► ► ►HashFast Endorsement

[klee]

Actually it would have mattered a great deal.  The U.S. only had two nukes at the time, the Japanese could have destroyed LA or something forcing a stalemate/cold war situation. The Japanese actually had a nuclear program but gave it up, thinking that it would be too expensive even for the U.S. to try it.

Wow didn't know this!

[klee]

About BTCGarden:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264696.msg2922049#msg2922049

All I wanna say is even if HF is THE ASIC manufacturer in terms of quality, this is not a quarantee for success in this market.
A shitload of cheap Chinese hashes will have been released until HF delivers. How can you compete with quantity? Quality - go for 28nm.
But there we have more than 1 competitor and the most important factor is timing. It wouldn't matter if Japan could deploy an H-bomb a month after Hirosima happened. A plain nuclear bomb did the job...

I'm not sure I believe that.

You have to believe that quality versus quantity will win out at some point especially in this game.

Also alot of quality chips can be made cheaply

Btw, it appears a lot of Chinese chips are now happily hashing away in the wrong hands.

You mean Avalon? Do we know they hash?? Damn...

In any case I am beting on HF too through IceDrill 

[cypherdoc]

the way you've tended to address me so far has not encouraged any productive communication.  there's alot in that paragraph of yours.  what is it you want me to answer?

Oh just looking for a civil discussion on any or all points brought up in that post.

Or since you have such close ties with HashFast, maybe their opinion?

You can't deny that the landscape has changed regarding pricing since they've first announced their pricing. There are a number of other companies starting to come out with their prices and estimated delivery around the same time for much less.

at least you and i can now make some progress.

the Dec 31 Refund Policy is something they had in place before i even met them.  how they arrived at it, i don't know.  i can tell you that from their perspective it's fair and they've said that they fully plan on honoring it using different options i alluded to up further in this thread.

as for taking cc's we've already gone over that and if you really disagree you should bring it up with them.

the only change in "pricing" that i'm aware of is KNC's reduction to $5000 in Nov.  imo, and mine alone, it seems a little bit of a desperate move to retain customers.  the question is, can they deliver at that price and still remain profitable?   since you were at HashFast and signed an NDA, i'm sure that you're aware that HF believes their chip has significant performance efficiency advantages over KNC's as well as lower production costs.  

perhaps they have every right to have there pricing at $5600 which also happens to be the currently the best value out there?  no one actually knows until these chips and machines are actually out there chugging away.

I can agree that the power efficiency is probably much better if just looking at those numbers, however until coins received vs electric costs get to that level KnC Shipping quicker is much better (and the $600 you'd save would easily pay for the electricity gap between the lifetime of the machines)

However don't mistake this as me defending KnC, there are others being mentioned as well. xCrowd, "Smart Machine" that just popped up. There will be others but those two are saying they are going to be offering $6/GH for their products.

Personally I think any above $10/GH won't see the light of day in terms of ROI come end of October (This being if KnC Ships)

I think companies need to expect $3-7/GH by November to see a return. However at that rate even KnC doesn't look like a good deal.

BUT come to think of it, KnC knows how many orders they potentially need to deliver. If they feel the $5,000 price for their unit is a good deal then maybe I'm over speculating the Hashrate they will release.

Who knows, for me personally I won't buy another mining machine until we figure out exactly what companies CAN deliver, if at all. There are just too many companies out now. Back when KnC came out there was just Avalon, BFL, and a Russian Company called Metabank that was going to offer Bitfury units (Sounds real legit hah). KnC was an easy decision.

Now you have the following companies that all plan on selling some sort of ASIC. (In no specific order)

Avalon (Gen 2)
BFL
Bitfury
KnC
xCrowd
HashFast
VMC
Smart Machine
ASICMiner
Labcoin
BTCGarden
CoinTerra

let me know if I missed one. As you can see though that's A LOT of choices, just too many companies to choose from.

in my mind you can cross Avalon, BFL, and for sure BTCGarden off that after what happened today.  the only one on that list that i think has a chance to challenge HF is Cointerra.  but the fact is, they are 2 mo behind HF.  that is an eternity in today's market.  

clearly it's a leap of faith when dealing with any of these companies b/c we just don't know all the details.  and even if we did, i'm sure there are only a few of us that would understand what the hell we were looking at.  we're all dependent on the knowledge level and sophistication of the engineers involved as they're bumping up against the bleeding edge of new technology.  

in these situations, i do what i did.  get on a plane and go visit the ppl involved.  you know as well as i these guys are not a scam.  they're trying their best to produce a stellar product.  Simon has been working on this baby for 2 yrs on and off and more on clearly since the beginning of the year.  he's clearly a brilliant guy and quite frankly, he is the reason i've plunked my $ down on the table for my order.  it's a leap of faith no question.  but i truly believe they've created the best situation possible for themselves in creating a quality chip.  his team of 4 engineers on the front end with Uniquify on the back should be enough to produce what they say.  and you and i know that if they do it, it will make KNC's chip look like child's play and they will only be coming in one month later than them.  and as i said before, i like the fact that HF has engineers on the front end which unfortunately results in some business mistakes, like the cart the other nite.  i'm investing for the long run in the best technologists i can find.  b/c out of the Golden Nonce 1 will come the Golden Nonce 2, etc, etc.  Simon has the capability to make this all happen.  and, imo, there is no better than the guys out of Silicon Valley/PARC.  they have all the connections and resources nearby that can create synergies and afford a great advantage.

with time, clearly the cost is going to come down under $10/gh.  this will be good for small miners.  all these companies will have no choice but to compete for not only the whales but the minnows, its going to be that competitive.  will the mines drive out the small miners?  i don't know.  i think there is hope though which is why i'm willing to extend my setup beyond just my avalons.  and i don't want to be late.  i only started gpu mining in mid 2011.  i didn't think i'd ever pay them off but the coins generated from my setup have more than paid off my rig costs given the price increase.  so i'm just trying to grab and accumulate as many coins as i can before the next price ramp which is coming.  i'm also probably buying my setup with more of a philosophical mindset than most others.  i want to help decentralize the network as a solo miner.  that's just me and my dedication to Bitcoin.  

the HR is going to level off though at some point.  Jeffrey Paul, aka Sneak, made a great point on Lets Talk Bitcoin.  it can't go up forever in this cycle of asic development.  the constraint will be limited by the amount of USD that actors are going to be capable of or willing to throw at this space.  it's not infinite and it will peak out for a while.  the trick will be to buy enough equipment at a low enough price to make yourself a relevant actor.  who knows what that level will be or how much it will cost but i don't want to miss out on the asic revolution.

Can you ellaborate some more on why you think HF is better than all the others companies? Did you take a plane to
Sweden and China too to meet the engineering teams? Or is it that Sillicon Valley is the best?

You say KnC will be ONLY 1 month ahead - sorry man but I have to laugh. We are talking about the 28nm leading here.
HF may produce a better chip no doubt, but give me 50m lead and I can steal the golden metal from Bolt @100m sprint..

They're both 28nm at the moment.

No, I was only compelled to fly to Silicon Valley. Biased yes.

I am very curious though about the percentage of KnC customers switching to HF in case they start delivering LATE September, while Bitfury continues his epic run and HF offers a more compelling product..

You mean there's a downside to accepting cc's? 

[Ytterbium]

You mean there's a downside to accepting cc's?  

Downside for the company, upside for the customer.

And, since we would be the customers...

[cypherdoc]

You mean there's a downside to accepting cc's?  

Not for the customer, which is what we are...

 

Now we have an understanding

[klee]

the way you've tended to address me so far has not encouraged any productive communication.  there's alot in that paragraph of yours.  what is it you want me to answer?

Oh just looking for a civil discussion on any or all points brought up in that post.

Or since you have such close ties with HashFast, maybe their opinion?

You can't deny that the landscape has changed regarding pricing since they've first announced their pricing. There are a number of other companies starting to come out with their prices and estimated delivery around the same time for much less.

at least you and i can now make some progress.

the Dec 31 Refund Policy is something they had in place before i even met them.  how they arrived at it, i don't know.  i can tell you that from their perspective it's fair and they've said that they fully plan on honoring it using different options i alluded to up further in this thread.

as for taking cc's we've already gone over that and if you really disagree you should bring it up with them.

the only change in "pricing" that i'm aware of is KNC's reduction to $5000 in Nov.  imo, and mine alone, it seems a little bit of a desperate move to retain customers.  the question is, can they deliver at that price and still remain profitable?   since you were at HashFast and signed an NDA, i'm sure that you're aware that HF believes their chip has significant performance efficiency advantages over KNC's as well as lower production costs.  

perhaps they have every right to have there pricing at $5600 which also happens to be the currently the best value out there?  no one actually knows until these chips and machines are actually out there chugging away.

I can agree that the power efficiency is probably much better if just looking at those numbers, however until coins received vs electric costs get to that level KnC Shipping quicker is much better (and the $600 you'd save would easily pay for the electricity gap between the lifetime of the machines)

However don't mistake this as me defending KnC, there are others being mentioned as well. xCrowd, "Smart Machine" that just popped up. There will be others but those two are saying they are going to be offering $6/GH for their products.

Personally I think any above $10/GH won't see the light of day in terms of ROI come end of October (This being if KnC Ships)

I think companies need to expect $3-7/GH by November to see a return. However at that rate even KnC doesn't look like a good deal.

BUT come to think of it, KnC knows how many orders they potentially need to deliver. If they feel the $5,000 price for their unit is a good deal then maybe I'm over speculating the Hashrate they will release.

Who knows, for me personally I won't buy another mining machine until we figure out exactly what companies CAN deliver, if at all. There are just too many companies out now. Back when KnC came out there was just Avalon, BFL, and a Russian Company called Metabank that was going to offer Bitfury units (Sounds real legit hah). KnC was an easy decision.

Now you have the following companies that all plan on selling some sort of ASIC. (In no specific order)

Avalon (Gen 2)
BFL
Bitfury
KnC
xCrowd
HashFast
VMC
Smart Machine
ASICMiner
Labcoin
BTCGarden
CoinTerra

let me know if I missed one. As you can see though that's A LOT of choices, just too many companies to choose from.

in my mind you can cross Avalon, BFL, and for sure BTCGarden off that after what happened today.  the only one on that list that i think has a chance to challenge HF is Cointerra.  but the fact is, they are 2 mo behind HF.  that is an eternity in today's market.  

clearly it's a leap of faith when dealing with any of these companies b/c we just don't know all the details.  and even if we did, i'm sure there are only a few of us that would understand what the hell we were looking at.  we're all dependent on the knowledge level and sophistication of the engineers involved as they're bumping up against the bleeding edge of new technology.  

in these situations, i do what i did.  get on a plane and go visit the ppl involved.  you know as well as i these guys are not a scam.  they're trying their best to produce a stellar product.  Simon has been working on this baby for 2 yrs on and off and more on clearly since the beginning of the year.  he's clearly a brilliant guy and quite frankly, he is the reason i've plunked my $ down on the table for my order.  it's a leap of faith no question.  but i truly believe they've created the best situation possible for themselves in creating a quality chip.  his team of 4 engineers on the front end with Uniquify on the back should be enough to produce what they say.  and you and i know that if they do it, it will make KNC's chip look like child's play and they will only be coming in one month later than them.  and as i said before, i like the fact that HF has engineers on the front end which unfortunately results in some business mistakes, like the cart the other nite.  i'm investing for the long run in the best technologists i can find.  b/c out of the Golden Nonce 1 will come the Golden Nonce 2, etc, etc.  Simon has the capability to make this all happen.  and, imo, there is no better than the guys out of Silicon Valley/PARC.  they have all the connections and resources nearby that can create synergies and afford a great advantage.

with time, clearly the cost is going to come down under $10/gh.  this will be good for small miners.  all these companies will have no choice but to compete for not only the whales but the minnows, its going to be that competitive.  will the mines drive out the small miners?  i don't know.  i think there is hope though which is why i'm willing to extend my setup beyond just my avalons.  and i don't want to be late.  i only started gpu mining in mid 2011.  i didn't think i'd ever pay them off but the coins generated from my setup have more than paid off my rig costs given the price increase.  so i'm just trying to grab and accumulate as many coins as i can before the next price ramp which is coming.  i'm also probably buying my setup with more of a philosophical mindset than most others.  i want to help decentralize the network as a solo miner.  that's just me and my dedication to Bitcoin.  

the HR is going to level off though at some point.  Jeffrey Paul, aka Sneak, made a great point on Lets Talk Bitcoin.  it can't go up forever in this cycle of asic development.  the constraint will be limited by the amount of USD that actors are going to be capable of or willing to throw at this space.  it's not infinite and it will peak out for a while.  the trick will be to buy enough equipment at a low enough price to make yourself a relevant actor.  who knows what that level will be or how much it will cost but i don't want to miss out on the asic revolution.

Can you ellaborate some more on why you think HF is better than all the others companies? Did you take a plane to
Sweden and China too to meet the engineering teams? Or is it that Sillicon Valley is the best?

You say KnC will be ONLY 1 month ahead - sorry man but I have to laugh. We are talking about the 28nm leading here.
HF may produce a better chip no doubt, but give me 50m lead and I can steal the golden metal from Bolt @100m sprint..

They're both 28nm at the moment.

No, I was only compelled to fly to Silicon Valley. Biased yes.

I am very curious though about the percentage of KnC customers switching to HF in case they start delivering LATE September, while Bitfury continues his epic run and HF offers a more compelling product..

You mean there's a downside to accepting cc's? 

People may laugh at me but I always use coins when there is an option. It's what I did with Terrahash too even if it seems I will lose them now (no ROI).
I don't beleive there can be a grey area with cryptos, it is black or white. You either enter their parallel universe with all it's pros & cons or stay safe and wage slave. I hope in time all the speculators and profit only seekers will disappear in a magical way.
BTC is digital cash, everyone should wear pants and take responsibility for their transactions. Do your search and decide if you wanna pay -  you want safety nets? go back to your fiat world..

[cypherdoc]

Don't forget you can still order immediately at 800.609.3445 or email sales@hashfast.com.

[Bitcoinorama]

You mean there's a downside to accepting cc's?  

Not for the customer, which is what we are...

 

Now we have an understanding

No dude. He is talking about buyer protection in case anything with the manufacturer went awry. You were insinuating it was ok to lay several bets across various cards and cancel as you saw fit.

One is perfectly acceptable and what consumer protection is for, the other is fraudulent card usage, and illegal.

You really need to understand this, you're meant to be representing an above board company and encouraging malpractice directly from a spokesperson is not a healthy look. Just don't go there.

[cypherdoc]

You mean there's a downside to accepting cc's?  

Not for the customer, which is what we are...

 

Now we have an understanding

No dude. He is talking about buyer protection in case anything with the manufacturer went awry. You were insinuating it was ok to lay several bets across various cards and cancel as you saw fit.

One is perfectly acceptable and what consumer protection is for, the other is fraudulent card usage, and illegal.

You really need to understand this, you're meant to be representing an above board company and encouraging malpractice directly from a spokesperson is not a healthy look. Just don't go there.

dude, you really need to let these baseless allegations go.

guess how long i had my KNC cc order in place?  answer:  15 measly days from 7/13-7/28.  amount of order:  $21K

guess how long i had my Megabig cc order in place?  answer:  16 measly days from 7/20-8/6.  amount of order:  $40K

as i've said many times before, if i really wanted to hurt those companies, i would've made $1M orders at each of them and waited right up until the day before shipment to request a refund to inflict max pain.  get off your high horse.

my assessment of the rapidly evolving asic company landscape changed as more info became available.   that simple.

i think everyone has to realize that Bitcoinorama stands to lose his own personal investment if ppl defect from KNC.  that is where i think alot of his motivation is coming from to smash HF and anyone related to them in the most remote way.

[Bitcoinorama]

You mean there's a downside to accepting cc's?  

Not for the customer, which is what we are...

 

Now we have an understanding

No dude. He is talking about buyer protection in case anything with the manufacturer went awry. You were insinuating it was ok to lay several bets across various cards and cancel as you saw fit.

One is perfectly acceptable and what consumer protection is for, the other is fraudulent card usage, and illegal.

You really need to understand this, you're meant to be representing an above board company and encouraging malpractice directly from a spokesperson is not a healthy look. Just don't go there.

dude, you really need to let these baseless allegations go.

guess how long i had my KNC cc order in place?  answer:  15 measly days from 7/13-7/28.  amount of order:  $21K

guess how long i had my Megabig cc order in place?  answer:  16 measly days from 7/20-8/6.  amount of order:  $40K

as i've said many times before, if i really wanted to hurt those companies, i would've made $1M orders at each of them and waited right up until the day before shipment to request a refund to inflict max pain.  get off your high horse.

my assessment of the rapidly evolving asic company landscape changed as more info became available.   that simple.

i think everyone has to realize that Bitcoinorama stands to lose his own personal investment if ppl defect from KNC.  that is where i think alot of his motivation is coming from to smash HF and anyone related to them in the most remote way.

No. What you did was illegal. It's there in black and white. You admitted it publicly. Furthermore you represent this company and you are still participating as if your behaviour is acceptable.

I could delve into the many reasons as to why having a spokesman advocating fraud isn't beneficial for a fledgling company wanting to distance itself from fraudulent activity, whilst they are tentatively treading carefully to convince people they can deliver on time without secured payment means or offering refunds until well after their date if delivery. Especially after their dubious marketing activity, and claims to date.

How will I lose my personal investment? I paid by a protected payment means. KnC offer that.

You're truly awful at this;

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272891.0

[cypherdoc]

i think you're wrong.  it's not illegal to cancel an order you've not yet received.  ppl do it all the time for a variety of reasons.  and i happen to think alot of ppl on the forum are going thru the same scenario i have.  you're honestly trying to tell them they can't do this?

[yuriygeorge]

People may laugh at me but I always use coins when there is an option. It's what I did with Terrahash too even if it seems I will lose them now (no ROI).
I don't beleive there can be a grey area with cryptos, it is black or white. You either enter their parallel universe with all it's pros & cons or stay safe and wage slave. I hope in time all the speculators and profit only seekers will disappear in a magical way.
BTC is digital cash, everyone should wear pants and take responsibility for their transactions. Do your search and decide if you wanna pay -  you want safety nets? go back to your fiat world..

+1, although I'll still order with cc if it's available...why not. But, if you have a shitload of Bitcoins from previous mining ventures, then it would make sense to pay with Bitcoins. I don't...

No dude. He is talking about buyer protection in case anything with the manufacturer went awry. You were insinuating it was ok to lay several bets across various cards and cancel as you saw fit.

One is perfectly acceptable and what consumer protection is for, the other is fraudulent card usage, and illegal.

You really need to understand this, you're meant to be representing an above board company and encouraging malpractice directly from a spokesperson is not a healthy look. Just don't go there.

Is this still going on? Come on... I think you're reading way too much into what cypherdoc did with KNC, and it's coming off a little desperate and off-topic. But your call, do what you want.

Although it ain't no holy grail, I'm grateful cypherdoc is providing some info on HF, and I'm also grateful Bitcoinorama provided info on KNC. Personally, I have orders in both companies. I won't be surprised if both of them don't deliver on time, or a month or 2 late, so I'm just putting eggs in different baskets. It's 28 nm! People say KNC will deliver Sept/Oct, but who knows... What if it's Nov? and HF also Nov? It's a gamble. To me, KNC & HF seem to be a similar investment, although KNC is now at a higher stake to deliver on time. Competition is great. If HF starts rolling them out before KNC, then better hope HF is out of stock, and KNC buyers have no choice but to wait for KNC. But, if KNC delivers on time, then HF customers are stuck waiting/hoping until Dec. 31st or sooner. It is a disappointment since HF has a less incentive to deliver on time. But, I have faith that HF isn't going to try to screw people over and mine their ready-to-deliver equipment and ship last moment in December.  That would be messed up. I hope this Miner Protection Program will clear this up and will be an added incentive for HF to deliver as soon as possible.

[Bitcoinorama]

i think you're wrong.  it's not illegal to cancel an order you've not yet received.  ppl do it all the time for a variety of reasons.  and i happen to think alot of ppl on the forum are going thru the same scenario i have.  you're honestly trying to tell them they can't do this?

If the intent to breach contract exists, then yes it is a criminal offence open to prosecution. I posted the legal stance with links, you provided the evidence. I'm obv. not going to report you, i don't particularly care what you as an individual have done, but you are representing a company and must be more careful with your actions, and what you say. Even acknowledging the practice as acceptable is awful, morseo if you encourage it's existence.

Yes, I'm honestly telling people they cannot do this. It's fraud. It's illegal.

[cypherdoc]

i think you're wrong.  it's not illegal to cancel an order you've not yet received.  ppl do it all the time for a variety of reasons.  and i happen to think alot of ppl on the forum are going thru the same scenario i have.  you're honestly trying to tell them they can't do this?

If the intent to breach contract exists, then yes it is a criminal offence open to prosecution. I posted the legal stance with links, you provided the evidence. I'm obv. not going to report you, i don't particularly care what you as an individual have done, but you are representing a company and must be more careful with your actions, and what you say. Even acknowledging the practice as acceptable is awful, morseo if you encourage it's existence.

Yes, I'm honestly telling people they cannot do this. It's fraud. It's illegal.

well, that's the point.  i never intended to breach any contracts.  i've walked you thru my entire step by step thought process and timeline as to how my personal journey has evolved regarding these orders.  i'll admit that one post could have been worded much better to reflect this but i really was trying to describe what i see happening in the marketplace in aggregate as a result of these cc's.  but if you insist on taking the negative approach and hammering me with intentions of malice, i will continue to point to the facts as i've laid out as evidence to the contrary. 

if it comes down to it, i can easily verify those order holding dates and lengths of time to prove my innocence of intent.

[Minor Miner]

I am tired of reading this tangent.    It is polluting this forum.   I would say more but I started my own thread with my thoughts on this BS raised by bitcoinorama

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=273026.msg2925719

[nullspot]

I am tired of reading this tangent.    It is polluting this forum.

THIS.

Bitcoinoarama (and all other cypherdoc haters) -- please go find another thread to beat a dead horse about what constitutes fraud when canceling an order (since your condemnation requires the proof of "thought crime" to distinguish itself from otherwise valid use of a cancellation policy, I imagine its going to take another 30 forum pages to "hash" it out).

Following these damn forum threads for new information is a massive chore already. However valid your criticism may be, you're not winning any points by choking this thread with endless bickering and hair-splitting, making the rest of us have to wade through it in search of relevant info.

[cypherdoc]

for those of you waiting for the cart to come back up to order, that isn't a good idea.  the cart is still down so ppl are calling in on the 800 number and using email.

[Ytterbium]

It's obviously not fraud to cancel an order - although it's kind of a dick move.

However OBVIOUSLY we should want the best deal and the lowest risk for the customers, since we are the customers - this applies to HF and all the other ASIC makers. I don't know why anyone would think it would be a good idea to chop off our balls and hand them to them on a silver platter.

[dopamine]

Well Looks like I might need to cancel my order and maybe put the BTC into ICE.Drill looking at the hashrate go up like that kinda feels like even if you get top of line hardware you won't get a breakeven in over 6 months...

[minternj]

Cancel your order with who?