[ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread

[thunderlei]

Dividends are possible as a third-party service running on top of NXT right now, and will be in the core of NXT in the coming month. Dividends are naturally paid in NXTs (because NXT is the accounting unit), and NXT AE runs on NXT network, so those two red checkboxes are irrelevant for NXT, but sure look good for XCP marketing

Thanks very much for the explanation. I am new to both xcp and nxt and would like to understand more details of pros and cons for both coins. Is that ture  nxt is now so over valued and the initial distribution is as flaw as mastercoin?

[thunderlei]

The ability to create an asset, distribute pieces of it to various parties, then pay distributions/dividends on profit or income to the pieces of said asset, as shown in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyzA5Lj1ajM

is there any further discussion on comparison  of all these so call bitcoin 2.0,  could give us a thorough understand the potential of these coins , thanks

[devphp]

Thanks very much for the explanation. I am new to both xcp and nxt and would like to understand more details of pros and cons for both coins. Is that ture  nxt is now so over valued and the initial distribution is as flaw as mastercoin?

Valuation is a subjective thing, you will have to decide for yourself based on certain criteria that you use as an investor, I can't answer that question for you.

Initial IPO distribution of NXT is a known fact, NXT was distributed among 73 original stakeholders.
Current distribution of NXT in ~40 000 accounts is nearing Bitcoin distribution percentage-wise.
http://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.html
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_distribution
But please go to NXT thread to ask questions. I was only pointing out some inconsistencies in the image presented above.

[Bitcoin++]

The ability to create an asset, distribute pieces of it to various parties, then pay distributions/dividends on profit or income to the pieces of said asset, as shown in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyzA5Lj1ajM

Dividends may even find a (perhaps unintended) use as address alias. Say I create a token called MYNAME. I issue only one share and keep it to myself.

Instead of handing out my bitcoin address, I tell people my asset name instead. It is easy to remember and to type in. To send me bitcoin you need to pay me a dividend. Right now that's too practical, but say that a wallet program automates this.

For example, in the "Pay to" field in Electrum you could insert either an address or a token name. Perhaps the token name could be of format [TOKEN]@XCP. This would truly make bitcoin the email of money.

[freedomfighter]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20787619/Clients/Betxcp/Round%2006/Chart-04.jpg

I have to comment: It is in all of our best interests that all 3 projects are very successful. The evolution of the blockchain concept and its potential for the betterment of people around the globe is the key issue.

The competition between one and another is in my opinion irrelevant at this very early stage of cryptocurrency adaptation. In fact in an ideal world, leaders of each community should look to cooperate and not compete.

Obviously we all want to make money (note my frustration on XCP the token and how it is sold short in comparison to the great CP concept as a whole) BUT we all will if adaptation and penetration grow exponentially and this will be slower if we rip each other off etc etc.  

just a comment.

[Matt Y]

Dividends are possible as a third-party service running on top of NXT right now, and will be in the core of NXT in the coming month. Dividends are naturally paid in NXTs (because NXT is the accounting unit), and NXT AE runs on NXT network, so those two red checkboxes are irrelevant for NXT, but sure look good for XCP marketing

NXT is not built on Bitcoin so you can't pay dividends in BTC. Similarly, you can't pay dividends in NXT on Counterparty. That particular comparison was meant for the projects that were built on Bitcoin's blockchain.

[Matt Y]

The ability to create an asset, distribute pieces of it to various parties, then pay distributions/dividends on profit or income to the pieces of said asset, as shown in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyzA5Lj1ajM

is there any further discussion on comparison  of all these so call bitcoin 2.0,  could give us a thorough understand the potential of these coins , thanks

I'm not aware of any recent comparison of 2.0 projects. The only good comparison I've ever seen was in Tim Swanson's book which came out a while back: http://www.ofnumbers.com/

[Matt Y]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20787619/Clients/Betxcp/Round%2006/Chart-04.jpg

I have to comment: It is in all of our best interests that all 3 projects are very successful. The evolution of the blockchain concept and its potential for the betterment of people around the globe is the key issue.

The competition between one and another is in my opinion irrelevant at this very early stage of cryptocurrency adaptation. In fact in an ideal world, leaders of each community should look to cooperate and not compete.

Obviously we all want to make money (note my frustration on XCP the token and how it is sold short in comparison to the great CP concept as a whole) BUT we all will if adaptation and penetration grow exponentially and this will be slower if we rip each other off etc etc.  

just a comment.

As you can see from the post just above this, there is a reason for a comparison style chart and really the effort should go beyond that into more detailed comparisons of each project, including usability.

Competition is a sign of a market maturing and I personally can't wait for a little more of it. Competition has moved the 2.0 space forward dramatically already and it will continue to do so in the future. It's important that people have a number of platforms to choose from so that they can work through their decision making process and choose whatever solution is best for their needs.

[deliciousowl]

As you can see from the post just above this, there is a reason for a comparison style chart and really the effort should go beyond that into more detailed comparisons of each project, including usability.

Competition is a sign of a market maturing and I personally can't wait for a little more of it. Competition has moved the 2.0 space forward dramatically already and it will continue to do so in the future. It's important that people have a number of platforms to choose from so that they can work through their decision making process and choose whatever solution is best for their needs.

You should probably also mention the following:

• NXT only supports trading between NXT and assets, not assets with assets. Counterparty supports trading between Bitcoin, assets, and XCP
• Mastercoin requires you to send a small amount of BTC to the founder every time you use its features. They claim this is necessary, but Counterparty doesn't do it.
• Mastercoin will charge 0.3% for trading Bitcoin as well as user-created assets. Counterparty does not.
  

[Matt Y]

As you can see from the post just above this, there is a reason for a comparison style chart and really the effort should go beyond that into more detailed comparisons of each project, including usability.

Competition is a sign of a market maturing and I personally can't wait for a little more of it. Competition has moved the 2.0 space forward dramatically already and it will continue to do so in the future. It's important that people have a number of platforms to choose from so that they can work through their decision making process and choose whatever solution is best for their needs.

You should probably also mention the following:

• NXT only supports trading between NXT and assets, not assets with assets. Counterparty supports trading between Bitcoin, assets, and XCP
• Mastercoin requires you to send a small amount of BTC to the founder every time you use its features. They claim this is necessary, but Counterparty doesn't do it.
• Mastercoin will charge 0.3% for trading Bitcoin as well as user-created assets. Counterparty does not.
  

There are a number of other fields that could be added. This is a simple list that focuses on functionality and forgoes any discussion of model choices (with the exception of "is this project built on Bitcoin"). I'll hand it off to the Counterparty Founders and you guys to do what you want with it. My hope is that it can be added to Counterparty.co/comparison so that it's easy to link to and can be updated as time goes on.

[pikuchato]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/295las/35_of_my_btc_gone_pc_not_compromised/

It seems like brainwallet.org used weak random functions when creating a paraphrase...

Can anyone please confirm that counterwallet.co does not have this problem so I'll be able to sleep without nightmares?

[PhantomPhreak]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/295las/35_of_my_btc_gone_pc_not_compromised/

It seems like brainwallet.org used weak random functions when creating a paraphrase...

Can anyone please confirm that counterwallet.co does not have this problem so I'll be able to sleep without nightmares?

I can confirm it. Counterwallet only uses cryptographically secure pseudo-random number generators.

[pikuchato]

PhantomPhreak, Thank you!

[nutildah]

What will happen if someone puts up an illegal asset? Has anybody raised that question yet?

Lets say somone anonymous creates an asset that infringes on some companies copyrights, called "Facebook" or "Nintendo" for example?
Or if I create an asset that makes money with illegal activities like DDOS blackmail or sale of drugs. Would a SilkRoad-asset be allowed to exist and is there any way to remove it? What is the official policy of the devs if they have regarding those cases?

Counterparty is an open platform, like Bitcoin itself, and no one (not even a dev) is capable of removing or renaming other users' assets

Hi PhantomPhreak,

I too am only a month or two into Counterparty and am fascinated by its capabilities and potential. Since SilkRoad was shut down do you fear websites like Counterwallet could potentially be shut down if there was evidence of some sort of nefarious activities (regarding copyright infringement or illegal goods) going on with the assets?

I am near certain a few NXT assets have been publicly exposed as more-or-less scams already, though to be fair one guy (NewNxtGames) did offer to repurchase all the assets he sold at their purchase price when his whole idea for making games based on the NXT blockchain fell through.

My apologies if you are already well tired of answering this question. I read all the CounterParty Protocol and Wiki articles and will dig into this thread before I ask any potentially silly questions.

[Jpja]

Announcement.

I wrote the ebook The Economics of Bitcoin. It aims to relate bitcoin to the dollar and gold. What are the similarities and where do they differ? Is bitcoin a fad or will it grow further?

The book is free but tipping is appreciated. As an experiment you can "invest" in the book rather than leave a tip. I issued a counterparty asset, JPJA, whose holders will receive a dividend. All tips received by Dec 24 2014 will be paid out to holders of JPJA.

Here's how I explained it in the book:

My Bitcoin 2.0 Counterparty Giveaway

Half the tip I receive I will give away to users of Counterwallet. It uses a “Bitcoin 2.0” technology called Counterparty which allows its users to issue assets and trade them just like shares are traded on the stock market.

My asset is called JPJA, which consists of one hundred shares. I promise to pay a dividend to each holder on the 24th of December 2014. The amount received on the tip address up until that date will be divided equally to each of the one hundred shares.

JPJA can be bought for a symbolic sum 0.0005 BTC each, or about $0.30. I put only a few shares for sale at a time to make it less likely that one person picks up all. After you've purchased a share you can transfer it to any bitcoin address. You may also put if for sale at a higher price, and if you are lucky, you will make a profit when someone buys it from you.

My motive for doing this is to show that bitcoin is more than just a payment system. It is a financial platform of endless opportunities.

http://jpja.net/pdf/EconomicsOfBitcoin.pdf

EDIT: I lowered the price of JPJA to a "giveway" level of about $0.30. I issued JPJA in the first place to show the possibilities of Counterparty / Bitcoin, not to beg for money or make a profit.

[IamNotSure]

Hello,

I'm trying to sign & broadcast a transaction made with coinsweeper in counterwallet but I got this error message in the signed transaction box :

Cannot read property 'call' of undefined

Any clue of what I'm doing wrong ?

[prophetx]

As you can see from the post just above this, there is a reason for a comparison style chart and really the effort should go beyond that into more detailed comparisons of each project, including usability.

Competition is a sign of a market maturing and I personally can't wait for a little more of it. Competition has moved the 2.0 space forward dramatically already and it will continue to do so in the future. It's important that people have a number of platforms to choose from so that they can work through their decision making process and choose whatever solution is best for their needs.

You should probably also mention the following:

• NXT only supports trading between NXT and assets, not assets with assets. Counterparty supports trading between Bitcoin, assets, and XCP
• Mastercoin requires you to send a small amount of BTC to the founder every time you use its features. They claim this is necessary, but Counterparty doesn't do it.
• Mastercoin will charge 0.3% for trading Bitcoin as well as user-created assets. Counterparty does not.
  

There are a number of other fields that could be added. This is a simple list that focuses on functionality and forgoes any discussion of model choices (with the exception of "is this project built on Bitcoin"). I'll hand it off to the Counterparty Founders and you guys to do what you want with it. My hope is that it can be added to Counterparty.co/comparison so that it's easy to link to and can be updated as time goes on.

i dont recall that the 0.3% is taken on btc trades, only meta coin trades. then the msc fee is burned which lowers the total supply of msc.

and as a holder of coins from both projects i would hope that the xcp community realize that if all the features of something are free to use there is no underlying value for it.  it is good that there at least is a small fee for issuing currencies on xcp...

bitcoin has mining fee and a transaction subsidy which is essentially a tax on current holders as the currency inflates.  obviously xcp or msc cannot be mined but there needs to be some cost imposed so people don't just leech from the work others do.

satoshi smartly designed a pretty damn good economic model to provide compensation for mining work and development work is tied to that as the more tx that can pushed to the blockchain the higher the value of BTC. it is not perfected yet as there is some of a disconnect between core dev's and miners but it works somewhat as we can see from the price of BTC.

i don't see a well thought out economic model for xcp.  don't take offense guys, we all have met in person, but this part needs to be boned up a lot if you all are going to be able to eat.

maybe there should be a vote on this issue...

[prophetx]

Announcement.

I wrote the ebook The Economics of Bitcoin. It aims to relate bitcoin to the dollar and gold. What are the similarities and where do they differ? Is bitcoin a fad or will it grow further?

The book is free but tipping is appreciated. As an experiment you can "invest" in the book rather than leave a tip. I issued a counterparty asset, JPJA, whose holders will receive a dividend. All tips received by Dec 24 2014 will be paid out to holders of JPJA.

Here's how I explained it in the book:

My Bitcoin 2.0 Counterparty Experiment

Instead of leaving me tip, you can invest in me. The scheme is simple. Through a “Bitcoin 2.0” technology called Counterparty I issued a digital asset called JPJA. It works just like a share of a company. You can buy and sell it with bitcoins, as well as transfer it on the bitcoin network.

I issued  one hundred shares, and I promise to pay a dividend to each holder on the 24th of December 2014. The amount received on the tip address up until that date will be divided equally to each of the one hundred shares.

JPJA can be bought through the Counterwallet. I initially put them for sales at 0.002 BTC each. This means that you will make a positive return if I receive more than a fifth of a bitcoin in tip. I may adjust the sales price depending on how much tip I receive.

The reason for this experiment is to show that bitcoin is more than just a payment system. It is a financial platform of endless opportunities.

http://jpja.net/pdf/The%20Economics%20of%20Bitcoin%202014-06-26.pdf

so you are going to pay out a part of your personal income from now until Xmas??  

what was your lasts years income?

what piece of you can we buy?  up to 100%?  can we direct you to do things for us if we control 50%+?

is the investment in you or the book? it is not clear, just sounds like you are beggin for free money.

[deliciousowl]

i dont recall that the 0.3% is taken on btc trades, only meta coin trades. then the msc fee is burned which lowers the total supply of msc.

Sorry, but it's true.


The BTC fee isn't burned though, it goes directly to J.R. Willett.

i don't see a well thought out economic model for xcp.  don't take offense guys, we all have met in person, but this part needs to be boned up a lot if you all are going to be able to eat.

P.S. Your point is actually exactly the same I have been trying to make. Mastercoin was made to pump its own value artificially and make MSC holders rich at the expense of others. Just because Counterparty isn't fuelled and motivated by greed, does not mean it doesn't have inherent value.

Satoshi didn't create Bitcoin to get rich, and Counterparty devs did not create XCP to get rich. They want to make the ecosystem healthier and a better place, not run a get rich quick scheme..... There's enough pump and dumps around if you want to focus on that...

[prophetx]

i dont recall that the 0.3% is taken on btc trades, only meta coin trades. then the msc fee is burned which lowers the total supply of msc.

Sorry, but it's true.


The BTC fee isn't burned though, it goes directly to J.R. Willett.

i don't see a well thought out economic model for xcp.  don't take offense guys, we all have met in person, but this part needs to be boned up a lot if you all are going to be able to eat.

P.S. Your point is actually exactly the same I have been trying to make. Mastercoin was made to pump its own value artificially and make MSC holders rich at the expense of others. Just because Counterparty isn't fuelled and motivated by greed, does not mean it doesn't have inherent value.

Satoshi didn't create Bitcoin to get rich, and Counterparty devs did not create XCP to get rich. They want to make the ecosystem healthier and a better place, not run a get rich quick scheme..... There's enough pump and dumps around if you want to focus on that...

Really? Satoshi didn't create BTC to get rich?  Have you asked him why he hasn't distributed to charity the 1 million or so btc he mined?  

I will have to speak to mastercoin dev's about that bitcoin part, i don't recall a discussion where that should have been the case regarding issuances.  regarding the exodus fee they just havent had time to take that out...

the mastercoin foundation is there to develop the master protocol and ensure that mastercoins have some value through uses.  that is not a pump and dump, that is called being a rational economic actor.  

you probably don't get that and that is why xcp will continue to devalue relative to btc. (hey if i am wrong i have a shit ton of xcp )  currently the only inherent value is attached to the issuance fee...  oh those greedy developers making people pay a fee.

anyway anyone investing money into people that have some pie in the sky idea should ask VC Matt Ocko of what he thinks of investing in dreamers.  He also invested many millions into a digital encrypted virtual economy way back in the 1990s, he can tell you all about how that worked out.  

I am very confident time will prove me right on this point, and like I said if I am wrong I will be laughing looking at my balance sheet.