[BitFunder] IceDrill.ASIC IPO (235 Thash Mining Operation powered by HashFast)

[cedivad]

I just wanted to say that you have been negotiating with HashFast until October. Now, i don't have a dime in this security, but i would be wondering what those long discussions have been about during this 100 days.

Looking forward for when you will finally be able to release some details of the agreement you seem to be going to sign with HF.

(but i don't have a lot of hope on it either)

[_mr_e]

I thought they had the miner protection program... What is there to even negotiate?

[EduardoDeCastro]

^^No.  Miner protection was for consumer lots, think "retail."  IceDrill bought @ wholesale rate, without miner protection.  This was stated somewhere in the first few pages of this thread.

[bitcoinermax]

I just wanted to say that you have been negotiating with HashFast until October. Now, i don't have a dime in this security, but i would be wondering what those long discussions have been about during this 100 days.

Looking forward for when you will finally be able to release some details of the agreement you seem to be going to sign with HF.

(but i don't have a lot of hope on it either)

So how is your lawsuit progressing? Do you have your units yet?

[lenny_]

I agree with previous posts. We should be definitely mining on p2pool local node. DeadTerra, please keep us updated with work being done on mine.

Regards,
lenny

[Flashman]

It's going to be fascinating to see how this develops.

I'm sure Montreal was a lovely choice due to proximity to Ciara and power costs.  But have you ever looked at Canadian and Quebec corporate tax rates?

They just got cut.

http://business.financialpost.com/2014/01/22/canada-overtakes-u-s-as-second-best-place-in-the-world-to-do-business/

and we're high on this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom
and this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World

And Canada has specifically said you don't need an MTL to do anything with bitcoin. Only taxes on it are capital gains tax on the difference in value between when you receive it, and when you sell it.

[Jutarul]

^^No.  Miner protection was for consumer lots, think "retail."  IceDrill bought @ wholesale rate, without miner protection.  This was stated somewhere in the first few pages of this thread.

Not choosing the MPP is one of the few things IceDrill got right. The MPP is worthless, since the only thing backing it is a fraudulent company. The MPP was marketed as a protection against hash power growth - but given the promised delivery dates and the wholesale pricing at that time IceDrill didn't need that kind of protection. In hindsight the MPP is simply another one of those "plays" by the company to lead you into a false sense of security and defraud you on another level. Customers who haven't understood that by now are beyond hope.

I agree with previous posts. We should be definitely mining on p2pool local node. DeadTerra, please keep us updated with work being done on mine.

Regards,
lenny

The p2pool is a protocol which allows participants to combine hashing power in a decentralized fashion and solves the granularity problem for bitcoin mining somewhat. However, the total hashing power in a p2pool still needs to be about 1% of the global hashing power for them to be competitive - another aspect is that the overhead puts you at a disadvantage w/r to centralized pools. Thus if you're the entity which adds 50% to the pool, you may as well not do it. It's smarter to gang up with a few other minor players and come up with a more centralized mining pool solution which is more efficient.

I just wanted to say that you have been negotiating with HashFast until October. Now, i don't have a dime in this security, but i would be wondering what those long discussions have been about during this 100 days.

Looking forward for when you will finally be able to release some details of the agreement you seem to be going to sign with HF.

(but i don't have a lot of hope on it either)

From what I can tell, IceDrill tried to position themselves as a partner to HashFast and as such they interacted with HashFast in a different manner than retail customers. Also, due to the size of the commitment, the fate of IceDrill and HashFast is more or less aligned, which gives IceDrill somewhat of a leverage (mutual assured destruction). So far the irrationality in the "partnership" originates from HashFast. Expect more details as this story unfolds, but as long as the source of the "irrationality" is not clear it is hard to make a prediction on whether the situation can be cured.

And Canada has specifically said you don't need an MTL to do anything with bitcoin. Only taxes on it are capital gains tax on the difference in value between when you receive it, and when you sell it.

The tax question is something which relates to the company structure and to the location of where the bitcoins are actually generated. It should certainly be answered/engaged by IceDrill in a timely manner. It is my understanding that the hashing power can be located anywhere without making any commitments to a particular tax jurisdiction, because hashing is a computational service which doesn't do anything except finding a solution to a NP-complete problem.

[raskul]

^^No.  Miner protection was for consumer lots, think "retail."  IceDrill bought @ wholesale rate, without miner protection.  This was stated somewhere in the first few pages of this thread.

Not choosing the MPP is one of the few things IceDrill got right. The MPP is worthless, since the only thing backing it is a fraudulent company. The MPP was marketed as a protection against hash power growth - but given the promised delivery dates and the wholesale pricing at that time IceDrill didn't need that kind of protection. In hindsight the MPP is simply another one of those "plays" by the company to lead you into a false sense of security and defraud you on another level. Customers who haven't understood that by now are beyond hope.

I agree with previous posts. We should be definitely mining on p2pool local node. DeadTerra, please keep us updated with work being done on mine.

Regards,
lenny

The p2pool is a protocol which allows participants to combine hashing power in a decentralized fashion and solves the granularity problem for bitcoin mining somewhat. However, the total hashing power in a p2pool still needs to be about 1% of the global hashing power for them to be competitive - another aspect is that the overhead puts you at a disadvantage w/r to centralized pools. Thus if you're the entity which adds 50% to the pool, you may as well not do it. It's smarter to gang up with a few other minor players and come up with a more centralized mining pool solution which is more efficient.

I just wanted to say that you have been negotiating with HashFast until October. Now, i don't have a dime in this security, but i would be wondering what those long discussions have been about during this 100 days.

Looking forward for when you will finally be able to release some details of the agreement you seem to be going to sign with HF.

(but i don't have a lot of hope on it either)

From what I can tell, IceDrill tried to position themselves as a partner to HashFast and as such they interacted with HashFast in a different manner than retail customers. Also, due to the size of the commitment, the fate of IceDrill and HashFast is more or less aligned, which gives IceDrill somewhat of a leverage (mutual assured destruction). So far the irrationality in the "partnership" originates from HashFast. Expect more details as this story unfolds, but as long as the source of the "irrationality" is not clear it is hard to make a prediction on whether the situation can be cured.

And Canada has specifically said you don't need an MTL to do anything with bitcoin. Only taxes on it are capital gains tax on the difference in value between when you receive it, and when you sell it.

The tax question is something which relates to the company structure and to the location of where the bitcoins are actually generated. It should certainly be answered/engaged by IceDrill in a timely manner. It is my understanding that the hashing power can be located anywhere without making any commitments to a particular tax jurisdiction, because hashing is a computational service which doesn't do anything except finding a solution to a NP-complete problem.

so turn icedrill into a scapegoat for hashfast delays? i think not.

[Minor Miner]

And Canada has specifically said you don't need an MTL to do anything with bitcoin. Only taxes on it are capital gains tax on the difference in value between when you receive it, and when you sell it.

I think you may want to consult a CA in Canada.   That is not correct.   If you bought the coin from me and then resold it, yes, it would be a capital gain for you.   If you did that all day long, it is called income and is taxed as such.
If you are "producing" the coins your cost basis is zero so it is 100% revenue the day your pool awards you coins and you can deduct your expenses from that revenue and then you can pay tax on the difference.
Do not mistake tax treatment for something you are doing as a business vs. something you do personally a few times a year.   A great example is homebuilders (USA too).   You can flip up to six houses a year in the USA and still have them be capital gains.   More than that and you are doing it as a business and it is all income tax.
MTL is a regulatory license it has nothing to do with income tax.   That is like saying "canada does not require cab drivers to have a taxi license, so cab drivers in canada do not pay income tax".

[Flashman]

Not producing "winning" which comes under lotteries which aren't taxed, so value for capital gains is fair value at time of receipt, same as if you won a muscle car in a raffle and later sold it.

[Minor Miner]

Not producing "winning" which comes under lotteries which aren't taxed, so value for capital gains is fair value at time of receipt, same as if you won a muscle car in a raffle and later sold it.

I now know why my companies' audits with Revenue Canada and the IRS have been so easy, they are used to dealing with people that are absolutely insane in their theories for "why they did not pay tax".   Wow.    You realize those people at H and R Block are not accountants right?   Did you ever think why they might be available to work 6 weeks a year doing taxes for people?    Seems like experts like that would have full time jobs....

[Flashman]

Not producing "winning" which comes under lotteries which aren't taxed, so value for capital gains is fair value at time of receipt, same as if you won a muscle car in a raffle and later sold it.

Lottery winnings in Canada are not taxed because the revenue already goes to the government

False, large lotteries are run by the government, but there are many other lotteries that the government does not get revenue from.

Next "Canadian taxes can't possibly be good because we threw tea in Boston harbor" expert please.

[Minor Miner]

Not producing "winning" which comes under lotteries which aren't taxed, so value for capital gains is fair value at time of receipt, same as if you won a muscle car in a raffle and later sold it.

Lottery winnings in Canada are not taxed because the revenue already goes to the government

False, large lotteries are run by the government, but there are many other lotteries that the government does not get revenue from.
Next "Canadian taxes can't possibly be good because we threw tea in Boston harbor" expert please.

Let's end this derailment.   Flash you are wrong.   Go pay $500 and ask a CA.  You know what that is correct?  In Canada there are LARGE differences between a Chartered Accountant and a CPA, CMA, CGA etc.  You need a CA.   
There is so much wrong with your theory, it frightens me.   Start a lottery then.   Did you NOTICE all the LAWS about who can "raffle" off cars etc?   ICEDRILL is NOT a registered non profit that has applied to the provincial and federal government to have an ongoing daily "lottery" that they will "win" that lottery and not pay taxes on their "prizes".
Actually in your example, the bitcoin protocol itself would need to be registered as the "lottery" and IceDrill would just be a participant.   Let me know when you find that registration.
God, no wonder there are so many federal agents using this forums with idiots like you spreading FUD that people do not need to pay taxes.   

[rtt]

3, We are currently actively negotiating with them regarding the delayed shipping, it is a process but we are making progress. Please be patient as soon as we have something solid and signed, we will tell you guys how it will affect the public share holder and the IceDrill project.

4, My personal opinion is that in terms of BTC it  will be hard to break even short term due to the massive difficulty increase and the delays we have encountered, but that in the long term through hard work, reinvestment and innovation, I hope we should be able to break even in BTC terms. I am personally a public and private investor, I as much as anyone want to see this venture succeed.
//DeaDTerra

Dude, we were sold a great story: hashing to begin in October-November. For that we funded the whole project & HashFast.
Now we are 3 months late, only starting to ramp up, having lost all of early advantage and income -- those 3 months would've given us ROI by now.

Why? Because of a shitty contract? Because of those lying weasels? Because of something else?

Someone's gotta pay.

[dropt]

Hi,
Thank you for the questions.

1, I will have more info on that by next week. Hopefully within a couple of weeks, we don't want to rush things but we are working on it.

2, We are considering it, as I have understood it, it is a matter of tuning the software to P2Pool. The software we are using is early on, hopefully it will be improved over time. We are keeping P2Pool in mind and in the long term it is one of the solutions we are considering together with solo mining, and split pool mining.

3, We are currently actively negotiating with them regarding the delayed shipping, it is a process but we are making progress. Please be patient as soon as we have something solid and signed, we will tell you guys how it will affect the public share holder and the IceDrill project.

4, My personal opinion is that in terms of BTC it  will be hard to break even short term due to the massive difficulty increase and the delays we have encountered, but that in the long term through hard work, reinvestment and innovation, I hope we should be able to break even in BTC terms. I am personally a public and private investor, I as much as anyone want to see this venture succeed.

//DeaDTerra

Hi DeaDTerra, thanks again for taking the time to answer the groups questions.  Could you do us another favour?  The next time you talk to Willem (or whoever), could you kindly ask him WTF he/they have been doing for the last three months while we were all waiting for HF to deliver?  

I understand that those running the show don't want to rush things, that software needs tuning, that an automated dividend payout system and a method for "real-time" monitoring of the stats is in the works but not completed.  But really now, it's not as if the schedule was pushed ahead by 3 months causing a crunch of the projected timeline.  It was extended three months, so really, what is going on behind the scenes?  I get the feeling that absolutely nothing was done in preparation.  It's as if everyone sat around shrugging with this idea that there's nothing to do until a miner shows up.

[paul3]

We are currently doing a audit of our books, we are aiming to have something. We are aiming to post public financial report at the end of the January.

DeaDTerra, any updates on the public financial report?

In the main Hashfast thread are several people receiving shipping notifications for batch #2 orders. When was the Icedrill order made, before or after batch #2 orders opened?

[dropt]

We are currently doing a audit of our books, we are aiming to have something. We are aiming to post public financial report at the end of the January.

DeaDTerra, any updates on the public financial report?

In the main Hashfast thread are several people receiving shipping notifications for batch #2 orders. When was the Icedrill order made, before or after batch #2 orders opened?

IIRC it was made well before B2 orders opened.

[cedivad]

IIRC it was made well before B2 orders opened.

It should have been made before batch 1 went public/retail.

[_mr_e]

I'll just leave this here:

https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=4582.msg114934#msg114934

[dropt]

IIRC it was made well before B2 orders opened.

It should have been made before batch 1 went public/retail.

I'd say that I agree with you, and that it was made before B1 went public.  That aside, appeasing a single customer with false hopes and promises is a lot easier than appeasing 400 individual customers.