all finished

[beavertank]

Just curious, does anyone have estimates for how much they'll lose if they paid 3BTC/share? I'm pretty sure it's 100% going to be some sort of loss at this point, right?

It's a little difficult to answer, considering the MPP and its (possible) effect on the calculations, but even with that we're looking at a likely loss. Without the MPP, and unless BTC goes to over $1200 (which it might, granted), we're looking at a loss of about $100. But if you look at it in BTC, we're looking at a loss of 2.75 BTC (which means you'd have about $2200 more if you hadn't spent the BTC/got the BTC back).

So... yeah. At this point I'm clearly hoping for a refund.

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[qukkM]

Any refund will be at the $ price, so a $6k miner would be a refund of about 7.5 btc,  or about 0.375btc per share for this GB. Would be a good scam, take btc, wait for value to rise, don't deliver product, refund a fraction of the bitcoins. Not saying this was a scam just saying that it doesn't harm Hash Fast whatever the outcome.

[beavertank]

Any refund will be at the $ price, so a $6k miner would be a refund of about 7.5 btc,  or about 0.375btc per share for this GB. Would be a good scam, take btc, wait for value to rise, don't deliver product, refund a fraction of the bitcoins. Not saying this was a scam just saying that it doesn't harm Hash Fast whatever the outcome.

Except that's not actually a refund. If we paid $6k in USD then yes, that would be a refund. But we paid in bitcoin. A refund is returning to the buyer what they paid, which here is far more than 7.5 btc. I also seem to remember hashfast confirming that refunds would be in the amount and currency of the original payment, although I can't find that at the moment.

[rustianto]

Any refund will be at the $ price, so a $6k miner would be a refund of about 7.5 btc,  or about 0.375btc per share for this GB. Would be a good scam, take btc, wait for value to rise, don't deliver product, refund a fraction of the bitcoins. Not saying this was a scam just saying that it doesn't harm Hash Fast whatever the outcome.

Except that's not actually a refund. If we paid $6k in USD then yes, that would be a refund. But we paid in bitcoin. A refund is returning to the buyer what they paid, which here is far more than 7.5 btc. I also seem to remember hashfast confirming that refunds would be in the amount and currency of the original payment, although I can't find that at the moment.

I found it in Hashfast website on MPP program:
---------------------------------------------
If I didn’t pay in Bitcoin, how do you calculate the purchase price under the MPP and compare it to the amount Bitcoin generated?

If you paid in USD or other fiat currency, HashFast will base the calculations on the BTC to USD (or other currency) exchange rate we gave our customers the day of your purchase.

[thomas_s]

Any refund will be at the $ price, so a $6k miner would be a refund of about 7.5 btc,  or about 0.375btc per share for this GB. Would be a good scam, take btc, wait for value to rise, don't deliver product, refund a fraction of the bitcoins. Not saying this was a scam just saying that it doesn't harm Hash Fast whatever the outcome.

Except that's not actually a refund. If we paid $6k in USD then yes, that would be a refund. But we paid in bitcoin. A refund is returning to the buyer what they paid, which here is far more than 7.5 btc. I also seem to remember hashfast confirming that refunds would be in the amount and currency of the original payment, although I can't find that at the moment.

According to a Texas court BTC is a currency and if you pay in one currency that is how you should get refunded.

[itod]

Updated today: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262052.msg3715623#msg3715623

New Section added for refunds:
Section 3

(i)       ALL SALES ARE FINAL.  NO ORDER OR ANY PART THEREOF MAY BE RESCHEDULED OR CANCELLED WITHOUT HASHFAST’ PRIOR WRITTEN CONSENT EXCEPT FOR CANCELLATIONS PERMITTED UNDER THIS SECTION 3.

(j)       REFUNDS.  Any refunds due to Buyer will be made in United States Dollars, and for the purposes of calculating refunds, amounts paid in Bitcoin or other virtual currencies will be deemed paid in United States Dollars at the exchange rate given by Hashfast to its customers on the order date.  Refunds for partial order cancelations or returns will be adjusted for any discounts previously given to Buyer for volume purchases.

TLDR; Now it's not in our interest to apply for a refund. We have to wait for the machines no matter how long it takes.

[Rea]

All i have to say is i hope they just did not fuck us over if we are going to get a refund.

[qukkM]

Anyone care to clarify the bold bit for me. I paid in BTC so are they saying refunds will be at the usd/btc rate on the date I paid. So essentially I get myself full btc payment back.

[itod]

Anyone care to clarify the bold bit for me. I paid in BTC so are they saying refunds will be at the usd/btc rate on the date I paid. So essentially I get myself full btc payment back.

How did you conclude that? If you would get your BTC back why would USD/BTC rate ever be mentioned? It's stated: All payments in BTC are converted to US$ at the US$/BTC conversion rate at the day of the purchase. IANAL, but people in the main HF thread claim they've also inserted a clause in the trade agreement stating that they can update that agreement post festum. This is all legally very shady, but it's obvious that HF is going the road we were suspicious they would: All refunds they are willing to fulfill, without the court involved, will be in the US$ value at the date of the purchase. They will gladly convert them back to BTC if you insist on BTC refund, but guess which rate they will use now.

Problem is there is absolutely nothing we or Waldo can do about it at this moment. They claim there will be no refunds if they ship in 2013, so we have to wait and see if it will happen, no matter how harmful it is to our interests.

[beavertank]

Anyone care to clarify the bold bit for me. I paid in BTC so are they saying refunds will be at the usd/btc rate on the date I paid. So essentially I get myself full btc payment back.

No, the bolded language is trying to say that the refund amount was set in USD on the day you paid, so you'll get that amount of USD back (i.e. what itod's summary said).

However, that section was added to the purchase agreement long after we placed our order, so it doesn't (and can't) apply to us. It's pretty simple contract law stuff.

Now, for motivation behind it, that's harder to work out... it could be that they're concerned they'll have to issue refunds and are trying to limit their possible liability (but know nothing about contracts). Or it could be that they're looking at the massive rise in BTC exchange rate and are concerned that will continue and may become a problem for future orders (the only orders to which those terms apply).

In any event, that newly added section can not apply to us because one party can't unilaterally alter an existing contract's terms.

[floatyfish]

Anyone care to clarify the bold bit for me. I paid in BTC so are they saying refunds will be at the usd/btc rate on the date I paid. So essentially I get myself full btc payment back.

No, the bolded language is trying to say that the refund amount was set in USD on the day you paid, so you'll get that amount of USD back (i.e. what itod's summary said).

However, that section was added to the purchase agreement long after we placed our order, so it doesn't (and can't) apply to us. It's pretty simple contract law stuff.

Now, for motivation behind it, that's harder to work out... it could be that they're concerned they'll have to issue refunds and are trying to limit their possible liability (but know nothing about contracts). Or it could be that they're looking at the massive rise in BTC exchange rate and are concerned that will continue and may become a problem for future orders (the only orders to which those terms apply).

In any event, that newly added section can not apply to us because one party can't unilaterally alter an existing contract's terms.

Agreed. If they did try to hold us to it we could definitely take them to court over it (and probably win too). All that's left IMO is the waiting game.

[beavertank]

Anyone care to clarify the bold bit for me. I paid in BTC so are they saying refunds will be at the usd/btc rate on the date I paid. So essentially I get myself full btc payment back.

No, the bolded language is trying to say that the refund amount was set in USD on the day you paid, so you'll get that amount of USD back (i.e. what itod's summary said).

However, that section was added to the purchase agreement long after we placed our order, so it doesn't (and can't) apply to us. It's pretty simple contract law stuff.

Now, for motivation behind it, that's harder to work out... it could be that they're concerned they'll have to issue refunds and are trying to limit their possible liability (but know nothing about contracts). Or it could be that they're looking at the massive rise in BTC exchange rate and are concerned that will continue and may become a problem for future orders (the only orders to which those terms apply).

In any event, that newly added section can not apply to us because one party can't unilaterally alter an existing contract's terms.

Agreed. If they did try to hold us to it we could definitely take them to court over it (and probably win too). All that's left IMO is the waiting game.

There's no probably about it. That case would be over by the first motion for summary judgement, and it would go in favor of the customer.

[forevernoob]

What happens if HashFast actually do deliver around 31st December.
Will the miners not give positive ROI?

[itod]

What happens if HashFast actually do deliver around 31st December.
Will the miners not give positive ROI?

Unfortunately very probably no, even with MPP. Unless difficulty stops to increase in the rates we are seeing now, witch is very unlikely, but possible if Cointerra and most of other manufacturers fail to deliver.

[kukuku]

My bet is that we get the units the week of Dec 31st, after finding out they've been diligently performing extensive "burn-in testing." 

[beavertank]

What happens if HashFast actually do deliver around 31st December.
Will the miners not give positive ROI?

No. Likely not. They'll never ROI in BTC, and they'll only break even in fiat if bitcoin goes to over $1200/BTC.

[bob marley]

hi

Is it true that batch #1 customers get their refunds in BTC. I have 4 shares in

[Rea]

Where is this company located? Are they located in Northern California? If so and say we don't get our refund back in full btc we paid I have a close relative in nor cal who's a pretty big attorney that could help us with the refund in this group buy.

If it was me I would've already consulted him about writing them a letter to just give us back our btc now since most of the shit in their TOS seems ambiguous as referred from this post someone made in the HF thread.
http://www.justanswer.com/consumer-protection-law/82mir-made-pre-order-online-product-august-9-2013.html

This is all but a suggestion but what do you guys think? I certainly dont want to lose my 16.5 btc. I can contact him regarding this but I'll leave this up to waldo though since hes running this.

[forevernoob]

But if they do deliver we're fucked anyways right?
There is just no way we're gonna ROI.

Hate to be so negative here, but some of these people screaming for refunds/legal action might have a point.

[madmax_ger]

But if they do deliver we're fucked anyways right?
There is just no way we're gonna ROI.

Hate to be so negative here, but some of these people screaming for refunds/legal action might have a point.

ROI in BTC may not be there but for people who want their USD ROI, we should hit that in a month or two.

Point or not- there's nothing that I or you or anyone can do.. other than HF. No reason to get mad over ish that's out of our control, unfortunately.

yes, you're right: http://btcinvest.net/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=707408283.0515&dcosts=260&diff_mincrease=30&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=20000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=945.64&dpowcon=30&btcusd_mincrease=1&pcost=0.25&calcweeks=32&dleadtime=0&action=calc

(round about, power consumption not set accurately, diff jumps do vary from these numbers, lead time not calculated)

I hope they will deliver soon.