► ► ►HashFast Endorsement

[ninjarobot]

I'd like to confirm that HashFast will offer refunds on orders that are not shipped by Dec 31st.

The Oct-Dec timeframe is when these miners will earn back the vast majority of the investment cost. If anything the Oct 20-30 shipping date is what justifies the high cost of this unit. Take that away and you might end up with an expensive heating element. I don't like it either but that is the reality of an exponentially increasing difficulty. One day it is pure gold, the next a lump of coal.

Also, what happens if the specs of the final product are significantly different from what was sold in the pre-order? E.g. 2+ Watt/GH etc.
 
When it comes to refunds - I expect those to be done in BTC not USD. You take orders in BTC, you refund orders in BTC.

Naturally I hope everything goes well and HashFast meets their announced Oct. shipping date.

[Minor Miner]

Shipping is expected in October, but refunds will be offered if nothing is shipped by Dec 31st...
You can cut the deja vu with a knife.

How do we get a refund when the money is being used for NRE?  So, the foundry, board maker and assembler all have contracts to give back the advance payments if they do not complete before dec31 so that hashfast can give it back to us?   I would like to see the contract since the mask payment must have been made already if you are getting wafers back in two months.

[Ytterbium]

Shipping is expected in October, but refunds will be offered if nothing is shipped by Dec 31st...
You can cut the deja vu with a knife.

How do we get a refund when the money is being used for NRE?  So, the foundry, board maker and assembler all have contracts to give back the advance payments if they do not complete before dec31 so that hashfast can give it back to us?   I would like to see the contract since the mask payment must have been made already if you are getting wafers back in two months.

Yes, this needs to be explained.

One way would be to have contracts with suppliers with performance guarantees - A company like Flextronics might be able to offer that, but in USD obviously.

But right now we don't even know who's going to be assembling units.

Another possibility would be they're planning on running off a massive number of chips themselves and can mine the necessary BTC to do refunds.

Of course, to be fair: everyone who's pre-ordered from a competitor or invested in another IPO has an economic incentive to see these guys fail to raise funding, including me.  If they fail, it means a few PH of chips not out there mining, and it means a few more btc for everyone who's currently mining before difficulty reaches a singularity

[BitCsByBit]

I'd like to confirm that HashFast will offer refunds on orders that are not shipped by Dec 31st.

As cypherdoc alluded to, we are also finalizing a further guarantee for miners who purchase our equipment. We want to make sure our customers are successful. We are putting together the final touches to this program right now. When launched we will offer it to all existing purchasers at no additional charge.

We are currently having trouble with integrating BitPay, but we are actively working on that.

1.5 MONTHS LATE?

So the actual guaranteed shipping date is December 31, not "late october!?!?!?!?"

Also, how exactly are you going to be able to fund these refunds?  Pre-mining through november and december ?  

More like 2 months. Whole November and entire December.

[crumbs]

Shipping is expected in October, but refunds will be offered if nothing is shipped by Dec 31st...
You can cut the deja vu with a knife.

How do we get a refund when the money is being used for NRE?  So, the foundry, board maker and assembler all have contracts to give back the advance payments if they do not complete before dec31 so that hashfast can give it back to us?   I would like to see the contract since the mask payment must have been made already if you are getting wafers back in two months.

Yes, this needs to be explained.

One way would be to have contracts with suppliers with performance guarantees - A company like Flextronics might be able to offer that, but in USD obviously.

But right now we don't even know who's going to be assembling units.

Another possibility would be they're planning on running off a massive number of chips themselves and can mine the necessary BTC to do refunds.

Of course, to be fair: everyone who's pre-ordered from a competitor or invested in another IPO has an economic incentive to see these guys fail to raise funding, including me.  If they fail, it means a few PH of chips not out there mining, and it means a few more btc for everyone who's currently mining before difficulty reaches a singularity

I'm sorry, but here's common sense 101:
If pre-order sales are used to fund a project, there is exactly (the expenditures to date) *less* money available for refunds at each step of the way.  Full refunds are out of the question.

[Ytterbium]

I'd like to confirm that HashFast will offer refunds on orders that are not shipped by Dec 31st.

As cypherdoc alluded to, we are also finalizing a further guarantee for miners who purchase our equipment. We want to make sure our customers are successful. We are putting together the final touches to this program right now. When launched we will offer it to all existing purchasers at no additional charge.

We are currently having trouble with integrating BitPay, but we are actively working on that.

1.5 MONTHS LATE?

So the actual guaranteed shipping date is December 31, not "late october!?!?!?!?"

Also, how exactly are you going to be able to fund these refunds?  Pre-mining through november and december ?  

More like 2 months. Whole November and entire December.

Uh, you're right... It is two months, plus however many days before the end of October they're supposed to ship.

So really it's like 2.25 months.

Either way, it's total insanity.

[cypherdoc]

Of course, to be fair: everyone who's pre-ordered from a competitor or invested in another IPO has an economic incentive to see these guys fail to raise funding, including me.  If they fail, it means a few PH of chips not out there mining, and it means a few more btc for everyone who's currently mining before difficulty reaches a singularity

i'm glad to see you acknowledge this as it is absolutely true.

also, now that KNC has it's affiliate program running, anyone of you participating in that has an even greater allegiance with KNC and should be held accountable for it.

[DumbFruit]

Water "cooling" is actually a misnomer.  The water is merely a heat transfer system.  Much like a copper heat sink is a heat transfer system.  Nobody would call that "copper cooling".

Are you saying cooling isn't a "heat transfer system"? Your distinction doesn't make any sense.

We don't call it copper cooling, but we do call it a copper heatsink, and it does cool the object on which it's attached by transferring the heat away from the object in question.

While a heatsink doesn't reduce the temperature below ambient temperature, that's not a necessary qualifier for "cooling".

So.. No, water cooling is not a misnomer. Water is used to cool the object in question.

[papamoi]

AGAIN

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY

[HeRetiK]

AGAIN

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY

i like you.

[plasmoske]

Also, how exactly are you going to be able to fund these refunds?  Pre-mining through november and december ? 

Damn that's a good scam. I seriously need to start my own ASIC company lol.

[Xialla]

I'd like to confirm that HashFast will offer refunds on orders that are not shipped by Dec 31st.

..so you are promise to deliver you product to the end of October and in case of any fail, you want to hold customer hard earned money for next 2 months?



SPLENDID

[jspielberg]

Frankly worst case - if HashFast isn't able to deliver by years end, that would still be faster delivery than Avalon B3 units (3+ months late) and they didn't have a refund option up front.

Personally i like that there is a backstop to how long it will take.  I am sure that BFL customers would have loved to have this in place when they ordered.

I do actually see this raising the bar a little... though there are still some questions about the refund that haven't been answered:
Worst case would refunds be in USD or BTC?
What about international customers?

I think Metabank set a good example for pricing in dollars, but only accepting and refunding in BTC.
I would recommend the same.
Obviously the community would prefer BTC.  

Edit-
I now see that this has been answered in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270384.msg2903338#msg2903338
Refunds will be in BTC.
It is good to see this moving in a positive direction!

[crumbs]

Frankly worst case - if HashFast isn't able to deliver by years end, that would still be faster delivery than Avalon B3 units (3+ months late) and they didn't have a refund option up front.

Personally i like that there is a backstop to how long it will take.  I am sure that BFL customers would have loved to have this in place when they ordered.

I do actually see this raising the bar a little... though there are still some questions about the refund that haven't been answered:
Worst case would refunds be in USD or BTC?
What about international customers?

I think Metabank set a good example for pricing in dollars, but only accepting and refunding in BTC.
I would recommend the same.
Obviously the community would prefer BTC.  

Edit-
I now see that this has been answered in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270384.msg2903338#msg2903338
Refunds will be in BTC.
It is good to see this moving in a positive direction!

Your pre-order money is being spent on research, development, production and marketing.
The emphasis is on the word *spent*. 
If, by the end of the year, there is no product to ship, there's also no money for refunds. 
Unless your money *was not spent,* which begs the question "why was it needed in the first place?"

[jspielberg]

Frankly worst case - if HashFast isn't able to deliver by years end, that would still be faster delivery than Avalon B3 units (3+ months late) and they didn't have a refund option up front.

Personally i like that there is a backstop to how long it will take.  I am sure that BFL customers would have loved to have this in place when they ordered.

I do actually see this raising the bar a little... though there are still some questions about the refund that haven't been answered:
Worst case would refunds be in USD or BTC?
What about international customers?

I think Metabank set a good example for pricing in dollars, but only accepting and refunding in BTC.
I would recommend the same.
Obviously the community would prefer BTC.  

Edit-
I now see that this has been answered in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270384.msg2903338#msg2903338
Refunds will be in BTC.
It is good to see this moving in a positive direction!

Your pre-order money is being spent on research, development, production and marketing.
The emphasis is on the word *spent*. 
If, by the end of the year, there is no product to ship, there's also no money for refunds. 
Unless your money *was not spent,* which begs the question "why was it needed in the first place?"

Crumbs -
I think I read originally when they first came on the scene that the company had received some amount of startup capital.  I don't know if it was stated or guessed at around $2M.
I would think that should be enough to cover the NRE for a 28nm especially if "partnered" with a team with the skill.
Why would they need our capital?  That is a tough one. 
I am trying to think of scenarios where miner purchases are just part of a larger sales strategy revolving around raw chips to big farms on one side, and small individual miners on the other.  Kind of like bitfury selling to 100TH and to metabank, and to the Tytus webstores.

[crumbs]

Frankly worst case - if HashFast isn't able to deliver by years end, that would still be faster delivery than Avalon B3 units (3+ months late) and they didn't have a refund option up front.

Personally i like that there is a backstop to how long it will take.  I am sure that BFL customers would have loved to have this in place when they ordered.

I do actually see this raising the bar a little... though there are still some questions about the refund that haven't been answered:
Worst case would refunds be in USD or BTC?
What about international customers?

I think Metabank set a good example for pricing in dollars, but only accepting and refunding in BTC.
I would recommend the same.
Obviously the community would prefer BTC.  

Edit-
I now see that this has been answered in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270384.msg2903338#msg2903338
Refunds will be in BTC.
It is good to see this moving in a positive direction!

Your pre-order money is being spent on research, development, production and marketing.
The emphasis is on the word *spent*.  
If, by the end of the year, there is no product to ship, there's also no money for refunds.  
Unless your money *was not spent,* which begs the question "why was it needed in the first place?"

Crumbs -
I think I read originally when they first came on the scene that the company had received some amount of startup capital.  I don't know if it was stated or guessed at around $2M.
I would think that should be enough to cover the NRE for a 28nm especially if "partnered" with a team with the skill.
Why would they need our capital?  That is a tough one.  
I am trying to think of scenarios where miner purchases are just part of a larger sales strategy revolving around raw chips to big farms on one side, and small individual miners on the other.  Kind of like bitfury selling to 100TH and to metabank, and to the Tytus webstores.

Well, there's the IceDrill deal, which makes the question even more relevant.  And i'm still not clear who gets the first slice of the delicious caek -- IceDrill or the Baby Jetsetters?

[SirWizz]

I am trying to think of scenarios where miner purchases are just part of a larger sales strategy revolving around raw chips to big farms on one side, and small individual miners on the other.  Kind of like bitfury selling to 100TH and to metabank, and to the Tytus webstores.

Try harder... I don't think there is anyone (sound of mind that is) willing to fund such a business plan all by themselves. The risks are just too high.

[jspielberg]

I am trying to think of scenarios where miner purchases are just part of a larger sales strategy revolving around raw chips to big farms on one side, and small individual miners on the other.  Kind of like bitfury selling to 100TH and to metabank, and to the Tytus webstores.

Try harder... I don't think there is anyone (sound of mind that is) willing to fund such a business plan all by themselves. The risks are just too high.

If the original intent was a mine (like 100Th or icedrill), then miners could just be the second line/smaller business. Frankly the bitfury folks seem to knocking it out of the park lately.  Maybe Hashfast is a similar model.

[cypherdoc]

this refund question is something i've been trying to get more info on myself as i am in the same boat you guys are much more than you think.  as in, i don't get paid unless this whole thing is successful and i have an order in place for BabyJets that i paid upfront for too.

btw, for those of you who keep insisting that i am just a shill, stop reading right here.  i'd much rather you just sit waffling out there in the wind having no real clue about what's going on with HashFast and to the asic marketplace in general, to your own detriment.  imo, you should be viewing me more as an important source of info or link to the company that can help you along in this process as i clearly post way more than the company reps have time for.  the smart guys are talking to me via pm's or emails trying to find out what's really going on while the other company shills that seem so eager to jump on board that new Reseller Program, show up here to criticize anyway they can.  and remember, i am not a company employee or representative.  i can say what i want when i want whether it is positive or negative about the company.  and i fully intend to do so.

having said all that, you need to realize a few things.  i too once viewed that 12/31 date as some sort of hard wall that if hit would result in an instant 100% request for refunds from all customers and bankruptcy for the company.  while an all out 100% refund request is possible, i don't think that will happen.  first, i think ppl are much more patient and forgiving about this process than you think.  there are alot of ppl who like HashFast and the ppl involved. i think they will give the company more time if need be to complete a workable solution, especially if they explain why. they realize that this is the tech industry and it's possible to have delays.  second, you may not realize it, but there is no shortage of VC capital poking around trying to buy equity positions in many of these companies. there are plenty of sources of money to tap into in case of a funding problem.  third, i don't think it is even going to be an issue.  ppl are buying via email now and most of the stuck orders in the system have been salvaged.  

there is going to be a machine and Simon still thinks it will be delivered on schedule.

[Bitcoinorama]

Of course, to be fair: everyone who's pre-ordered from a competitor or invested in another IPO has an economic incentive to see these guys fail to raise funding, including me.  If they fail, it means a few PH of chips not out there mining, and it means a few more btc for everyone who's currently mining before difficulty reaches a singularity

i'm glad to see you acknowledge this as it is absolutely true.

also, now that KNC has it's affiliate program running, anyone of you participating in that has an even greater allegiance with KNC and should be held accountable for it.

Personally I don't think it's wise to start any affiliate scheme prior to proving the chips work, I haven't been paid by anyone. I would like to work with KnC, but I'm not siding with anyone unequivocally until I've seen evidence that a working chip has been created. So for the record, I'm currently on nobody's payroll here. Unofficial spokesperson by a tentative connection vis à vis the Bitcoinorama Open Day Report and having performed enough background research to convince myself and share it, sure, but I've only ever told anyone to perform their own research and due diligence, whilst paying by a protected payment means. I've never told anyone to buy anything, I've always maintained you call and check for any purchase with your card issuing bank prior to committing. That's just common sense. Twist it as you like. Anyone else could visit a company and articulate an entertaining read whilst retaining an informative approach.