bustabit – The original crash game

[GamblingSiteFinder]

months of investing profit rekt by PredictableLegacy

increasing betting limits and so increasing volatility like this isn't a good thing for people like me who wanted a half stable interesting place to put some of their btc. maybe you dont have much sympathy for investors but i have been recommending this site for a long time and I feel a bit sore. max bet doesn't need to be more than a few BTC as we are working with only 0.5% house edge, whales can easily come in like this and ruin it for us. I don't want to be the counterparty for huge bets, i would rather be in a pool against many smaller ones.

Looking at my Bustabit bankroll investment certainly hurts right now, but let's be honest, if PredictableLegacy lost another ~550 BTC today, this would not be an issue. In fact, you'd probably be refreshing the page every two minutes jumping for joy. We all knew the risks when we joined the bankroll, I say bring on the variance!

But in the meantime, congrats PredictableLegacy on the massive win!

[DarkStar_]

months of investing profit rekt by PredictableLegacy

increasing betting limits and so increasing volatility like this isn't a good thing for people like me who wanted a half stable interesting place to put some of their btc. maybe you dont have much sympathy for investors but i have been recommending this site for a long time and I feel a bit sore. max bet doesn't need to be more than a few BTC as we are working with only 0.5% house edge, whales can easily come in like this and ruin it for us. I don't want to be the counterparty for huge bets, i would rather be in a pool against many smaller ones.

He did build up a lot of the investing profit though, he's still in a 600 BTC hole. Your best bet for very low volatility casino investments is probably Crypto-Games.net; there's a 0.5% max profit and low volume so you can have much slower but more stable growth.

[darewaller]

I don't understand how people can like the fact that they got 500+ btc in profits as a whole and then lost 100 and then suddenly decide volatility is bad. Its the same people who said bitcoin is a worthless useless made up thing when it went from 20k to 3k but never really seen them talk about how awesome it is then when it went to 20k to begin with.

Same logic, these people like to collect their profits, make a decent return but then the moment they start to lose money "the volatility bla bla bla", well I am sorry but when you are investing in a casino and a casino that has even profited you before, then you are taking the risk that sometimes people will win, it is gambling there are ups and downs, on the long run house will always win but there will be short bursts of wins like this.

[thereg1]

I don't understand how people can like the fact that they got 500+ btc in profits as a whole and then lost 100 and then suddenly decide volatility is bad. Its the same people who said bitcoin is a worthless useless made up thing when it went from 20k to 3k but never really seen them talk about how awesome it is then when it went to 20k to begin with.

Same logic, these people like to collect their profits, make a decent return but then the moment they start to lose money "the volatility bla bla bla", well I am sorry but when you are investing in a casino and a casino that has even profited you before, then you are taking the risk that sometimes people will win, it is gambling there are ups and downs, on the long run house will always win but there will be short bursts of wins like this.

I think if given the choice I would rather not be included in bets of say of over 5 btc. Smaller bets spread out the risk, I am not a gambler as such myself and I am relying on the house edge over many bets to slowly net a profit, I wouldn't 'all in' this btc on a bet I had slightly more than 50% chance of winning. I don't think I should be judged so harshly for not wanting my investment here to be so volatile. I have been happy with bustabit and I think daniel has done a great job, I just don't want to wake up rekt by whales if something similar happens again with the max bet so high. I have divested now, good luck with the site.

[dunfida]

I don't understand how people can like the fact that they got 500+ btc in profits as a whole and then lost 100 and then suddenly decide volatility is bad. Its the same people who said bitcoin is a worthless useless made up thing when it went from 20k to 3k but never really seen them talk about how awesome it is then when it went to 20k to begin with.

Same logic, these people like to collect their profits, make a decent return but then the moment they start to lose money "the volatility bla bla bla", well I am sorry but when you are investing in a casino and a casino that has even profited you before, then you are taking the risk that sometimes people will win, it is gambling there are ups and downs, on the long run house will always win but there will be short bursts of wins like this.

Get used to it.People doesnt really have that compliment when they are benefited but when the time comes that the situation turns up side down then
they do already starts to complain and saying up things negatively.House always wins but these big wins from players is inevitable which would mainly affect
investors side.So nothing surprises here!

[Timetwister]

I wish there were more whales, they make investing really profitable.

[JeromeTash]

I don't understand how people can like the fact that they got 500+ btc in profits as a whole and then lost 100 and then suddenly decide volatility is bad. Its the same people who said bitcoin is a worthless useless made up thing when it went from 20k to 3k but never really seen them talk about how awesome it is then when it went to 20k to begin with.

Same logic, these people like to collect their profits, make a decent return but then the moment they start to lose money "the volatility bla bla bla", well I am sorry but when you are investing in a casino and a casino that has even profited you before, then you are taking the risk that sometimes people will win, it is gambling there are ups and downs, on the long run house will always win but there will be short bursts of wins like this.

Those are people who don't understand the word "Risk" at all.
In the investment or Business world. Once you put out your money on something expecting some profit out it. It doesn't matter what kind of business it is, there is always a risk involved.

Naive People always want to focus on profits forgetting that losses can also happen at certain points.

[virasog]

I don't understand how people can like the fact that they got 500+ btc in profits as a whole and then lost 100 and then suddenly decide volatility is bad. Its the same people who said bitcoin is a worthless useless made up thing when it went from 20k to 3k but never really seen them talk about how awesome it is then when it went to 20k to begin with.

Same logic, these people like to collect their profits, make a decent return but then the moment they start to lose money "the volatility bla bla bla", well I am sorry but when you are investing in a casino and a casino that has even profited you before, then you are taking the risk that sometimes people will win, it is gambling there are ups and downs, on the long run house will always win but there will be short bursts of wins like this.

Those are people who don't understand the word "Risk" at all.
In the investment or Business world. Once you put out your money on something expecting some profit out it. It doesn't matter what kind of business it is, there is always a risk involved.

Naive People always want to focus on profits forgetting that losses can also happen at certain points.

All business involve the risk but the crash games are more risker than ever. Anyone who comes to play the crash games should understand that it can make him big loss too.  However incipite of all the risk, I like to play bustabit  crash games as it has a lot of fun playing the game.
Finally its our money and we can spent/risk in what ever way we want.

[redsun114]

All business involve the risk but the crash games are more risker than ever. Anyone who comes to play the crash games should understand that it can make him big loss too.  However incipite of all the risk, I like to play bustabit  crash games as it has a lot of fun playing the game.
Finally its our money and we can spent/risk in what ever way we want.

Yeah and considering there is a house edge in this game it means you will profit no matter what, there is absolutely no way you will lose money investing into this casino, sure you can lose if you get in and someone wins big and you get out, but as long as you stay as long as required you will always make money for sure.

That is the trick, you have to wait and if you wait enough eventually you will make money however some people get too afraid and leave too early and they may end up with some loss but the logic here is to have house edge on your favor (which we do) and wait, sure there could be times when profit goes down but in general there is literally no technical way that we don't make a profit, maybe there will be a huge loss one day but wait it out and you will be in profit for sure.

[malevolent]

Yeah and considering there is a house edge in this game it means you will profit no matter what, there is absolutely no way you will lose money investing into this casino, sure you can lose if you get in and someone wins big and you get out, but as long as you stay as long as required you will always make money for sure.

That is the trick, you have to wait and if you wait enough eventually you will make money however some people get too afraid and leave too early and they may end up with some loss but the logic here is to have house edge on your favor (which we do) and wait, sure there could be times when profit goes down but in general there is literally no technical way that we don't make a profit, maybe there will be a huge loss one day but wait it out and you will be in profit for sure.

It's not guaranteed, a very rich gambler with a lucky streak can still wipe out the bankroll, even if it's unlikely at current max profit per bet to bankroll ratios. Or it may take very long time for the investors to recover their losses if for some reason the site loses popularity after a whale leaves with a lot of bitcoins. People who have offsite bankroll should be especially careful; 400 BTC left the offsite bankroll yesteday or so.
But as things stand, PredictableLegacy just lost 200 BTC.

[Battareus]

It seems to me that would be honest to gambling people to limit the maximum bet to 100,000 bits, if someone loses large sums it could ruin his life, I don’t think that the person can recover after a huge loss which is more than his wage which he can get for the whole life.

[malevolent]

It seems to me that would be honest to gambling people to limit the maximum bet to 100,000 bits, if someone loses large sums it could ruin his life, I don’t think that the person can recover after a huge loss which is more than his wage which he can get for the whole life.

Someone could have enough coins left over from older days that betting tens of bitcoins at a given time is not an issue for them, if they feel like betting good for them and for bustabit's investors.

And they could still lose a lot of money with a series of smaller bets — as many do.
https://www.bustabit.com/faq/gambling-addiction

[BayAreaCoins]

So the only thing I can see that I think is strictly beneficial is trying to make sure that casinos are consumer-friendly casinos as possible (i.e. fair, transparent, no manipulative/lockin bullshit like roll-over reqs etc.)

I think you are misleading investors that investing is Provably Fair is a bit manipulative.

These games are only Provably Fair proveable fair to players, these investing sites are currently not Provably Fair to investors. (besides maybe PF to you and devan, but it is definitely not PF to me if I invest.)

Investing is not Provably Fair by math.  Period.  Please consider changing this.

Because investing isn't provably fair

[suchmoon]

I think you are misleading investors that investing is Provably Fair is a bit manipulative.

These games are only Provably Fair proveable fair to players, these investing sites are currently not Provably Fair to investors. (besides maybe PF to you and devan, but it is definitely not PF to me if I invest.)

Investing is not Provably Fair by math.  Period.  Please consider changing this.

How is it misleading if it says right there in that Google snippet: "Assuming you trust the two [bustadice and auditor] not to collude".

[Tipstar]

I think you are misleading investors that investing is Provably Fair is a bit manipulative.

These games are only Provably Fair proveable fair to players, these investing sites are currently not Provably Fair to investors. (besides maybe PF to you and devan, but it is definitely not PF to me if I invest.)

Investing is not Provably Fair by math.  Period.  Please consider changing this.

How is it misleading if it says right there in that Google snippet: "Assuming you trust the two [bustadice and auditor] not to collude".

Investors need to trust the owner. If you don't trust, you should not invest. Bustabit is an old gambling site and it's stats speaks of itself.
With the new rule of site getting commission only from the profit of investors, it would be a much better platform for users as well as investors.
The removal of dilution fee may change some earning statistics for long term users.

[BayAreaCoins]

How is it misleading if it says right there in that Google snippet: "Assuming you trust the two [bustadice and auditor] not to collude".

Do you understand what provably fair means?  It means you do not have to trust individuals & you can self verify cheats.  It isn't "provable" if it relies on individuals. It's probably-fair (maybe).

Here are several quotes from RHavar:

So personally I am reasonably convinced the game seeding was done fairly, but I'm not sure it's done well enough to say it's provably fair (maybe "probably fair" is more appropriate?)

That system is known as "provably fair" and contains absolutely everything you need to prove the game is fair. While i do admit it requires quite a bit of technical knowledge, it has the advantage that anyone can verify the game for everyone. So if you can find someone who understands how the maths primitives work, it should be easy to verify =)

You're kind of mixing up terminology here, but you're also on the wrong track. Provably fair means you can prove the game was fair. End of story. If you can't do that, then it's not provably fair.

In the sense that a normal bitcoin casino offers "provably fair" which means "it can cheat you, but you can detect if they do"  

So my strong advice for players would be to use a system they can verify themselves (i.e. provably fair)

Here is a quote from the Bustadice thread from Ryan tonight:

which states the caveat pretty explicitly. Although I actually agree with you in that provably-fair is the wrong term for it. I'd probably write the copy as "Assuming you trust the two not to collude, investors are given additional protections against cheating" or something of that sort

[BayAreaCoins]

@BayAreaCoins I think you're just confusing people

I think you're (or whoever) confusing people by grossly misusing the word "provably fair".

talking about bustadice in the bustabit thread.

I believe I have seen you make the claim that both sites are "provably fair" for investors IF you trust you "two".  

You're misusing the word and giving investors a false sense of security by doing so.  Stop.

This isn't the first time you and I have spoken about this. (99% sure we spoke about it in this thread in fact)

The investor guarantees and claims there are different than the ones here.

Are they?  How so?  Are you saying that either game is actually provably fair for investors?  

You're making guarantees to investors now?  

For the sake of everyone's sanity, it's best to discuss bustadice in the bustadice thread, and bustabit in this thread.

I think investors are traditionally pretty smart folks.  I'm sure they will manage.

[BayAreaCoins]

I've seen you make the claim that both sites are "provably fair" for investors IF you trust you "two".  

You're misusing the word and giving investors a false sense of security by doing so.  Stop.

lol, easy on the trigger there. I'll give you a bitcoin if you can remotely substantiate that. I've never said, or implied such a thing. I just checked the bustabit webpage and FAQ, and there's no claims like that either. Not to mention, bustabit doesn't even have an auditor system like bustadice does.

quoted, give me a minute

Edit #1:  You didn't type this?  

"Assuming you trust the two not to collude, investing becomes provably fair."

Edit #2:  I'm going to find the forum post as well.  Give me a few more minutes.  I have like 370 pages of past posts.

Edit #4:  You for sure typed this!  Thanks for that Bitcoin!  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2219681.msg50191132#msg50191132 I should have posted this one before #3.  (I went ahead and moved this one above #3)

Edit #3:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2219681.msg50260031#msg50260031

Edit #5" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2897545.msg45335901#msg45335901

Edit #6: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2219681.msg22396650#msg22396650
#6 Quoted:

• Advanced provably fair system designed to protect not only the players, but also investors

...
Similar to how JustDice pioneered provably fair dice games, we hope that bustadice will considerably improve the situation for investors and set the standard for casino investing.

Enhanced provable fairness
bustadice builds upon conventional provably fair systems to provide additional guarantees to players, investors and the casino itself:
...
For investors: Neither I nor Ryan can undetectably cheat by predicting future rolls. Assuming you trust the two not to collude, investing becomes provably fair.

Edit #7:  https://i.imgur.com/P4STV89.png (picture from the homepage of Bustadice)

I'll give you a bitcoin if you can remotely substantiate that. I've never said, or implied such a thing.

I believe I have "remotely" shown that you have claimed that BustaDice and/or BustaBit is provably-fair for investors when it is in fact not (see "Edit #4).

I could have sworn that you said in a thread after this one that you'd offer .1 BTC if I could show a link with Daniel stating investing was provably-fair... I don't see it anymore, however, Edit #6 & #7 shows that.

It seems like you owe me BTC at this point.  My bitcoin address is: bc1qwupmf3gc6ql8thl3eqmkce6uuur4prj4schw55

[RHavar]

lol, easy on the trigger there. I'll give you a bitcoin if you can remotely substantiate that. I've never said, or implied such a thing. I just checked the bustabit webpage and FAQ, and there's no claims like that either. Not to mention, bustabit doesn't even have an auditor system like bustadice does.

quoted, give me a minute

Take your time. I promise I won't edit or delete any posts in the mean time  

Edit #1:  You didn't type this?  

"Assuming you trust the two not to collude, investing becomes provably fair."

No. I didn't write that. Besides, that's for bustadice. We're talking about bustabit here, remember?

Edit #3:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2219681.msg50260031#msg50260031

I 100% standby everything I wrote there. It's factually correct, and not misleading in the slightest. If you think that supports your arguments that I misrepresented both ("bustabit" and "bustadice") as being provably fair for investor, you should probably close your computer and come back tomorrow and reread over this stuff with a clear head.

[BayAreaCoins]

you should probably close your computer and come back tomorrow and reread over this stuff with a clear head.

You should just stop misusing the word "provably fair" and fix where y'alls website(s) claim it is provably fair for investors (bustabit or bustadice).

Maybe replace it to "probably fair" for investors?