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Author Topic: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread  (Read 1244368 times)
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June 19, 2015, 10:36:40 AM
 #11541

It's like comparing MSPaint to Photoshop, both are useful but the difference is unbelievable
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June 19, 2015, 02:01:28 PM
 #11542


Are that so much better platform than Counterparty and can that do everything what Counterparty/XCP -"altcoin" can do?


No, they can't do everything Counterparty can do. The Founders of Counterparty did not make XCP for fun, they made XCP because it's required for escrowing value since bitcoins cannot do this (with the very limited exception of multisig).

http://www.reddit.com/r/counterparty_xcp/comments/3aaptg/secure_multisig_address/

This multisig what doesn't working yet with Counterwallet web version? How it is with desktop version?

What kind of services Counterparty make possible what Bitcoin can't with Colu/sidechains? Some good, easy and big examples what non tech user can understand.
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June 19, 2015, 06:03:39 PM
 #11543


Are that so much better platform than Counterparty and can that do everything what Counterparty/XCP -"altcoin" can do?


No, they can't do everything Counterparty can do. The Founders of Counterparty did not make XCP for fun, they made XCP because it's required for escrowing value since bitcoins cannot do this (with the very limited exception of multisig).

http://www.reddit.com/r/counterparty_xcp/comments/3aaptg/secure_multisig_address/

This multisig what doesn't working yet with Counterwallet web version? How it is with desktop version?

What kind of services Counterparty make possible what Bitcoin can't with Colu/sidechains? Some good, easy and big examples what non tech user can understand.

Programmable money.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness

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June 21, 2015, 06:05:23 PM
 #11544

I feel like most important companies are now go under Colu/Open assets. Are that so much better platform than Counterparty and can that do everything what Counterparty/XCP -"altcoin" can do?

I believe the curse of systems like Counterparty is global consensus/state, and to some degree a balance, instead of output based approach.

It adds a lot of overhead and fragility.

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June 22, 2015, 05:47:06 AM
 #11545


Are that so much better platform than Counterparty and can that do everything what Counterparty/XCP -"altcoin" can do?


No, they can't do everything Counterparty can do. The Founders of Counterparty did not make XCP for fun, they made XCP because it's required for escrowing value since bitcoins cannot do this (with the very limited exception of multisig).

http://www.reddit.com/r/counterparty_xcp/comments/3aaptg/secure_multisig_address/

This multisig what doesn't working yet with Counterwallet web version? How it is with desktop version?

What kind of services Counterparty make possible what Bitcoin can't with Colu/sidechains? Some good, easy and big examples what non tech user can understand.
Decentralized Exchange

In an exchange, suppose you want to exchange asset A for asset B and find some one offer to sell 200 B with the price 1 A for 1 B. Then you click agree and he gets 200 A from you and you get 200 B from him. For this to happen, before the transaction, the 200 B needs to be escrowed by the system (i.e. the system has to make sure he has 200 B and temporarily freezes the 200 B). Currently, BTC (so does colored coin since they are just BTC) cannot be escrowed by the decentralized system, but XCP can. As a result, you can buy/sell assets instantly in a DEX with XCP but not with BTC.
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June 25, 2015, 02:52:56 AM
 #11546

My Cynical hat is on here, but for a while I had suspicions of some odd market behaviour prior to Overstocks "official" announcement that Overstock had abandoned the original special relationship with CounterParty. It seems that the market crash may have been Overstock cashing out.

http://www.coindesk.com/overstock-reports-over-100k-in-bitcoin-losses-for-q1-2015/

Quote
Speaking to CoinDesk, Overstock cryptocurrency group general manager Judd Bagley indicated that the loss was primarily the result of declines in certain altcoin markets in which the company has invested.

"The swing in the value of our cryptocurrency holdings is attributable to the sale of some of our non-bitcoin cryptocurrencies, the use of some of our bitcoin to pay for services including our membership in the Chamber of Digital Commerce, and changes in the market," he said.




Thoughts?
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June 25, 2015, 02:58:31 AM
 #11547

You're assuming they ever cashed in, which is probably a stretch.

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June 25, 2015, 03:04:12 AM
 #11548

You're assuming they ever cashed in, which is probably a stretch.

Not too much of a stretch!, even without personal preferences, If they were building a large scale project making use of CounterParty exclusively, and they were investing in altcoins (both of which are confirmed truths) I can't see how it's a huge logic jump to imagine one of those altcoins might be counterparty- purely from a business perspective. I doubt many could come up with a more reasonable alternative coin they may have invested in.  An internal move away from counterparty to a bitcoin-only market might correlate with sales of those 'non-bitcoin' altcoins judd bagley mentions.

Quote
Overstock listed its cryptocurrency holdings as valued at $233,000 on March 31st, down from $340,000 on 31st December.

IF they had purchased anytime after oct 2014 (Remember there was quite a large run up right after then- partially caused by the formal announcement of the Overstock/CounterParty announcement) , and sold anytime before march 31st when the report was issued (let's say february, right after the coindesk article announcing the partnership was over - and that they were pursuing other markets, was released)- the market data would also support a loss like they are reporting. In fact a block buy spike on october almost perfectly mirrors a block sell at that time.

procuring the balance sheet @ http://edgar.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1130713/000113071315000018/ostk-20150331x10q.htm

 shows  $300k investments in cryptocurrencies were made in the past 12 months but prior to the past 3 months of the filing (so before Dec 31st 2015, but after March 31st 2014), and that  the sales were at some time from Dec 31st to March 31st 2015 but not prior, supporting such a theory further.

Quote
Gains or losses resulting from changes in the value of our cryptocurrency assets are recorded in Other income (expense), net in our consolidated statements of income. Losses on cryptocurrency holdings were $117,000 and zero during the three months ended March 31, 2015 and 2014, respectively.
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June 25, 2015, 11:01:06 PM
 #11549

Not strictly related but signs the scene is heating up, the big boys are moving in on the space, Exactly as how things seem like they would play out for those viewing this blockchain evolution on a zoomed out timeframe. Being involved in such an obvious and drastic fintech evolution right now is IMO, the best position next to being involved in bitcoin in 2010-2011 so far. Although there's no guarantee counterparty might play a role in this future paradigm shift (it could stagnate like MSC if the community let's it in the face of well funded, well connected organisations relentlessly advancing a common competing standard) the inevitability of a move in this general direction seems clear, and becoming acquainted with all things blockchain-fintech related may well reap dividends.

http://www.digitalasset.com/static/documents/PRESS_RELEASE_Digital_Asset_Acquisitions.pdf
http://www.bizjournals.com/newyork/news/2015/06/25/blythe-masters-takes-the-veil-off-stealthy-startup.html

Also noticed this: (obviously slanted towards open assets ecosystem a bit.. as everything seems to be these days, but still potentially interesting)

Quote
Recall that tokenization protocols such as CoinSpark and Counterparty enable third party assets to
be issued and transacted over the bitcoin blockchain, in parallel to bitcoin’s native currency. These
techniques can equally be used on private blockchains created by MultiChain, without further
modification.

source:
http://www.multichain.com/download/MultiChain-White-Paper.pdf
http://www.multichain.com/developers/native-assets/
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June 26, 2015, 12:42:22 PM
 #11550

Have nothing to add now except to thank poloskarted for his regular updates which are very useful and informative. Keep up the good work.
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June 26, 2015, 03:33:15 PM
 #11551

Have nothing to add now except to thank poloskarted for his regular updates which are very useful and informative. Keep up the good work.

No problem!

On the same note as my last message, a new startup I had not previous heard of also jumping on the blockchain settlement hype train, comprised of former Google and NASDAQ OMX employees.

https://blockstack.io/

I think that makes about 10 of these startups now.

 If you are interested in CounterParty's competition and excited by the potential of this technology in general it's interesting to keep an eye on these projects. Because there's a surge of conferences/accelerators/thinktanks etc popping up and some really interesting ideas being thrown around. http://blockchainlondon.com/ just finished recently, One upcoming in NYC July,  http://www.americanbanker.com/conferences/digitalcurrencies/ another August in LA http://www.keynote2015.com/


also few things picked up on earlier

1)https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/41076aad0cbdfa4c4cf376e345114a5c29086f81
seems OP_ CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY merging into mainline
Although serial Counterparty disparager Flavien "coinprism" charlon suggests
  counterparty cannot benefit from this, I think he may be mistaken. Can anyone chime in to suggest otherwise?

1) New open source, low cost hardware wallet. https://digitalbitbox.com/
    Seems this could become a favorable choice for users looking to secure with 2fa, if the price is right. Dev seems to be friendly and open to integration with various projects. Maybe  counterwallet could be an early platform compatible with this?

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June 26, 2015, 07:52:30 PM
 #11552

1)https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/41076aad0cbdfa4c4cf376e345114a5c29086f81
seems OP_ CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY merging into mainline
Although serial Counterparty disparager Flavien "coinprism" charlon suggests
  counterparty cannot benefit from this, I think he may be mistaken. Can anyone chime in to suggest otherwise?

Sounds very interesting.  I'd like to know too.
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June 27, 2015, 02:01:58 AM
 #11553

1)https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/41076aad0cbdfa4c4cf376e345114a5c29086f81
seems OP_ CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY merging into mainline
Although serial Counterparty disparager Flavien "coinprism" charlon suggests
  counterparty cannot benefit from this, I think he may be mistaken. Can anyone chime in to suggest otherwise?

Sounds very interesting.  I'd like to know too.

Counterparty doesn't benefit from the introduction of `OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY`, but you can easily code identical (or much greater) functionality into Counterparty smart contracts. Counterparty already has infinitely more features than Colored Coins could ever have, because Colored Coins is just Bitcoin + tokens. To add a feature to Colored Coins, you have to fork Bitcoin itself; to add a feature to Counterparty, you just have to write it up and send it out.
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June 27, 2015, 06:54:22 PM
 #11554

Counterparty looks to have a lot of features that Colored Coins doesn't have.  But real-world implementations seem to only care about the features that Colored Coins (and Counterparty) have.  Colored Coins is a simpler protocol so it is being chosen over Counterparty consistently.  At what point do you expect implementations to choose Counterparty for the features it has that Colored Coins doesn't?
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June 27, 2015, 07:00:51 PM
 #11555

Counterparty looks to have a lot of features that Colored Coins doesn't have.  But real-world implementations seem to only care about the features that Colored Coins (and Counterparty) have.  Colored Coins is a simpler protocol so it is being chosen over Counterparty consistently.  At what point do you expect implementations to choose Counterparty for the features it has that Colored Coins doesn't?

Probably when those features (smart contracts) go live, or after. Hard to use features that don't exist on mainnet. Wink

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June 27, 2015, 09:03:36 PM
 #11556

1)https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/41076aad0cbdfa4c4cf376e345114a5c29086f81
seems OP_ CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY merging into mainline
Although serial Counterparty disparager Flavien "coinprism" charlon suggests
  counterparty cannot benefit from this, I think he may be mistaken. Can anyone chime in to suggest otherwise?

Sounds very interesting.  I'd like to know too.

Counterparty doesn't benefit from the introduction of `OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY`, but you can easily code identical (or much greater) functionality into Counterparty smart contracts. Counterparty already has infinitely more features than Colored Coins could ever have, because Colored Coins is just Bitcoin + tokens. To add a feature to Colored Coins, you have to fork Bitcoin itself; to add a feature to Counterparty, you just have to write it up and send it out.

Thank you for your answer. I am a layman so my understanding is not the best, but I was under the impression Counterparty might be able to use atomic cross chain swaps.. a variation on something like:

http://upcoder.com/11/atomic-cross-chain-exchange/
http://www.coincer.org/2015/02/03/atomic-protocol-2/
http://www.coincer.org/2015/01/27/atomic-protocol-1/
http://www.coincer.org/2015/02/06/atomic-protocol-3-final/

along with bitcoin's integration of CLTV to handle BTCpays (escrow+refunds) securely.

this project below seems not too dissimilar to counterparty and takes an approach to exchanging btc to swapbill in a decentralized way in a way that awards collateral backers should an unbacked seller default on payment of the host currency (Btc) to avoid trolling https://github.com/crispweed/swapbill http://swapbill.readthedocs.org/en/latest/example/backedsell.html I know similar things has been discussed herehttps://counterpartytalk.org/t/dex-anti-trolling-proposal/91/44 

 Is it really not possible to bake something like this into the protocol?  Basically I'm wondering if it's possible for counterparty to ever support trading BTC again?
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June 28, 2015, 09:03:59 AM
 #11557

Counterparty looks to have a lot of features that Colored Coins doesn't have.  But real-world implementations seem to only care about the features that Colored Coins (and Counterparty) have.  Colored Coins is a simpler protocol so it is being chosen over Counterparty consistently.  At what point do you expect implementations to choose Counterparty for the features it has that Colored Coins doesn't?

Those who want to experiment with building a new system from scratch (i.e. Nasdaq and Overstock) - yes, they have chosen Colored Coins because the protocol is more basic, I believe. Those who just issue a token are better off with Counterparty because it has a much larger network of users, wallets, explorers, tools, etc. The CP ecosystem is all ready quite huge: Counterwallet, XCP Companion Wallet for Chrome, IndieWallet for iPhone and Android, GetGems Messenger, Blockscan, Coindaddy, Counterpartychain, Tokenly, Vennd ++

Colored Coin is essentially a subset of Counterparty. Everything you can do with CC you can with CP, but there are many things you can do with CP that cannot be done with CC. The CP code is also getting mature. The code is barely being updated anymore because it is stable and bug free.

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June 28, 2015, 09:36:02 AM
 #11558

How will Counterparty handle the tx volume in markets Symbiont is aiming at (settlement infrastructure?)? Isn't Counterparty limited to Bitcoin's 7 tx per second?
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June 28, 2015, 01:17:41 PM
 #11559

How will Counterparty handle the tx volume in markets Symbiont is aiming at (settlement infrastructure?)? Isn't Counterparty limited to Bitcoin's 7 tx per second?

I'm guessing they'll use this:
Quote
With the Ripple Gateway implementation, Counterparty users will now be able to transfer their funds in real-time with minimal transaction fees.

The gateway allows users to send Counterparty assets through the Ripple network, and to transfer those assets back into the Counterparty network. Further, both on the Ripple and Counterparty networks, assets may be stored in offline wallets, to ensure maximum security.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/symbiont-creates-ripple-gateway-for-counterparty-xcp-300058719.html

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June 28, 2015, 05:48:20 PM
 #11560

How will Counterparty handle the tx volume in markets Symbiont is aiming at (settlement infrastructure?)? Isn't Counterparty limited to Bitcoin's 7 tx per second?

I'm guessing they'll use this:
Quote
With the Ripple Gateway implementation, Counterparty users will now be able to transfer their funds in real-time with minimal transaction fees.

The gateway allows users to send Counterparty assets through the Ripple network, and to transfer those assets back into the Counterparty network. Further, both on the Ripple and Counterparty networks, assets may be stored in offline wallets, to ensure maximum security.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/symbiont-creates-ripple-gateway-for-counterparty-xcp-300058719.html
Thanks for the hint / link. Acc. to my understanding the gateway simple allows trading assets that were created on Counterparty on the Ripple network. But what about all the financial contrasts (through scripting) and the order matching - these (as far as I understand) can only happen on Counterparty and therefore on the Bitcoin blockchain and are therefore limited to Bitcoin's 7 tx per second.

But I have another question since the PR text above didn't really explain how the gateway works: Is it a normal gateway where an issuer (Symbiont) issues tokens on the ripple network that represents counterparty assets (and possibly does that also for counterparty users who send Symbiont the counterparty assets in return for a token on Ripple that represents that asset (possible this process is automated)). Or is there no need to trust Symbiont / the gateway operator when trying to get a counterparty asset on Ripple and how would that work then? 

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