[ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread

[nakaone]

the development of this protocol is nothing but impressive - maybe it is really possible to put counterparty in the front of blockchain based finance

[xnova]

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[delulo]

Is it correct that someone that wants to bet with counterparty needs to trust the price feed that is supported by one person and that the outcome of the bet is executed automatically based on the provided feed?

Yes, that is correct. We are, however, working on implementing support for betting on the concensus of multiple, independent oracles, too.

Thanks for your answer.
What is an INDEPENDENT oracle? Sounds interesting but who is providing it?

I also had a similar question.

ESPN.com has some pretty reliable feeds when it comes to sports outcomes.. is it possible to use some central commercial authority to generate feeds? What about Wikipedia? -- oh wait, bad idea..

I can't actually access the feature using my native IP but will experiment in the future.

By 'independent', I meant independent from each other and independent from Countertparty.

To use ESPN feeds, someone currently has to translate that that data into the Counterparty broadcasts.

Say I want to bet on a football game. Are multiple parties gonna issue a feed that is supposed to be evidence for the same outcome/result? In the end I have to check who the feed broadcasters are and whether I trust them? If that is not so how does it work? 

[PhantomPhreak]

Is it correct that someone that wants to bet with counterparty needs to trust the price feed that is supported by one person and that the outcome of the bet is executed automatically based on the provided feed?

Yes, that is correct. We are, however, working on implementing support for betting on the concensus of multiple, independent oracles, too.

Thanks for your answer.
What is an INDEPENDENT oracle? Sounds interesting but who is providing it?

I also had a similar question.

ESPN.com has some pretty reliable feeds when it comes to sports outcomes.. is it possible to use some central commercial authority to generate feeds? What about Wikipedia? -- oh wait, bad idea..

I can't actually access the feature using my native IP but will experiment in the future.

By 'independent', I meant independent from each other and independent from Countertparty.

To use ESPN feeds, someone currently has to translate that that data into the Counterparty broadcasts.

Say I want to bet on a football game. Are multiple parties gonna issue a feed that is supposed to be evidence for the same outcome/result? In the end I have to check who the feed broadcasters are and whether I trust them? If that is not so how does it work? 

That's how it works, yes.

[delulo]

http://www.wired.com/2014/07/overstock-and-cryptocurrency/

"Overstock has already held extensive discussions with a company called CounterParty, which offers software that could help drive such a cryptosecurity..."

+1
This in deed is great news!

[delulo]

Is it correct that someone that wants to bet with counterparty needs to trust the price feed that is supported by one person and that the outcome of the bet is executed automatically based on the provided feed?

Yes, that is correct. We are, however, working on implementing support for betting on the concensus of multiple, independent oracles, too.

Thanks for your answer.
What is an INDEPENDENT oracle? Sounds interesting but who is providing it?

I also had a similar question.

ESPN.com has some pretty reliable feeds when it comes to sports outcomes.. is it possible to use some central commercial authority to generate feeds? What about Wikipedia? -- oh wait, bad idea..

I can't actually access the feature using my native IP but will experiment in the future.

By 'independent', I meant independent from each other and independent from Countertparty.

To use ESPN feeds, someone currently has to translate that that data into the Counterparty broadcasts.

Say I want to bet on a football game. Are multiple parties gonna issue a feed that is supposed to be evidence for the same outcome/result? In the end I have to check who the feed broadcasters are and whether I trust them? If that is not so how does it work?  

That's how it works, yes.

Just want to be clear on this, because there were a few questions in my last post:
1) You confirmed that I have to check who the feed broadcasters are and whether I want to trust them?
2) Remaining question: How is it beneficial then to have multiple feeds for the same questionable outcome?

[profitofthegods]

http://www.wired.com/2014/07/overstock-and-cryptocurrency/

"Overstock has already held extensive discussions with a company called CounterParty, which offers software that could help drive such a cryptosecurity..."

That's fantastic, very impressive. Counterparty is really looking to be hands and shoulders above any other platform for this kind of thing.

Bit of a newb question here: since these IPOs use Bitcoin rather than XCP, is betting considered to be the primary use case for XCP or are there any other circumstances in which you see people using it? I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of what drives the value of XCP.

[PhantomPhreak]

Is it correct that someone that wants to bet with counterparty needs to trust the price feed that is supported by one person and that the outcome of the bet is executed automatically based on the provided feed?

Yes, that is correct. We are, however, working on implementing support for betting on the concensus of multiple, independent oracles, too.

Thanks for your answer.
What is an INDEPENDENT oracle? Sounds interesting but who is providing it?

I also had a similar question.

ESPN.com has some pretty reliable feeds when it comes to sports outcomes.. is it possible to use some central commercial authority to generate feeds? What about Wikipedia? -- oh wait, bad idea..

I can't actually access the feature using my native IP but will experiment in the future.

By 'independent', I meant independent from each other and independent from Countertparty.

To use ESPN feeds, someone currently has to translate that that data into the Counterparty broadcasts.

Say I want to bet on a football game. Are multiple parties gonna issue a feed that is supposed to be evidence for the same outcome/result? In the end I have to check who the feed broadcasters are and whether I trust them? If that is not so how does it work?  

That's how it works, yes.

Just want to be clear on this, because there were a few questions in my last post:
1) You confirmed that I have to check who the feed broadcasters are and whether I want to trust them?
2) Remaining question: How is it beneficial then to have multiple feeds for the same questionable outcome?

1) Yep.

2) That's hard to say. If the feed operator is a well-established entity (like Bloomberg, CoinDesk, etc.), there isn't much advantage.

[delulo]

Let me play the dev. advocate a bit...

What motivation would a trusted entity like Bloomberg have to provide a feed for Counterparty? Are they significantly paid? If their feed get corrupted they could loose a lot of reputation.

In case another party replicates the Bloomberg feed and not Bloomberg itself can be held responsible for it, then a Counterparty user would have to trust the party that provides the feed and not Bloomberg. Could Bloomberg sign its feed which then would be provable within Counterparty so that Bloomberg would not have to broadcast it itself?  

[PhantomPhreak]

http://www.wired.com/2014/07/overstock-and-cryptocurrency/

"Overstock has already held extensive discussions with a company called CounterParty, which offers software that could help drive such a cryptosecurity..."

That's fantastic, very impressive. Counterparty is really looking to be hands and shoulders above any other platform for this kind of thing.

Bit of a newb question here: since these IPOs use Bitcoin rather than XCP, is betting considered to be the primary use case for XCP or are there any other circumstances in which you see people using it? I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of what drives the value of XCP.

The value of XCP derives from three things: 1) its mandatory usage in other functionality (such as all derivatives) and 2) its superiority to BTC with trading and crowdsales (it's much faster) and 3) it represents stake in the protocol (for future protocol changes, etc.).

[PhantomPhreak]

Let me play the dev. advocate a bit...

What motivation would a trusted entity like Bloomberg have to provide a feed for Counterparty? Are they significantly paid? If their feed get corrupted they could loose a lot of reputation.

In case another party replicates the Bloomberg feed and not Bloomberg itself can be held responsible for it, then a Counterparty user would have to trust the party that provides the feed and not Bloomberg. Could Bloomberg sign its feed which then would be provable within Counterparty so that Bloomberg would not have to broadcast it itself?  

Feed operators can charge for the service. Bloomberg already makes a lot of money, but the cost of publishing a feed is also effectively zero.

Yes, Bloomberg could sign its feed, and that could be reproduced trustlessly and for free.

[delulo]

http://www.wired.com/2014/07/overstock-and-cryptocurrency/

"Overstock has already held extensive discussions with a company called CounterParty, which offers software that could help drive such a cryptosecurity..."

That's fantastic, very impressive. Counterparty is really looking to be hands and shoulders above any other platform for this kind of thing.

Bit of a newb question here: since these IPOs use Bitcoin rather than XCP, is betting considered to be the primary use case for XCP or are there any other circumstances in which you see people using it? I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of what drives the value of XCP.

Correct me if I am wrong. I not even read the wired article. But I strongly guess that Overstock does not want to do an IPO over Counterparty. They just want to "second-issue" their existing shares. Any that wants to correct me on that?  

[delulo]

Let me play the dev. advocate a bit...

What motivation would a trusted entity like Bloomberg have to provide a feed for Counterparty? Are they significantly paid? If their feed get corrupted they could loose a lot of reputation.

In case another party replicates the Bloomberg feed and not Bloomberg itself can be held responsible for it, then a Counterparty user would have to trust the party that provides the feed and not Bloomberg. Could Bloomberg sign its feed which then would be provable within Counterparty so that Bloomberg would not have to broadcast it itself?  

Feed operators can charge for the service. Bloomberg already makes a lot of money, but the cost of publishing a feed is also effectively zero.

Yes, Bloomberg could sign its feed, and that could be reproduced trustlessly and for free.

I think we boiled it down to a common understanding.

[profitofthegods]

 

The value of XCP derives from three things: 1) its mandatory usage in other functionality (such as all derivatives) and 2) its superiority to BTC with trading and crowdsales (it's much faster) and 3) it represents stake in the protocol (for future protocol changes, etc.).

Thanks, but I have more questions  . What does representing a stake in the protocol mean? And is there a link or something about derivatives for me to read up on?

[Anotheranonlol]

 

The value of XCP derives from three things: 1) its mandatory usage in other functionality (such as all derivatives) and 2) its superiority to BTC with trading and crowdsales (it's much faster) and 3) it represents stake in the protocol (for future protocol changes, etc.).

Thanks, but I have more questions  . What does representing a stake in the protocol mean? And is there a link or something about derivatives for me to read up on?

Bitcoin itself is a technology, a protocol, the BTC token essentially is a stake (share) in that protocol. Just like owning shares in Apple allows you to bank on the success of apple, owning a BTC 'share' of bitcoin allows you to bank on the success of Bitcoin.

You have 21 million BTC that will ever be distributed via the minting/mining process, so owning 1 BTC gives you a 1/21,000,000 stake. Your proportional stake will be inflated gradually until sometime roughly near 2140 when emission ends.

CounterParty is also a protocol - XCP is the underlying token that gives you a share in the protocol. there are a fixed number of roughly 2.6 million XCP that had already been 'minted' via the Initial proof-of-burn, therefore owning 1 XCP gives you a stake of 1/2,649,791 that will never be inflated. (In fact- the opposite is true as XCP will be destroyed during things like asset issuance- and just from a cursory check seems to be about 8615 XCP destroyed already)

You can find more info on derivatives here and here

[justbc]

What's up with the distributed exchange? I've been trying to make trades last night and today and have been hugely frustrated. Issues I'm encountering:

• Orders don't match, even when made at market price.
• Matched or partially matched orders don't pay out the purchased security.
• Cancelled orders don't return the indicated funds.

What is up with this? Is there any expectation that this thing actually works? Very disheartening.

[profitofthegods]

Bitcoin itself is a technology, a protocol, the BTC token essentially is a stake (share) in that protocol. Just like owning shares in Apple allows you to bank on the success of apple, owning a BTC 'share' of bitcoin allows you to bank on the success of Bitcoin.

You have 21 million BTC that will ever be distributed via the minting/mining process, so owning 1 BTC gives you a 1/21,000000 stake. Your stake will be inflated gradually until sometime roughly near 2140 when emission ends.

CounterParty is also a protocol - XCP is the underlying token that gives you a share in the protocol. there are a fixed number of roughly 2.6 million XCP (2,649,791 to be exact) that had already been 'minted' via the Initial proof-of-burn, therefore your stake will never be inflated. (In fact- the opposite is true as XCP will be destroyed during things like asset issuance)

You can find more info on derivatives here

Thanks. I actually meant Counterparty derivatives rather than derivatives in general - or do you use the term to refer to any 'token' on counterparty? I wouldn't think of the IPOs and other assets and stuff I see on Counterparty as derivatives because normally something like a stock, for example, is not a derivative (I don't think) - it is only if you create options or shorts or something based on that stock that it becomes a derivative.

[PhantomPhreak]

What's up with the distributed exchange? I've been trying to make trades last night and today and have been hugely frustrated. Issues I'm encountering:

• Orders don't match, even when made at market price.
• Matched or partially matched orders don't pay out the purchased security.
• Cancelled orders don't return the indicated funds.

What is up with this? Is there any expectation that this thing actually works? Very disheartening.

I'm sorry to hear that your experience using Counterparty wasn't very good. It seems to me that you're probably misintepreting what's happening on the exchange. If you are purchasing an asset with BTC, it takes a while for the order to settle, and you can't cancel orders while you are waiting. This is a fundamental limitation due to Bitcoin's design. For faster, simpler orders, try using XCP instead.

[justbc]

I have XCP and I'm trying to buy BTC.

Due to the lag in settlement is the market book actually not an indication of what the current offers are?

[PhantomPhreak]

I have XCP and I'm trying to buy BTC.

Due to the lag in settlement is the market book actually not an indication of what the current offers are?

That's not it. Rather, all transactions involving BTC take a long time to settle, and are somewhat unreliable still (because the person selling BTC has to stay logged in to Counterwallet for the trade to go through).