YIFU IS AUCTIONNING?

[Loredo]

So, you would be interested in auction that may and in 5 mins or 20 mins, and nobody knows when? My hunch is that sellers would not like this, they love when bids jump high in the last seconds of the auction. Deny them that profit and they would not want to bring their goods to such an auction system.

Maybe.  It could be the typical outcome would be the same; there are often flurries in end bidding in live auctions as well, particularly in items where there is no well-defined value (artwork, animals, bitcoin miners).  

ProfMac might know of this man:  an economist named Vernon Smith, who won a Nobel prize for his work in experimental economics.  Smith would conduct experiments, replicating markets, with students and others, with incentives of real money gains, and obtained insights into those areas of econ where theory could not tread: those areas where "there were people in them."  

Someone of Smith's school of thought would try auctions of both forms, and see if there really was a consistent expected difference.

[1714853435]

1714853435

[1714853435]

1714853435

[goxed]

Auction OVER!

Tradehill lagged at the end.  Almost was unable to re-bid.  But got a few for cheap!

i bid 2.2btc per unit and lost by .01 btc.    the site lagged out.  if anyone wants to sell me one to five for cheap i'd be happy.  just pm me or post.

they are holding 22 of my btc still too.

The input output delay at tradehill is huge. Deposited funds do not show up instantly. Lets see how long they take to release the held funds.

[Tehfiend]

1.  I saw disagreements in many auctions over the exact ending time.  The use of block inclusion does not reduce the uncertainty of when to bid, but it does make after the fact auditing completely transparent.
I also had an extension mechanism, when a valid bid transaction was confirmed, the auction was auto-extended 10 more blocks past that block.  I think any software would want to let this be an auctioneer decided option.

IMO that sound perfect!

[Tehfiend]

Also, in many auctions there is no "end time". The auction continues until nobody is willing to beat the highest bid (aka "going once going twice SOLD!!!"). Perhaps another option would be to end the auction after X blocks have passed since the last highest bid?

This is a nice idea. For instance: Auction lasts as long there are blocks with higher bids than the previous high. This may also solve "bids to close to the wire to be included" problem. In your opinion, should the system show the bids from the current (Edit: unsolved) block or publish them after the block is found?

I would say only bids included in solved blocks to avoid shenanigans.

[itod]

I did not try to snipe.  I was consistently ahead of several hundred bidders and my bid seemed safe.  I monitored the auction on an ongoing basis.  Their site failed to respond with several minutes remaining.  I did not find a mechanism to increase my bid, only to cancel and re-open.  

I was not able to express my intent to bid on their auction site.  I am sure that this was true of others as well.  Not only that, the site does not show the bidding results anymore, they were taken down when the auction was over.  I think that an essential aspect of an auction is transparency, and the final results are not transparent.

I think there is a wide open field for anyone else to compete at auctioneering.

And Furthermore ...

Some of you may remember that I held an auction on the blockchain.  It was a multi winner auction, and it ended at a certain block number.  All bids included in or before that block were valid.  I have had an interest in auctions for a very long time.  It was trivial to increase a bid.  It was less trivial to see standings during the auction, but that is an opportunity for someone to develop software to interpret a known auction address on the blockchain.

What is missing from my auction, and from this auction, is a mechanism similar to eBay where a maximum bid can be entered and the little bump bids are made automatically.  That is also a feature that an auction companion could implement on the individual bitcoiner's machine.


In contrast to this auction, my auction results are still visible, as the bids and refunds are in the blockchain.  The entirety of "approvals" to move payments within the TradeHill system seems to be a pointless labor cost to me.  I need help to see the motivation or utility of it.

I have also considered developing such a service, had a very similar idea like yours, but there are two problems I don't know how to solve:

1) block finding times can oscillate for serious amount of minutes, so there can not be fixed ending time of auction, feature people like and may be essential for successful auction

2) some bids may fail to be included in the current block because:
a) it depends on which nodes broadcasted individual transaction (bid),
b) it is discretionary to the mining pool which finds the block if it will include any individual transaction or not, especially the ones close to the actual block finding time.

If you have any ideas how to solve these two issues I would very much like to hear them.

1.  I saw disagreements in many auctions over the exact ending time.  The use of block inclusion does not reduce the uncertainty of when to bid, but it does make after the fact auditing completely transparent.
I also had an extension mechanism, when a valid bid transaction was confirmed, the auction was auto-extended 10 more blocks past that block.  I think any software would want to let this be an auctioneer decided option.

2.  My instructions to bidders was to bid early, or pay a premium miner's fee.  Many of my rules are a philosophically antagonistic toward sniping.  In the event that many people bid at the last minute, the bid extension also helps mitigate any odd behavior from the miners.

I think that a good auction client would pay attention to any unconfirmed transactions paid to the auction's bid address.  This would give notice of bids that could be included in the blocks.  It should be possible for the auction client to pre-fill the auction amount to a winning value plus a safety amount, and the bidder could  either click "Bid" or edit the value.

Regarding the 10 more blocks extension I think that is bit too much. It's an hour and a half, nobody has that much time to waste bidding, IMHO even extending one block at a time my lead to too long auctions and bidders losing interest, but it sure may be configurable and left to auctioneer to decide.

I'm not so antagonistic towards sniping because it saves bidders much time and effort, and people tend to like it. You leave your maximum bid and system is responsible to apply it but not disclose it to others, and off you go just checking latter if you won or not. It's a feature actually IMHO.

Thanks everyone for the input. Sorry for this off-topic chat. I may just decided on project to work in my spare time next few months. If anyone else is interested in this please PM me and we can discuss things off this thread.

[Tehfiend]

Regarding the 10 more blocks extension I think that is bit too much. It's an hour and a half, nobody has that much time to waste bidding, IMHO even extending one block at a time my lead to too long auctions and bidders losing interest, but it sure may be configurable and left to auctioneer to decide.

Yeah that could be an option at the discretion of the seller. If I was selling a house I would want 144 blocks (24 hours).

I'm not so antagonistic towards sniping because it saves bidders much time and effort, and people tend to like it. You leave your maximum bid and system is responsible to apply it but not disclose it to others, and off you go just checking latter if you won or not. It's a feature actually IMHO.

Bidders love sniping because it allows them to win at lower prices which is not good for sellers. There could just be many options for the seller to choose from since every auction will have different needs depending on what's being sold.

[greaterninja]

my bid for 2.20 btc per unit now says it was successful...

Your order was successful
Thank you for your interest in this auction; the auction has now closed. The Clearing Price for this product was 2.21 Bitcoin. Bidders will be contacted within 24 hours, from the close, to be notified of their status. Products will be shipped within 72 hours of the close of the auction.
Your Current Bid
Bid Quantity   10
Price per Unit   2.200 BTC
BTC Held for Bid   22 BTC
BTC Remaining for Bidding   0 BTC

[Tehfiend]

my bid for 2.20 btc per unit now says it was successful...

Interesting because the winning bid was 2.2 when the auction ended and about 15 seconds after I saw it jump up to 2.21 which I found odd. I wonder if somebody got a bid in after the auction closed which they reversed.

[DebitMe]

I did not notice this was going on, lol, if anyone wants 1 less that they won in the auction I would pay 2.5 Btc for it, plus shipping and escrow services.

[greaterninja]

I did not notice this was going on, lol, if anyone wants 1 less that they won in the auction I would pay 2.5 Btc for it, plus shipping and escrow services.

they are only projected to make .8 to 1.0 btc profit before going negative.

[greaterninja]

my bid for 2.20 btc per unit now says it was successful...

Interesting because the winning bid was 2.2 when the auction ended and about 15 seconds after I saw it jump up to 2.21 which I found odd. I wonder if somebody got a bid in after the auction closed which they reversed.

I thought it was my web browser, but yeah for me it said 2.2 was winning bid and auction closed.
Then it said 2.21 and auction closed.   Which irritated the crap out of me at first.

[klondike_bar]

I did not notice this was going on, lol, if anyone wants 1 less that they won in the auction I would pay 2.5 Btc for it, plus shipping and escrow services.

I would give the same, especially if bought from a canadian resident

[FeedbackLoop]

Yeah that could be an option at the discretion of the seller. If I was selling a house I would want 144 blocks (24 hours).

Or 144 blocks with time minimum. Something like 32 block extension if 144+extension*(blocks per extension) blocks are hit before 24 hours have passed. A detail but you get the idea

Good luck to itod/profMac and/or whoever else gets into this. Would be nice to see.  

Sorry for the offtopic also.

[ProfMac]

Also, in many auctions there is no "end time". The auction continues until nobody is willing to beat the highest bid (aka "going once going twice SOLD!!!"). Perhaps another option would be to end the auction after X blocks have passed since the last highest bid?

This is a nice idea. For instance: Auction lasts as long there are blocks with higher bids than the previous high. This may also solve "bids to close to the wire to be included" problem. In your opinion, should the system show the bids from the current (Edit: unsolved) block or publish them after the block is found?

I would say only bids included in solved blocks to avoid shenanigans.

I do prefer shenanigan free auctions.

What sort of shenanigan can you envision if non-confirmed bids are presented in the dashboard?

[superduh]

I don't know what is going on.  First it said I was unsuccessful.

Now it says my orders were successful.  However, it says the clearing price is 2.21  but I only bid 2.12 (actually I bid 2.199 but they made it 2.12).  

I don't know what this is all means.

you got fucked by yifu. it's a normal thing

[greaterninja]

I don't know what is going on.  First it said I was unsuccessful.

Now it says my orders were successful.  However, it says the clearing price is 2.21  but I only bid 2.12 (actually I bid 2.199 but they made it 2.12).  

I don't know what this is all means.

mine for 2.2 says the same.

Can anyone else confirm they have received this.  Does anyone else have unsuccessful still?

[ProfMac]

Yeah that could be an option at the discretion of the seller. If I was selling a house I would want 144 blocks (24 hours).

Or 144 blocks with time minimum. Something like 32 block extension if 144+extension*(blocks per extension) blocks are hit before 24 hours have passed. A detail but you get the idea

Good luck to itod/profMac and/or whoever else gets into this. Would be nice to see.  

Sorry for the offtopic also.

While I think it is on topic, I have started another thread to support a needs analysis for blockchain auctions.

[goxed]

I don't know what is going on.  First it said I was unsuccessful.

Now it says my orders were successful.  However, it says the clearing price is 2.21  but I only bid 2.12 (actually I bid 2.199 but they made it 2.12).  

I don't know what this is all means.

mine for 2.2 says the same.

Can anyone else confirm they have received this.  Does anyone else have unsuccessful still?

Now they put the funds back into my account so I guess the "order" was successful (in other words, my bid) but I didn't meet the min bid so I lost the auction.  

Got my funds back as well. My max bid was 2.1BTC per unit. These were good room heaters though

[jermwerty]

Now a new problem, how to run 8600W of Avalons... thank goodness its winter!

Long, long time ago I used 6000W electric heater to successfully heat 3-room apartment in continental climate. Good luck with cooling all that equipment.

Easy, crack a window

It's not just what to do with all the heat, though, right?  The typical standard for US single family homes is 100 amp service, and less for apartments.  With those machines running 24/7, it should leave around 25 amps for all the rest of the appliances and environmental uses in the house.  

Yes that is true but I was only replying to his statement "Good luck with cooling all that equipment". Having the power to run them all is definitely the real problem

You guys are soo funny.  Sure a single 6KW heater would one big circuit, but these minis can be spread all over.  My house has 200A at 220V service (400A @ 110V) so no worries there.  Temps are 35F night 65F daytime average right now, and I heated last year with 14 GPUs spread over 4 rigs with no issues, but this will be over 2x that load!

8600W includes two 4-module Avalons that are in my laundry room today, and I ran two 20A 110V circuits in there to juice those bad boys.

I will just add a few circuits in the garage and keep the door open 4" or so all winter with some box fans going, and relocate units inside as heaters as it gets colder.

Now to break the news to the wife  

[itod]

Now to break the news to the wife  

Buy her a new earplugs for next anniversary!