all finished

[itod]

I dont think they do it till 31.12. . The question is, will we get the full amount paid in btc or dollar or nothing at all

Only insanely optimistic think we will get our full BTC back. According to recent calculations in main ScamFast thread, if it comes to refunds we will get about 1/5 invested BTC back. So I would not hope for them to fail yet, I think that with MPP we would get more than that, haven't done actual calculations but at least double that amount, maybe even 1/2 of what we've sent to Waldo. So it is still better for us they deliver than refunds.

[1714897991]

1714897991

[beavertank]

I dont think they do it till 31.12. . The question is, will we get the full amount paid in btc or dollar or nothing at all

They have changed their terms of sale to say refunds for orders paid in BTC are given in USD set at the USD/BTC conversion rate on the date of order. However, they changed that term after we made our purchase, so if we are eligible for a refund we're entitled to the full amount of BTC paid.

...it may come to legal action to get that, if they want to be difficult about it, but it's enough money to justify it. If it comes to that.

[manawenuz]

I'm not even being optimist about getting our USD investment back from them .
as long as they are LLC, they can file for bankruptcy and there is little we can do afterwards !! , the amount they are forced to pay by law is the value of the company which i assume doesn't cover the huge debt they are in !!

[id10tothe9]

Is the rule that they have to be shipped out by Dec 31st or you have to receive them by Dec 31st.

From HashFast's Terms-Of-Sale: "All of the 550 Baby Jet units from Hashfast’s first production batch are guaranteed for delivery by December 31, 2013.  If Buyer ordered one or more units of such Baby Jets, and Hashfast does not deliver such units by that date, then Buyer may cancel the undelivered portion of the order at Buyer’s request and Hashfast will provide a refund for the units that Buyer purchased but did not receive and cancelled." - https://hashfast.com/checkout/terms-of-sale/

tl;dr - A refund is available for anything from the first production batch not delivered by Dec. 31, 2013.

WH, a cautious thought here, maybe we better send the cancellation right away if the units are not delivered by 31st, just in case they arrive like a day or two later and then HF would say you can't cancel after delivery.

[piecinitup]

The suspense is killing me   

A full BTC refund would be the best Xmas present ever!  Although I do not have my hopes up.

[itod]

I've already made the refund request.  

To tell you the truth I'm not happy you did that without consulting us. A quote from OP:

In case of non-delivery:

I (waldohoover) take no responsibility for the possibility that HashFast does not deliver. I (waldohoover) have done what I consider a thorough due diligence but as we all know, you can never 100% guarantee anything when it comes to pre-orders.
Refunds will be given in case of non-delivery less 3% for management of the Group Buy.
This group buy will be refunded if the miners are not delivered- share holders can elect to wait further.

That would not be my preferred option about what should we do. You took big responsibility on your shoulders with that decision, I don't want to be rude but I'm holding you responsible for the outcome since I'm convinced we will get only 1/5 of payed BTC back. What will you tell me if that happens to be the outcome - "Sorry, itod, I was wrong"? Who will pay for lawyers to get the rest of the BTC back?

We absolutely shouldn't have asked for the refund before we have written or oral (recorded) confirmation from HF how much BTC will be refunded. I've stated that in at lest two posts in this thread, and every time you've selected to ignore that request to get that information. I still can't comprehend why you, Waldo, as a > 100.000US$ HF customer haven't insisted to discuss the refund amount from some high HF official. No offense, but I think it's careless behavior with possible ugly outcome for all of us. If I'm wrong about all these I'll be first to apologize to you.

[Choadmeyer]

We absolutely shouldn't have asked for the refund before we have written or oral (recorded) confirmation from HF how much BTC will be refunded.

+1

[beavertank]

I've already made the refund request.  

Did you mention that you expect a full return of the BTC amount paid?

We absolutely shouldn't have asked for the refund before we have written or oral (recorded) confirmation from HF how much BTC will be refunded.

If they're going to try getting out of a full BTC refund, they wouldn't give you that. If they said it anyway, and then didn't deliver, that written or recorded promise doesn't put you in as good a legal position as you seem to assume it would.

[g83]

If they dont refund the full amount in btc we take what they pay and then involve a lawyer to get the rest because the tos were changed after we paid, this can not be done like this. They can not hold our btc as a cheap credit and then pay out just a few dollars. If the price would be lower than it was when we paid, i bet they would offer only a refund in btc. Thats just another scam and they still do not have shown a single working asic.

[stex2009]

If they dont refund the full amount in btc we take what they pay and then involve a lawyer to get the rest because the tos were changed after we paid, this can not be done like this. They can not hold our btc as a cheap credit and then pay out just a few dollars. If the price would be lower than it was when we paid, i bet they would offer only a refund in btc. Thats just another scam and they still do not have shown a single working asic.

Considering the BTC rate now we all can afford a pooled lawyer if our chances are good!

[piecinitup]

If they dont refund the full amount in btc we take what they pay and then involve a lawyer to get the rest because the tos were changed after we paid, this can not be done like this. They can not hold our btc as a cheap credit and then pay out just a few dollars. If the price would be lower than it was when we paid, i bet they would offer only a refund in btc. Thats just another scam and they still do not have shown a single working asic.

If they're like any other ASIC company they should have plenty of BTC to refund from the mining they've done with all of OUR machines.

[id10tothe9]

Is the rule that they have to be shipped out by Dec 31st or you have to receive them by Dec 31st.

From HashFast's Terms-Of-Sale: "All of the 550 Baby Jet units from Hashfast’s first production batch are guaranteed for delivery by December 31, 2013.  If Buyer ordered one or more units of such Baby Jets, and Hashfast does not deliver such units by that date, then Buyer may cancel the undelivered portion of the order at Buyer’s request and Hashfast will provide a refund for the units that Buyer purchased but did not receive and cancelled." - https://hashfast.com/checkout/terms-of-sale/

tl;dr - A refund is available for anything from the first production batch not delivered by Dec. 31, 2013.

WH, a cautious thought here, maybe we better send the cancellation right away if the units are not delivered by 31st, just in case they arrive like a day or two later and then HF would say you can't cancel after delivery.

I've already made the refund request.  

ah! forgot you're awesome  hehe

[g83]

I understand the concept behind those preordercompanys - take a lot of btc, wait for a year and then pay back dollars to gain profit. if btc price does not explode in between then simply send back btc. its exactly that simple, free credit and huge profit

[likehiro]

Is the rule that they have to be shipped out by Dec 31st or you have to receive them by Dec 31st.

From HashFast's Terms-Of-Sale: "All of the 550 Baby Jet units from Hashfast’s first production batch are guaranteed for delivery by December 31, 2013.  If Buyer ordered one or more units of such Baby Jets, and Hashfast does not deliver such units by that date, then Buyer may cancel the undelivered portion of the order at Buyer’s request and Hashfast will provide a refund for the units that Buyer purchased but did not receive and cancelled." - https://hashfast.com/checkout/terms-of-sale/

tl;dr - A refund is available for anything from the first production batch not delivered by Dec. 31, 2013.

WH, a cautious thought here, maybe we better send the cancellation right away if the units are not delivered by 31st, just in case they arrive like a day or two later and then HF would say you can't cancel after delivery.

I've already made the refund request.  

They had updated yesterday https://hashfast.com/hashfast-customer-update/

You should ask us by mail or PM our personal decision for it, I think.

[stex2009]

You all need to calm down.

I made a request for a refund- I did not confirm or even speak with them yet. I made the request to get the ball moving so there would not be a delay in a refund IF we decide on it.

Now carry on- I've got this under control. 

Thanks waldo!

[tekke]

You all need to calm down.

I made a request for a refund- I did not confirm or even speak with them yet. I made the request to get the ball moving so there would not be a delay in a refund IF we decide on it.

Now carry on- I've got this under control. 

Perfect , thanks for keeping us in the loop

[floatyfish]

As orders were priced in USD, refunds will be issued in the equivalent amount of USD. If a refund is to be paid in BTC, the USD to BTC market exchange rate on the date of refund will be used to calculate the amount of BTC to be refunded.

Pardon the language, but that's a bunch of shit. Can someone run the calculations and see if it would be worth it to get our BTC back vs mining and then selling the machine somewhere down the line.

Also Waldo, if we do choose to do a refund, what happens to those who bought the hash rate doubler (the proper name escapes me at the moment)? Do we get a full refund of what we paid in BTC, or will that also come back to us in the form of the current USD to BTC exchange rate?

[itod]

As orders were priced in USD, refunds will be issued in the equivalent amount of USD. If a refund is to be paid in BTC, the USD to BTC market exchange rate on the date of refund will be used to calculate the amount of BTC to be refunded.

Pardon the language, but that's a bunch of shit. Can someone run the calculations and see if it would be worth it to get our BTC back vs mining and then selling the machine somewhere down the line.

Also Waldo, if we do choose to do a refund, what happens to those who bought the hash rate doubler (the proper name escapes me at the moment)? Do we get a full refund of what we paid in BTC, or will that also come back to us in the form of the current USD to BTC exchange rate?

There are only invoices for miners #1-#5 in the opening post (I'm miner #7). We need facts for each miner to calculate exact BTC amounts potentially refunded: order date, US$ amount, BTC amount paid. I believe HF used MtGox exchange rate, but I'm not sure. If it is MtGox, it's not hard to get exchange rates on these 7 specific dates.

Somebody has done basic calculation in main HF thread, roughly 1/5 BTC would be refunded. It's a suicide to ask for a refund, we would get more than that amount through mining.

It's no use for me to claim I was right, but I was convinced this will end this way. Thank god refunds was not asked from HF or we would be done now, this way we have a chance to get between 2/5 to 3/5 of the money invested. It depends of the date MPP will be sent to us. If the MPP is sent at the beginning of february we can get around 3/5 max, if they are sent significantly later we ere doomed, specially if Cointerra delivers on time.

[itod]

Even though the email that went out today says partial refund, that will NOT be the case.

What do you mean by "that will NOT be the case"? What will be the case? That email looks crystal clear to me, either we follow the refund process described in the email (which is insane thing to do, and I demand a vote before you do that) or miners will be shipped soon. I don't see any ambiguity in that.

[thomas_s]

Even though the email that went out today says partial refund, that will NOT be the case.

What do you mean by "that will NOT be the case"? What will be the case? That email looks crystal clear to me, either we follow the refund process described in the email (which is insane thing to do, and I demand a vote before you do that) or miners will be shipped soon. I don't see any ambiguity in that.

That's if you believe they will start shipping soon.