[ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread

[Matt Y]

Congratulations Adam. Great vision and execution.

[hozer]

Yes, if you try to buy an asset with BTC, it takes about an hour to complete

I'm still not quite get why it should take one hour to complete. Let's say a block takes 10 mins. Matching takes 1 block, Btcpay 1 block, so 20 mins, what do I miss.

The reason is blockchain reorganizations, which  basically rewrite the recent history of transactions, and Bitcoin payments are irreversible. So a blockchain reorganization can invalidate a BTCpay, because it can remove a previously valid order match from the ledger.

It takes 3 days to go through coinbase, and you're complaining about an hour?

The faster you trade, the faster the high-frequency trading algos will take your money. If it takes an hour to trade soybeans that take me a year to grow, that seems like a good deal to me.

What I do need, however is a way to set up a BTCpay escrow account, a way to have make the BTCpay happen without my browser being open, and some sort of two-factor auth for counterwallet.

[brioche]

I can't seem to login to the counter wallet at https://www.counterwallet.co/# it keeps saying no server found?

[xnova]

I can't seem to login to the counter wallet at https://www.counterwallet.co/# it keeps saying no server found?

Should be fixed. We'll be making some changes to hopefully increase reliability shortly.

[xnova]

Check out our new blog post about how Counterparty is helping to bring about the new and growing field of artist coins!

https://www.counterparty.co/bitcoin-2-0-enabling-crowdfunding-of-music-and-art/

If you believe in the concept, please consider donating to Tatianacoin and Niceplum, the two first artistcoins!

And, this post will also be syndicated to Let's Talk Bitcoin, in return for some (newly launched) LTBCoins. The Counterparty community is really starting to develop.

[impulsecorp]

I wrote earlier about how difficult it was for me to buy an asset (JPJA) using Counterparty (via counterwallet.co).  First, it was very confusing just to figure out how to actually place an order, then it was confusing to figure out the quantity/price I was supposed to pay (it told me it could not automatically quote an exact price for me), and then I had several unsuccessful attempts to buy the asset because it made a match but never completed the transaction. And, just trying to figure out if I had pending orders (that seemed stuck) and how to cancel them was difficult. As of right now I still don't own any JPJA. But, I understand bugs like this happen in new systems. On top of all of that though, after a few days of trying in vein to buy JPJA (I couldn't care less about buying it, I was just doing it to test how the Counterparty asset system works), my countewallet.co balance is now 70% less than I started with, even though I completed 0 actual transactions (and have 0 pending). I only lost around 50 cents worth of BTC, so it is not a big deal, but all of this scares me.  I should add that I have run my own Internet business since 1995, own 300+ websites, and started my own digital currency type site (DigiCredit.com) 12 years ago. So, I can't imagine how the general public could handle any of this.

If I want to issue my own digital asset, and make it easy for people to buy it, what are the advantages/disadvantages of using NXT (or Mastercoin, Ripple, Ethereum, Open Transactions, etc...) instead? It does not seem practical at this point to use Counterparty, although maybe the other asset type crytpocurrencies have just as many problems.

FYI, here's a copy of what I posted to the Counterparty tech support forum ( https://forums.counterparty.co/index.php/topic,188.msg2765.html#new ) about the problems I am having:

------------------------------------------------

Prior to your update yesterday, I tried to buy the asset JPJA at the market price using the BTC already in my counterparty.co account (Address = 12F5Pzwk8AhZsx1un1AXRqG8DLCukzmFXi ), but had lots of problems and could not buy it. I had 2 orders that matched (the 2nd order was to replace the first order which I cancelled after it did not get completed), but neither went through, and I have no idea why. But, that is not even the biggest problem.

I started by transferring around 0.00237555 BTC to my counterparty.co wallet, and that worked fine.  I then had a bunch of failed and cancelled orders, and that I understand. What I don't understand is that in the end, I bought and sold nothing at all in counterparty.co, yet my
BTC balance decreased from 0.00237555 BTC to 0.0006484 BTC. Where did 70% of my BTC go? Are there fees/commission for cancelled transactions? Even if there were, it would not amount to 70% of what I was buying.

Here's my account history:
Tx   Block   Block Time   Source   Type   Description
e9024   308464   Jun 29th 2014, 11:08:39 am   My Address #1   Cancel      Order/Bet 204a7c53eff2fa67df4101c875140ea093db2a41fcb3d0b6f8228129a14170fe cancelled.
   308403   Jun 29th 2014, 2:29:00 am      Order Match Exp      Order Match d40276c9d63d148f48ff3bb7ee15f7fd400f1bb9a29aeade329e7faa9d92d42d204a7c53eff2fa6 7df4101c875140ea093db2a41fcb3d0b6f8228129a14170fe expired
24cc7   308382   Jun 28th 2014, 11:57:41 pm   My Address #1   Cancel      Order/Bet 404dec488e13b30b9ee29a36ffff4324aa9302bd5ac4bdb25cc72becdf0cd262 cancelled.
170fe...204a7   308382   Jun 28th 2014, 11:57:41 pm      Order Match      1K2eXP3wsX4W5HjnkNKsqX1fgRPhFA5RNv sent 1 JPJA
My Address #1 sent 0.0005 BTC (pending BTCpay)
170fe   308382   Jun 28th 2014, 11:57:41 pm   My Address #1   Order      Sell 0.0005 BTC for 1 JPJA
   308228   Jun 28th 2014, 5:31:08 am      Order Match Exp      Order Match d40276c9d63d148f48ff3bb7ee15f7fd400f1bb9a29aeade329e7faa9d92d42d404dec488e13b30 b9ee29a36ffff4324aa9302bd5ac4bdb25cc72becdf0cd262 expired
cd262...404de   308207   Jun 28th 2014, 1:09:00 am      Order Match      1K2eXP3wsX4W5HjnkNKsqX1fgRPhFA5RNv sent 1 JPJA
My Address #1 sent 0.0005 BTC (pending BTCpay)
cd262   308207   Jun 28th 2014, 1:09:00 am   My Address #1   Order      Sell 0.0005 BTC for 1 JPJA
cd9b4   308141   Jun 27th 2014, 5:12:13 pm   My Address #1   Cancel      Order/Bet d4f93246b727be2271373bee164dab8cf823a9e54ad92eb7cab5989b7999996d cancelled.
9996d   308113   Jun 27th 2014, 2:05:03 pm   My Address #1   Order      Sell 0.00237555 BTC for 0.68 XCP
Showing 1 to 10 of 10 entries
------------------------------------------------------

[PhantomPhreak]

I wrote earlier about how difficult it was for me to buy an asset (JPJA) using Counterparty (via counterwallet.co).  First, it was very confusing just to figure out how to actually place an order, then it was confusing to figure out the quantity/price I was supposed to pay (it told me it could not automatically quote an exact price for me), and then I had several unsuccessful attempts to buy the asset because it made a match but never completed the transaction. And, just trying to figure out if I had pending orders (that seemed stuck) and how to cancel them was difficult. As of right now I still don't own any JPJA. But, I understand bugs like this happen in new systems. On top of all of that though, after a few days of trying in vein to buy JPJA (I couldn't care less about buying it, I was just doing it to test how the Counterparty asset system works), my countewallet.co balance is now 70% less than I started with, even though I completed 0 actual transactions (and have 0 pending). I only lost around 50 cents worth of BTC, so it is not a big deal, but all of this scares me.  I should add that I have run my own Internet business since 1995, own 300+ websites, and started my own digital currency type site (DigiCredit.com) 12 years ago. So, I can't imagine how the general public could handle any of this.

If I want to issue my own digital asset, and make it easy for people to buy it, what are the advantages/disadvantages of using NXT (or Mastercoin, Ripple, Ethereum, Open Transactions, etc...) instead? It does not seem practical at this point to use Counterparty, although maybe the other asset type crytpocurrencies have just as many problems.

FYI, here's a copy of what I posted to the Counterparty tech support forum ( https://forums.counterparty.co/index.php/topic,188.msg2765.html#new ) about the problems I am having:

------------------------------------------------

Prior to your update yesterday, I tried to buy the asset JPJA at the market price using the BTC already in my counterparty.co account (Address = 12F5Pzwk8AhZsx1un1AXRqG8DLCukzmFXi ), but had lots of problems and could not buy it. I had 2 orders that matched (the 2nd order was to replace the first order which I cancelled after it did not get completed), but neither went through, and I have no idea why. But, that is not even the biggest problem.

I started by transferring around 0.00237555 BTC to my counterparty.co wallet, and that worked fine.  I then had a bunch of failed and cancelled orders, and that I understand. What I don't understand is that in the end, I bought and sold nothing at all in counterparty.co, yet my
BTC balance decreased from 0.00237555 BTC to 0.0006484 BTC. Where did 70% of my BTC go? Are there fees/commission for cancelled transactions? Even if there were, it would not amount to 70% of what I was buying.

Here's my account history:
Tx   Block   Block Time   Source   Type   Description
e9024   308464   Jun 29th 2014, 11:08:39 am   My Address #1   Cancel      Order/Bet 204a7c53eff2fa67df4101c875140ea093db2a41fcb3d0b6f8228129a14170fe cancelled.
   308403   Jun 29th 2014, 2:29:00 am      Order Match Exp      Order Match d40276c9d63d148f48ff3bb7ee15f7fd400f1bb9a29aeade329e7faa9d92d42d204a7c53eff2fa6 7df4101c875140ea093db2a41fcb3d0b6f8228129a14170fe expired
24cc7   308382   Jun 28th 2014, 11:57:41 pm   My Address #1   Cancel      Order/Bet 404dec488e13b30b9ee29a36ffff4324aa9302bd5ac4bdb25cc72becdf0cd262 cancelled.
170fe...204a7   308382   Jun 28th 2014, 11:57:41 pm      Order Match      1K2eXP3wsX4W5HjnkNKsqX1fgRPhFA5RNv sent 1 JPJA
My Address #1 sent 0.0005 BTC (pending BTCpay)
170fe   308382   Jun 28th 2014, 11:57:41 pm   My Address #1   Order      Sell 0.0005 BTC for 1 JPJA
   308228   Jun 28th 2014, 5:31:08 am      Order Match Exp      Order Match d40276c9d63d148f48ff3bb7ee15f7fd400f1bb9a29aeade329e7faa9d92d42d404dec488e13b30 b9ee29a36ffff4324aa9302bd5ac4bdb25cc72becdf0cd262 expired
cd262...404de   308207   Jun 28th 2014, 1:09:00 am      Order Match      1K2eXP3wsX4W5HjnkNKsqX1fgRPhFA5RNv sent 1 JPJA
My Address #1 sent 0.0005 BTC (pending BTCpay)
cd262   308207   Jun 28th 2014, 1:09:00 am   My Address #1   Order      Sell 0.0005 BTC for 1 JPJA
cd9b4   308141   Jun 27th 2014, 5:12:13 pm   My Address #1   Cancel      Order/Bet d4f93246b727be2271373bee164dab8cf823a9e54ad92eb7cab5989b7999996d cancelled.
9996d   308113   Jun 27th 2014, 2:05:03 pm   My Address #1   Order      Sell 0.00237555 BTC for 0.68 XCP
Showing 1 to 10 of 10 entries
------------------------------------------------------

You have to be logged in to Counterwallet when your order matches. Otherwise the order expires, and the BTC fees that you paid to Bitcoin miners are gone. If you're going to be buying very small amounts of something, and/or if you don't want to stay logged in, then buy that asset with XCP.

If you had made the same 7 transactions with NXT, for example, the fees would have been about the same (1 NXT/transaction * 7 transactions * 0.055 USD/NXT = 0.38 USD, at current prices). Except with NXT, you can't buy anything with BTC at all.

[impulsecorp]

I did generally stay logged in most of the time, but even though I was buying at the market price, nothing happened after 5+ hours each time.
Also, my first transaction was to buy XCP with BTC at the market price, but after 3 hours the order never completed so I cancelled it.

[PhantomPhreak]

I did generally stay logged in most of the time, but even though I was buying at the market price, nothing happened after 5+ hours each time.

Actually, I think the reason that those orders didn't get resolved is that they were too small to be worth paying for. You would have had to pay as much in fees as for the asset.

EDIT: I've created a GitHub issue to put into place a lower limit on order sizes when selling BTC, so that this shouldn't happen again.

[impulsecorp]

Oh. I would have been fine with that. I was just trying to test out the system.
Edit: But it seems I got charged all the same fees anyhow. Maybe you should add a note somewhere about how fees are still charged even if the transaction is cancelled.

[PhantomPhreak]

Oh. I would have been fine with that. I was just trying to test out the system.
Edit: But it seems I got charged all the same fees anyhow. Maybe you should add a note somewhere about how fees are still charged even if the transaction is cancelled.

That's a good idea. Will do.

[hozer]

Oh. I would have been fine with that. I was just trying to test out the system.
Edit: But it seems I got charged all the same fees anyhow. Maybe you should add a note somewhere about how fees are still charged even if the transaction is cancelled.

That's a good idea. Will do.

Is there a data feed that could be used (say coinbase's BTC buy/sell price) to show the fees and price of assets in dollars? Otherwise I have to go converting dollars to btc and then to the asset I'm selling/buying.

This would also be an opportunity for someone who wants to deal with FINCEN to provide such a thing as a service. I want to be able to tell people who want to buy soybeans to go to a money transmitter/payment processor site that runs a counterwallet and 'buy now' with a credit card. (coinbase/cryptsy/start-ups are you listening??)

[Jpja]

I wrote earlier about how difficult it was for me to buy an asset (JPJA) using Counterparty (via counterwallet.co).  First, it was very confusing just to figure out how to actually place an order, then it was confusing to figure out the quantity/price I was supposed to pay (it told me it could not automatically quote an exact price for me)

I had the same confusing experience. It seems to me that technically the exchange works well (at least when BTC is not involved) and all information is logically correct. But I believe confusion appears because the prices are displayed inversely to how we intuitively see them. If I for example want to buy SWARMPRE for XCP, the confusion starts on the second page.  Where it says "Buying XCP" I think it is more user friendly to write "Selling SWARMPRE" although these two statements are equivalent. And where the unit price "21.5 SWARMPRE/XCP" it would be better with "0.0465 XCP/SWARMPRE".

Where it says "Selling XCP" it should say "Buying SWARMPRE" at price 0.0462. Now you see that the highest buy offer is a little bit below the lowest ask (sales offer), just as we are used to from financial markets.

Since Counterparty enables barter, it will not always be obvious which asset is the currency, e.g. is it better to write 2 apples/orange or 0.5 orange/apple? For Counterwallet, however, I am of the opinion that in transactions involving XCP or BTC these should always be used as the currency.

[impulsecorp]

I agree with hozer, that showing the value in USD would be a big help. I am not experienced in Bitcoin enough to be able to see a USD value in my head when I see a BTC amount (like .000236 BTC). Those small BTC amounts are almost meaningless to me unless it is something easy like .10 BTC or .50 BTC, and even then the BTC price constantly changes so I just know a ballpark estimate.

I also agree it would be much easier if their was a more automated way for a company to sell an asset to the public, like a Buy Now button. It doesn't need to be as simple as using a credit card, it could just be a counterwallet.co address to send a certain amount of BTC to, or programming that uses an API to automated multiple steps.

Also, unrelated to that, buying the Soybeans (http://www.7el.us/crypto-commodities.html) asset seems very similar to buying a Soybeans future on the commodity exchange. While I am not sure if there are any legal issues in pre-selling a commodity, it would seem that the fact that it is meant to be traded on an "exchange" makes it a security like Soybean futures (listed on the Chicago Board of Trade), and that would be subject to SEC regulation. See info about the SEC crackdown on this at   
https://nxtforum.org/asset-exchange-general/legality-of-assetexchange-offerings/msg35025/#msg35025 . Other than that potential issue, it seems like a great idea.

- Eric

[impulsecorp]

Jpja - I have traded stocks for 30 years (the past 5 years online) and also done some crytocurrency trading (via Cryptsy) and I was still totally confused by the way the order book is presented at counterwallet.co due to the inverse way the prices are presented.

[Jpja]

I agree with hozer, that showing the value in USD would be a big help. I am not experienced in Bitcoin enough to be able to see a USD value in my head when I see a BTC amount (like .000236 BTC). Those small BTC amounts are almost meaningless to me unless it is something easy like .10 BTC or .50 BTC, and even then the BTC price constantly changes so I just know a ballpark estimate.

Agree. though in my case I select EUR. I use this option on all wallets where available. I also use mBTC rather than BTC.

[BitcoinBudz]

I agree and I feel I may have to switch exchanges due to people saying they can not use the system or know how.  I have had people message me asking me about the system, I have no clue how to use it beyond what I have been showed in a video.

[PhantomPhreak]

I also agree it would be much easier if their was a more automated way for a company to sell an asset to the public, like a Buy Now button. It doesn't need to be as simple as using a credit card, it could just be a counterwallet.co address to send a certain amount of BTC to, or programming that uses an API to automated multiple steps.

This is also a very good idea. We should be able to implement this pretty easily, I think. (Through the 'extended asset info' standard.)

Thanks everyone for the feedback, by the way. It's very helpful. We'll look into inverting the prices, too, in case that could help.

[mindtomatter]

I wrote earlier about how difficult it was for me to buy an asset (JPJA) using Counterparty (via counterwallet.co).  First, it was very confusing just to figure out how to actually place an order, then it was confusing to figure out the quantity/price I was supposed to pay (it told me it could not automatically quote an exact price for me)

I had the same confusing experience. It seems to me that technically the exchange works well (at least when BTC is not involved) and all information is logically correct. But I believe confusion appears because the prices are displayed inversely to how we intuitively see them. If I for example want to buy SWARMPRE for XCP, the confusion starts on the second page.  Where it says "Buying XCP" I think it is more user friendly to write "Selling SWARMPRE" although these two statements are equivalent. And where the unit price "21.5 SWARMPRE/XCP" it would be better with "0.0465 XCP/SWARMPRE".

Where it says "Selling XCP" it should say "Buying SWARMPRE" at price 0.0462. Now you see that the highest buy offer is a little bit below the lowest ask (sales offer), just as we are used to from financial markets.

Since Counterparty enables barter, it will not always be obvious which asset is the currency, e.g. is it better to write 2 apples/orange or 0.5 orange/apple? For Counterwallet, however, I am of the opinion that in transactions involving XCP or BTC these should always be used as the currency.

I totally agree with this post!

[impulsecorp]

The statement of what you are buying was very clear, but I would guess that at least 50% of people (the general public, not the type of people on this forum) never even get to that point because it is too confusing.