[ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread

[led_lcd]

What do you think of setting up a new type of order using XCP that essentially lets anyone do a "kickstarter" style threshold-or-everyone-is-refunded asset sale order?

" I'm buying x TOKEN for y, but only once amount z is bought at the same time."

Those orders would accumulate and then excute all at once, as soon as the goal is reached. Optionally you could put a date your order expires, which is a personal "end of campaign" threshold for each person.

and it would only be possible with an XCP based instrument, so bitcoin would be out and XCP is suddenly the crowdfunding token because it can be escrowed

That would take all the trust off platforms like swarm and coinpowers, and be one of the first real uses of escrowing on the blockchain, and a damn good use for XCP - Bitcoin is the currency, and XCP is the crowdfunding/cryptofinance platform built on top.

I'm in favour of this. I think baking in an assurance contract into the Counterparty protocol makes sense.

[romerun]

Hey storj is considering crowdfund on XCP or MSC.

http://storjtalk.org/index.php?topic=1341#

[iram3130]

Hey storj is considering crowdfund on XCP or MSC.

http://storjtalk.org/index.php?topic=1341#

Nice, if it will happen then price will really rise too fast.

[deliciousowl]

Let's see when Counterparty can get more established in China.  

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/29gwk8/we_are_okcoin_auaask_us_anything/cikt34l

[impulsecorp]

I posted a few days ago about how difficult it was for me to buy a Counterparty asset (see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=395761.msg7583587#msg7583587 ), and I ended up giving up and not buying it at all. And, I have owned my own Internet business since 1995 so I am not a newbie.

I am not trying to say bad things about Counterparty, I am just trying to help give suggestions to improve it, so in that spirit yesterday I setup an online NXT wallet at
secureae.com and transferred $1 in BTC from my Coinbase account to it (by sending it to the Bitcoin address they gave me). Secureae.com automatically converted my BTC to NXT and the NXT just showed up in my secureae.com account without me having to do anything.

I then went to trustyourassets.com (NXT also has an official exchange with a lot less listings at http://www.nxtcommunity.org/nxt-asset-exchange ) to see a list of available assets I could buy. I sorted by the Dividend column, so it would only show me the ones with dividends, since those are the only ones I was interested in (Yes, I know NXT is still working on getting their dividend payment system working correctly but it sounds like it should be done soon). I then went back to secureae.com and did a search for each of the assets I wanted to buy (it would have been easier if trustyourassets.com had a Buy Now type link that would automatically open the asset's page in my secureae.com wallet, or at least if secureae.com had a bulk search feature so I could match a large list of assets). Since I only had $1 to spend, I only choose to buy assets that were very low priced, so I could get several different ones with the $1 I had.  I submitted Buy orders for each of the assets as the market price and within minutes all the assets showed up in my wallet (at secureae.com):
My Assets
Asset    Quantity    Total Available    Percentage    Lowest Ask    Highest Bid    Value in NXT    Transfer
JAFFA   1   1'333'333   0.00%   0.4   /   /   Transfer
KGallery   4   1'000'000   0.00%   0.25   /   /   Transfer
nXtGenKHS   1   250'000   0.00%   2.5   1.51   1.51   Transfer
Supercell   2   10'000'000   0.00%   0.569   0.4   0.8   Transfer

I also placed a few Buy orders below the current asking price, just to see if they ever get triggered (so far they have not):
Buy Orders
Asset    Quantity    Price    Total    Cancel
Coinomat   1   2.01   2.01   Cancel
NxtAT   100   0.008   0.8   Cancel

Unlike, with Counterparty, all of this was very very easy to do, just like using any other online service (Paypal, an online stock brokerage, Amazon, etc.). Also, it very clearly stated there was a 1 NXT fee for each transaction. And, when I was done I could easily see what I had bought and any open orders. My only suggestion would be that when it lists my assets, it should also show what price I bought them for, and the total value of my portfolio of assets.

I know Counterparty has some advantages over NXT, especially when it comes to paying dividends, so I am pointing out all of of these issues to try to help make Counterparty better.

- Eric

[PhantomPhreak]

I posted a few days ago about how difficult it was for me to buy a Counterparty asset (see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=395761.msg7583587#msg7583587 ), and I ended up giving up and not buying it at all. And, I have owned my own Internet business since 1995 so I am not a newbie.

I am not trying to say bad things about Counterparty, I am just trying to help give suggestions to improve it, so in that spirit yesterday I setup an online NXT wallet at
secureae.com and transferred $1 in BTC from my Coinbase account to it (by sending it to the Bitcoin address they gave me). Secureae.com automatically converted my BTC to NXT and the NXT just showed up in my secureae.com account without me having to do anything.

I then went to trustyourassets.com (NXT also has an official exchange with a lot less listings at http://www.nxtcommunity.org/nxt-asset-exchange ) to see a list of available assets I could buy. I sorted by the Dividend column, so it would only show me the ones with dividends, since those are the only ones I was interested in (Yes, I know NXT is still working on getting their dividend payment system working correctly but it sounds like it should be done soon). I then went back to secureae.com and did a search for each of the assets I wanted to buy (it would have been easier if trustyourassets.com had a Buy Now type link that would automatically open the asset's page in my secureae.com wallet, or at least if secureae.com had a bulk search feature so I could match a large list of assets). Since I only had $1 to spend, I only choose to buy assets that were very low priced, so I could get several different ones with the $1 I had.  I submitted Buy orders for each of the assets as the market price and within minutes all the assets showed up in my wallet (at secureae.com):
My Assets
Asset    Quantity    Total Available    Percentage    Lowest Ask    Highest Bid    Value in NXT    Transfer
JAFFA   1   1'333'333   0.00%   0.4   /   /   Transfer
KGallery   4   1'000'000   0.00%   0.25   /   /   Transfer
nXtGenKHS   1   250'000   0.00%   2.5   1.51   1.51   Transfer
Supercell   2   10'000'000   0.00%   0.569   0.4   0.8   Transfer

I also placed a few Buy orders below the current asking price, just to see if they ever get triggered (so far they have not):
Buy Orders
Asset    Quantity    Price    Total    Cancel
Coinomat   1   2.01   2.01   Cancel
NxtAT   100   0.008   0.8   Cancel

Unlike, with Counterparty, all of this was very very easy to do, just like using any other online service (Paypal, an online stock brokerage, Amazon, etc.). Also, it very clearly stated there was a 1 NXT fee for each transaction. And, when I was done I could easily see what I had bought and any open orders. My only suggestion would be that when it lists my assets, it should also show what price I bought them for, and the total value of my portfolio of assets.

I know Counterparty has some advantages over NXT, especially when it comes to paying dividends, so I am point out all of these issue to try to help make Counterparty better.

- Eric

Thanks for the feeback. As I understand it, the NXT asset exchange was easier to use for three reasons:

1) Buying NXT could be done by sending BTC to an address.

2) There exists a website where you can easily see a list of existing assets.

3) The trades were completed quickly.

1) and 2) are not handled by the protocol, they are just external services that no one has yet set up for Counterparty. Moreover, I know that we have people that are currently working on them right now. With regard to 3), I can say that your trades with Counterparty would have been completed very quickly, too, if you used XCP, Counterparty's native currency, instead of BTC, to make your trades. Because of 1), Counterparty users are inclined to buy assets with BTC rather than XCP, which is much slower. Of course, NXT could never support trades with BTC.

[impulsecorp]

PhantomPhreak - Yes, it seems like all those issues can be easily fixed with Counterparty. And yes, using BTC was part of the problem, but I only used BTC because I first tried to buy XCP (using BTC) at the market price and the order never completed, so after 3 hours I gave up and tried it using BTC instead.

 

[sparta_cuss]

My only suggestion would be that when it lists my assets, it should also show what price I bought them for, and the total value of my portfolio of assets.

Hello, Eric

Try http://nxtreporting.com/. It will show you all of your assets and your current total gains/losses. It also provides info on all available assets, and overall statistics for the Nxt ecosystem.

I appreciate your post. I bought XCP back in January and think that it is very smart and powerful. But I, too, have been very frustrated trying to use the GUI. It's a great back end, but is still waiting for someone to write a conventional front end, like Nxt has. I'm still a believer, and if your criticisms are used to inspire a new front end, this would add tremendous value to Counterparty and Bitcoin.

[PhantomPhreak]

PhantomPhreak - Yes, it seems like all those issues can be easily fixed with Counterparty. And yes, using BTC was part of the problem, but I only used BTC because I first tried to buy XCP (using BTC) at the market price and the order never completed, so after 3 hours I gave up and tried it using BTC instead.

Right. At the moment, all of the liquidity is with BTC, because that's what people go to first.

[BitcoinBudz]

Please  yield to the community voice about a new front end. I am spending 2 hours a day trying to teach people about how to use the system and why it is so confusing. I have had 2 people just give up and say to hell with it, very discouraging  . Most people have no clue what counterparty is either so a little bit of PR might help to.

[impulsecorp]

sparta_cuss - nxtreporting.com is exactly what I was suggesting, thanks. They should build that directly into the NXT wallet.

[cAPSLOCK]

I shudder to think how much I have spend on btc transaction fees on failed sales of xcp for btc.  Order cancel themselves especially mysteriously or the btc holders are logged out so the do not pay...  Meh.

[stereotype]

Please  yield to the community voice about a new front end. I am spending 2 hours a day trying to teach people about how to use the system and why it is so confusing. I have had 2 people just give up and say to hell with it, very discouraging  . Most people have no clue what counterparty is either so a little bit of PR might help to.

Thats sad to read, and will repeat itself again and again, until the recurring theme of confusion with use, is addressed.

@Devs. Genuine question.... when you first formulated your ideas with XCP, who were the type of people you saw happily clicking away on the finished platform?

Also, what Adam said about escrowing on the blockchain surely is a candidate for a 'killer app' scenario, if done right, and could represent a wide demographic of usage.  

[BldSwtTrs]

Additionally, my model has significantly lower startup costs than a comparable model that does not use Counterparty.

Could you please expand a little bit on that? What sort of costs Counterparty allow a startup to avoid?

My knowledge of what it takes to make a start up is weak.

[baddw]

I shudder to think how much I have spend on btc transaction fees on failed sales of xcp for btc.  Order cancel themselves especially mysteriously or the btc holders are logged out so the do not pay...  Meh.

Yeah, I agree that this is a problem.  Pissing away satoshis on mysteriously failed orders doesn't feel good.  I realize that the amounts involved are small, but multiply by X and they get bigger.

[sparta_cuss]

One of the reasons that there is not a rush of outside developers creating Counterparty add-ons is that the CP devs cannot offer bounties, like pre-mined coins can. They are not sitting on a stash themselves, and did not reserve such a horde for development. I think the lack of a pre-mine or IPO is a good thing, but at the moment it handicaps the development of an entire system around XCP. So how can this problem become a virtue?

One answer is Swarm. This is precisely the kind of situation that the kickstarter-like crowdfunding platform is made for. Unfortunately, Swarm won't be ready for awhile. Is it possible to create something shorter term that is custom-made for raising escrowed funds (to create bounties) that would encourage outside developers to create functionality for the Counterparty system? Could the CP devs do the escrow themselves, say, by creating an asset which anyone could buy? What if they created, say, asset CPGUI, with specific terms about what a GUI would require (code-wise), how the coders of the GUI would be paid, etc? How would buyers/holders of this asset get paid back?

Is any of this making sense, or are there logical/logistical problems with trying to fund development by issuing such an asset? Would the original CP devs welcome the work of outside developers?   

[jaybny]

from what I understand, there is nothing stopping the issuer from diluting assets on counterparty by issuing more and more. unlike an alt-chain, where the distribution schedule is built into the distributed protocol.  very confusing. Is there any docs comparing and contrasting counterparty assets vs stand alone alt-coins?

[baddw]

from what I understand, there is nothing stopping the issuer from diluting assets on counterparty by issuing more and more. unlike an alt-chain, where the distribution schedule is built into the distributed protocol.  very confusing. Is there any docs comparing and contrasting counterparty assets vs stand alone alt-coins?

An asset may be "locked", i.e., prevented from issuing any more units.  Everyone can see whether an asset is locked or not.  Of course people will be wary of assets that are unlocked.  In these cases, it will come down to a matter of trust in the asset issuer.  An asset such as LTBCOIN has good reasons for issuing more coins as they go along, and of course Adam Levine has a vested interest in avoiding any deviation from the issuance plan which he laid out in advance of the coin being created.

[mindtomatter]

One of the reasons that there is not a rush of outside developers creating Counterparty add-ons...

You may not see them yet, but this statement is very incorrect. 

[Matt Y]

Additionally, my model has significantly lower startup costs than a comparable model that does not use Counterparty.

Could you please expand a little bit on that? What sort of costs Counterparty allow a startup to avoid?

My knowledge of what it takes to make a start up is weak.

Because Counterparty escrows funds and I never have access to them, I don't have to worry about creating user account capability, cold storage, two factor authentication, none of that. I just have to broadcast feeds and display that information on a website, and that is significantly less complex than running a sportsbook. This is part of the reason why a standard vig at an online sportsbook is 5-10% and on BetXCP the commission is a flat 0.5%.