjusted to its expected ROI (as Avalon did with batch #3, and as I assume punin is doing by selling the "August delivery" at double the price of the "October delivery"), IMO the only way to go is immediate delivery (less than 7 days). Otherwise, we know how the story unfolds: a two weeks delay already throws your ROI expectations to the garbage bin.

Don't forget 24% VAT making it 18600€  

Yep, it's a lot of moolah, dough, bones, etc, but theoretically it should pay for itself in a month unless the unfortunate happens and when you get it difficulty goes to the moon - or before you get it. Also if they do make their August delivery you would have 400 Gh/s before KnCMiner delivers their units.

Bitfury said it many times in Russian thread: guys get real ASAP! No one miner is going to pay for itself neither in month nor two months. Nobody will sell it that cheap.

[Rampion]

Yes, at 15,000€ x400GH/s. Not saying is not worth it, but all this pre-order stuff is very tiresome. When the potential profit is huge, then its ok to take a gamble. But when the price is adjusted to its expected ROI (as Avalon did with batch #3, and as I assume punin is doing by selling the "August delivery" at double the price of the "October delivery"), IMO the only way to go is immediate delivery (less than 7 days). Otherwise, we know how the story unfolds: a two weeks delay already throws your ROI expectations to the garbage bin.

Don't forget 24% VAT making it 18600€  

Yep, it's a lot of moolah, dough, bones, etc, but theoretically it should pay for itself in a month unless the unfortunate happens and when you get it difficulty goes to the moon - or before you get it. Also if they do make their August delivery you would have 400 Gh/s before KnCMiner delivers their units.

Bitfury said it many times in Russian thread: guys get real ASAP! No one miner is going to pay for it self neither in month nor two months. Nobody will sell it that cheap.

OK, fair. It's true that nobody sells money-printing machines that pay themselves in one month. But its also true that companies do not ask for free loans to customers. This preorder stuff is a win/win situation for the vendor, he gets the money in advance with the preorders, and then he buys the components to manufacture the unit with its customers money. Plus, at the beginning they realized they had to offer the units very cheap in order to get away with their pre-order model, now they realized people is just plain dumb and they raise the prices while still offering only preorders and not BUY NOW deals. So, the vendors should GET REAL ASAP too. And risk their money and not their customers. In that scenario, its pretty fair that they price the units how they like, which is very likely going to be a high price - like ASICMiner does.

[mmitech]

I would like to order few for me and my friends so Care to put a video of a working prototype, and how serious you are about your delivery time? because the last thing we need is a random estimations that wont make you any different from BFL and AVALON, we need solid plans for delivery.  

[papamoi]

hi guys

the pricing calculation seems little bit strange

i  had a comitment with bitfury for one price since march  and for delivery in july/august . and then suddenly he decided to change the price from usd to btc and have multiply X the price by 5 for the chips.

Now i see these proposals in euro so i don t know how they are functionning but the way they are deciding the price it s little bit strange .

and i suggest you guys to make your returns calculation with the hashrate wich is shooting now

after he decide not to respect his comitment, i just suggest you to be careful with any investment you are doing

[allinvain]

The problem is "theoretically". When you buy a machine TODAY that you will receive TOMORROW, then you can estimate your ROI and take your decision, as per ASICMiner offer. So, if your 400GH/s unit was to arrive tomorrow, you could say "I would achieve ROI in 30 days at constant difficulty, that means that I'll b/e (in BTC) for sure and I'll probably have a nice ROI", and you buy.

When the ROI would be one month "at current and constant difficulty", but the delivery is *expected* for August, then you're again repeating the same old pre-order pattern. You buy because you *hope* to receive the machine in the advertised timeframe, and then you have to face delay after delay.

Let's remember that NO ASIC VENDOR has EVER honored a deadline, apart from ASICMiner - but that's different, because they had the products in stock. Let's say that no pre-order ASIC vendor has EVER honored a single deadline.

We have a very good example of how the "unit is priced higher because ROI expectation is higher" strategy played out. Avalon batch #3. Yeah, if we had received the unit when it was supposed to arrive (early May), the price was spot on. But 3/4 weeks later, it was already a bad investment for its customers.

This is quite similar: if the unit really arrives in August, then 15,000€ is a fair price. But, what if it arrives in mid September?

No CC payment allowed, so no way to process a chargeback. You need to have faith on the vendor's honesty if you request a refund.

All this is kind of fucked up for me, all this "gambling" is getting very tiresome, at the end most of miners are fucked and losing money.

Hmm, yeah   it is a big gamble and a lot of trust had to be placed in the vendor. What really is getting tiresome for me is having to constantly reinvest btc in hardware just to keep up with everyone else and the rising difficulty. It seems the mining game is slowly morphing in a game best left played by those with spare cash and/or deep pockets.

Another thing working against us (as far as purchasing this unit) is the low btc/eur price. 18K EUR is a lot of btc now :/ Damn.

[allinvain]

hi guys

the pricing calculation seems little bit strange

i  had a comitment with bitfury for one price since march  and for delivery in july/august . and then suddenly he decided to change the price from usd to btc and have multiply X the price by 5 for the chips.

Now i see these proposals in euro so i don t know how they are functionning but the way they are deciding the price it s little bit strange .

and i suggest you guys to make your returns calculation with the hashrate wich is shooting now

after he decide not to respect his comitment, i just suggest you to be careful with any investment you are doing

You are talking about different people here. Bitfury provides the chips, the OP is the reseller/distributor.

[papamoi]

hi

they are working together

[Adano]

Yes, at 15,000€ x400GH/s. Not saying is not worth it, but all this pre-order stuff is very tiresome. When the potential profit is huge, then its ok to take a gamble. But when the price is adjusted to its expected ROI (as Avalon did with batch #3, and as I assume punin is doing by selling the "August delivery" at double the price of the "October delivery"), IMO the only way to go is immediate delivery (less than 7 days). Otherwise, we know how the story unfolds: a two weeks delay already throws your ROI expectations to the garbage bin.

Don't forget 24% VAT making it 18600€  

Yep, it's a lot of moolah, dough, bones, etc, but theoretically it should pay for itself in a month unless the unfortunate happens and when you get it difficulty goes to the moon - or before you get it. Also if they do make their August delivery you would have 400 Gh/s before KnCMiner delivers their units.

Bitfury said it many times in Russian thread: guys get real ASAP! No one miner is going to pay for it self neither in month nor two months. Nobody will sell it that cheap.

OK, fair. It's true that nobody sells money-printing machines that pay themselves in one month. But its also true that companies do not ask for free loans to customers. This preorder stuff is a win/win situation for the vendor, he gets the money in advance with the preorders, and then he buys the components to manufacture the unit with its customers money. Plus, at the beginning they realized they had to offer the units very cheap in order to get away with their pre-order model, now they realized people is just plain dumb and they raise the prices while still offering only preorders and not BUY NOW deals. So, the vendors should GET REAL ASAP too. And risk their money and not their customers. In that scenario, its pretty fair that they price the units how they like, which is very likely going to be a high price - like ASICMiner does.

Competition between asic makers will make them real very soon. By the way, bitfury was warning us like this when we were making our preorders - 120 GH for $2000 with uncertain delivery in August - October. There was no tested chip yet, there were nothing besides words.

[MXRider]

If someone from US is looking for a hosting or a pass-through, send me a PM. I've a company with valid EU VAT ID and I live in Finland close to punin and BFSB.

[one4many]

..... By the way, bitfury was warning us like this when we were making our preorders - 120 GH for $2000 with uncertain delivery in August - October. There was no tested chip yet, there were nothing besides words.

Just for reference ... where can I see a working chip in a production ready board!?
Has anybody a link for me? (Not the pics from the web-shop please)

Cheers

   oen4many

[Foofighter]

..... By the way, bitfury was warning us like this when we were making our preorders - 120 GH for $2000 with uncertain delivery in August - October. There was no tested chip yet, there were nothing besides words.

Just for reference ... where can I see a working chip in a production ready board!?
Has anybody a link for me? (Not the pics from the web-shop please)

Cheers

   oen4many

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228677.new;topicseen#new

[Loredo]

The problem is "theoretically". When you buy a machine TODAY that you will receive TOMORROW, then you can estimate your ROI and take your decision, as per ASICMiner offer. ...

 if the unit really arrives in August, then 15,000€ is a fair price. But, what if it arrives in mid September?

No CC payment allowed, so no way to process a chargeback. You need to have faith on the vendor's honesty if you request a refund.

All this is kind of fucked up for me, all this "gambling" is getting very tiresome, at the end most of miners are fucked and losing money.

+1.  While there is no reason to doubt bitfury's integrity, of course we know "shit happens" for everyone in high-tech development.

Their price schedule has, presumably, very well thought-out time values to waiting for delivery, but no assurances of those delivery times being met.

I'm taking nothing away from this venture or its founders.  I'm only saying that sometime, somewhere, the community at large is going to have to draw a line in the sand on the pre-purchase model, or continue with the cycle of ill will, anger, disappointment, and suspicion towards vendors.

[jspielberg]

The BTC economy is not a debt based economy.

This is what it looks like when capitalism, btc, and demand outstripping supply collide.

[mistfpga]

Hi,

First off, congratulations, nice work

EDIT: scracth the stuff below, i was being blind, it was on the website when you change the delivery country.
=====


Sorry this is a bit of a boring post about VAT.

I have a UK VAT registered business, and I assume you are ALV registered in Finland (I think any company that does business worth more than 35k has to be ALV registered).  Importing to a VAT registered business should be VAT free within the EU VAT zone.

Anyway, it seems the import laws are a bit crap in this area, and a UK company cannot put a claim in to the Finnish govt to claim the tax back. The only solution that is reasonable is we exchange registration numbers and you not to charge me VAT.  

Is there a mechanism for this so I dont get stung for 24% I cannot claim back...?

from
(about halfway down the page)
http://www.brighton-accountants.com/blog/vat-uk-finland/

(also I think but am not 100% sure, but because it needs assembly it might not incur uk VAT at all, but I am not an accountant nor lawyer - and for me it doesnt matter I can claim the UK VAT back anyway from the UK government, Cant put a claim into the Finnish govt tho.)

Importing goods from Finland

A VAT-registered UK business importing goods from Finland should give the Finnish supplier its UK VAT registration number (including the GB prefix) so that Finnish ALV does not get charged.

If ALV is charged, the UK business cannot reclaim it on their UK VAT return or by a direct claim to the Finnish tax authorities.

The best that the UK business can do in these circumstances is to confirm its VAT registration number to the Finnish supplier, then ask for a full credit note and for the goods to be re-invoiced without ALV.

Thanks,

Steve