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Author Topic: Gavin will visit the Council on Foreign Relations  (Read 54974 times)
Carlton Banks
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January 14, 2014, 05:15:27 PM
 #121

The most effective way to sabotage Bitcoin is to allow critical portions of the codebase to bitrot and block or delay critical improvements such that an alternative that is more palatable to the establishment would appear artificially viable by comparison.

Did you know, for example, that parts of the script validating code relies on undefined compiler behaviour that effectively makes gcc-specific quirks part of the Bitcoin protocol?

Instead of this being treated as an important bug that should be fixed it's just used an an example of why there shouldn't be diversity in implementations. After a while bugs like that start looking less accidental and more weaponized.

There's at least one good reason to leave it the way it is for a time: keeping the block creating nodes (i.e. miners) on standard code (file under "critical piece of code which a lot of money is tied up in"). Long term stability is important to this system, and the passage of time will do alot to make sure that different miners on different implementations can happily contribute blocks to the same chain. The better that all developers comprehend the system, both for the reference client and any re-implementation, the less likely we are to deal with the mild cataclysm of system-wide block rollbacks. If that means monopolising block creating for a while, then it's possibly not such a bad thing. I'd prefer that it weren't like this, but we have highly capable people working from both sides of the gulf, I've no doubt that the situation is as good as can be reasonably expected (for now).  

And we know that creating a competing reference implementation is more than possible, the resources and are there to make it work, and any number of scenarios where core code is changed could provide the incentives. If the core-developers forced a revolt, then I'm pretty sure some significant minds would be concentrated to the task (including a possible off-shoot of the core team). I'm also pretty sure how aware all concerned are of this type of scenario in advance (especially capable coders with large amounts of coin who disagree with any design decisions. And you can expect that demographic to continue to grow, they're best placed to understand the value of BTC, after all).

It's also kind of funny that when you collect quotes from the core dev team you find that Bitcoin inhabits a state of superposition between two states: it's simultaneously "just an experiment" and also a "critical piece of code which a lot of money is tied up in" depending on whether you're asking for quality accountability or asking for innovation.

Well, they are (core-devs) doing an awkward high-wire act. They're all publicly known, they didn't consider the relevance of protecting their identities to the same extent that Satoshi did. So handling the entire project overall (PR inclusive) must be a daunting task. It's difficult not to contradict yourself when trying to address independently non-discrete problems from a shared domain.

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January 14, 2014, 05:39:09 PM
 #122

Why does the Bitcoin Foundation want to suck on regulation's dick so bad?

Our developers are turning into regulation puppets by mixing in with the politics.

You forgot to add the 'baited with $1000 BTC' part. Then multiply that by the 10 BTC/day one would make with a 60 ghash asic and a 3 million difficulty.

Lest we forget, the great asic easymine of 2013.

 

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January 14, 2014, 06:27:14 PM
 #123

There's at least one good reason to leave it the way it is for a time: keeping the block creating nodes (i.e. miners) on standard code (file under "critical piece of code which a lot of money is tied up in"). Long term stability is important to this system, and the passage of time will do alot to make sure that different miners on different implementations can happily contribute blocks to the same chain. The better that all developers comprehend the system, both for the reference client and any re-implementation, the less likely we are to deal with the mild cataclysm of system-wide block rollbacks. If that means monopolising block creating for a while, then it's possibly not such a bad thing. I'd prefer that it weren't like this, but we have highly capable people working from both sides of the gulf, I've no doubt that the situation is as good as can be reasonably expected (for now).
tl;dr: Software engineering and project planning is hard and sometimes also boring so nobody wants to do it.
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January 14, 2014, 06:37:50 PM
 #124

On a different subject, I would have a bit more respect for Gavin if he just said "My presentation, the Q&A, and any conversations I have will be public record.  Period.  Else go piss up a rope."

Clearly this is not how Gavin rolls as evidenced by the structure and methods of the Bitcoin Foundation, and that is a major part of the reason that I do not support Gavin or the Bitcoin Foundation.

I suspect that the entire Bitcoin project is in danger of losing what support it has among the more radical of the 'open' group of thinkers.
A preferable scenario would be for Bitcoin Foundation and the reference client to loose support while the rest of the project continues on without it.

A better way of putting it would be to retire the reference implementation as a prototype that has served its purpose, once a heterogeneous mix of two or three clean slate implantations are ready to replace it.

+this

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January 14, 2014, 06:43:40 PM
 #125




I do not see how sabotaging bitcoin itself could possibly work, and anyone who believes otherwise is underestimating the intelligence of this class of people who they dislike/fear so much.

Gavin is one of these people.

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Carlton Banks
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January 14, 2014, 07:12:20 PM
 #126




I do not see how sabotaging bitcoin itself could possibly work, and anyone who believes otherwise is underestimating the intelligence of this class of people who they dislike/fear so much.

Gavin is one of these people.

I think you misunderstood what I meant, I was referring to the big suits at the Council for Foreign Relations. Gavin isn't one of those people, that's why he's the one being invited, and not the one doing the inviting.

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January 14, 2014, 07:14:22 PM
 #127

As Andreas pointed out first one on the blacklist would be Wikileaks, and last would be HSBC (money laundering inc.). Wondering what the CFR has to say about that.

If they ask about problems with money laundering or drugs ask them what they're doing about the problem with banks laundering drug money. Simple.

Don’t answer with a question. Current and proposed legislation for banks is equally applicable to Bitcoin, in fact Bitcoin offers additional tools for law enforcement through the blockchain these tools are not available from the existing banking & finance industry.


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freedomno1
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January 14, 2014, 08:16:08 PM
 #128

Has anybody thought that the Gavin that goes in to the CFR lair might not be the Gavin that comes out?  Grin

Robo Gavin now able to operate on 2 Quantum Bits a second XD

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January 14, 2014, 08:25:12 PM
 #129

Good news.  Smiley

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January 14, 2014, 08:32:13 PM
 #130

Has anybody thought that the Gavin that goes in to the CFR lair might not be the Gavin that comes out?  Grin

Robo Gavin now able to operate on 2 Quantum Bits a second XD

It might be like a Manchurian Candidate situation lol.
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January 14, 2014, 08:43:07 PM
 #131


Edit: We have got a bit off topic. I personally do not mind Gavin going to the meeting. I find it interesting that they want to talk with him. However I do find it a bit odd that the Bitcoin Foundation is a police service. Pretty shocked honestly and wonder if that was their goal the whole time. Seems they want control control control in every way.

I find it infuriating and insulting that the Bitcoin Foundation is all down with fight the crime of 'child exploitation', but has not done jack shit to find 'TradeFortress' who paid them.  Child exploitation is a heinous crime and I'd love to see all guilty parties castrated.  Literally.  All ten of them plus the dozens who are employed by the US as mercenaries.  It, like 'terrorism', is simply not a large problem but are invariably used just to get a foot in the door.  Scum like TF abound and they are definitely the low hanging fruit in terms of fighting problems in the economy.

As for presenting at the CFR I'm all for it, but it should be done from a reasonably well deserved position of strength.  It should be easy and completely justifiable to say "Look, Bitcoin derives it's strength from being an open project that the community supports, and that support comes, in part, from transparency.  We don't do private opaque meetings."  Unfortunately the Bitcoin Foundation threw that out the window from pretty much day one.

There are a lot of good reasons to not grovel before 'the powers that be' and it has nothing to do with some sort of machismo.  It has to do with principle and mechanics because operationally it will be easier to do the right thing by being polite and accommodating of reasonable requests, but also firm, separate, and operating with a defensive posture.



Agreed.

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January 14, 2014, 08:49:14 PM
 #132

I'm usually pretty careful not to call people names.  Did I screw up?

You didn't mean to, but you did use a pretty nasty term: conspiracy theories. It's a subconscious reaction to cognitive dissonance. We've been programmed to label out-of-the-box thinking as "conspiracy theory," a label which out-of-the-box thinkers rightly dislike.

Quote
I DO think there are lots of crazy conspiracy theories. I might even believe some of them myself, but that doesn't make me crazy (just "almost certainly wrong.").

Being "crazy" is the norm in nature. The opposite behavior is conforming. If you are afraid of being labeled "crazy," then you are conforming.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - J. Krishnamurti

Like a society in which over 1 billion people are starving because they don't have "money" to "pay" for food.

Quote
RE: child exploitation:  Good example.  We all agree that child exploitation is BAD, right?

We might disagree about what (if anything) we should DO about it, but isn't it worth discussing whether or not there is something we MIGHT do about it?  For example, maybe offering mostly-anonymous bounties to reward anybody who gives information that leads to the arrest and conviction of people abusing children for profit or pleasure is a good idea.  Maybe those bounties could be paid in Bitcoin.

It's a well-meaning idea in-and-of-itself, but that will not be the end result, as other posters pointed out. As stated in the Wired article quite openly, the end goal is to have "controls in place to regulate [digital currencies] like any other form of money."

Quote
Maybe that is a terrible idea that will have awful consequences, but instead of rational discussion there's a knee-jerk GOVERNMENT BAD! that, in my humble opinion, is counter-productive to making the world a better place.

I think it's because many of us realize (i.e. have come to the understanding) that the "government's" intention never has anything to do with the public good. Pedophilia, terrorism, communism, etc are boogeymen, tools they use to increase their level of control (or "power").

Larken Rose is the most powerful voice I have found to help common sense thinkers like myself (and, I suspect, yourself) see things clearly, to understand what is, rather than what we were given to understand throughout our lives. Listening to Larken inevitably shifts one's perspective on the concepts of government and authority. Most of what he says is so common-sensical that it seems illogical to disagree.

Quote
I don't like people assuming that they know what I'm thinking, or assume that because I'm willing to talk to people that I agree with those people, or assume that because I'm pragmatic about regulation I "want regulation."  For the record:  I'm mostly libertarian, I think we'd be just fine if we replaced 99.911% of regulations with voluntary, private, market-based solutions. But that ain't gonna happen any time soon.

I don't understand why you have that attitude ("ain't gonna happen any time soon"). I understand you take a conservative approach and want to remain very humble about what Bitcoin means, but if you're closed to the idea of Bitcoin bringing a revolutionary level of change, then you might unwittingly end up working for the "enemy," so to speak.

Cryptocurrencies are the contender to replace the old, obsolete economic system that no longer serves mankind. Here is the best exposition I've found on how the economic system actually works, completely "conspiracy free":

http://www.peakprosperity.com/crashcourse

This explains in precise detail why the economic system is mathematically doomed to collapse/fail. I think crypto enthusiasts will find Chris Martenson's Crash Course most fascinating.

Gavin, you knew Satoshi better than most. What do you think was Satoshi's intention all along? The Genesis Block suggests he believed the current economic system will eventually collapse (then again, many people did at the time and no longer do). The fact that he decided to silently vanish would also suggest that he sees something very, very big coming from his creation. A creation that he left in your hands. (“I’ve moved on to other things. It’s in good hands with Gavin and everyone.”)

I think all of us in the cryptocurrency community appreciate you greatly, Gavin, in the same way that we appreciate Satoshi and the other founders/developers. Personally, I do not doubt for a moment your integrity and motives.

But to make the right decisions, one has to have as much relevant information as possible. Dismissing out-of-the-imposed-box thinking as "conspiracy theory" (subconscious term for "impossible, too radical to be true") doesn't help make the world a better place. It does quite the opposite.

I would like to recommend a few very important educational videos for all:

Related to the current (old, obsolete, decrepit, primitive) system:

Chris Martenson's economics crash course - This explains in precise detail why the economic system is mathematically doomed to collapse/fail. I think crypto enthusiasts will find Chris Martenson's Crash Course most fascinating.

Money as Debt (part 1, part 2, part 3) - How is money created? If you can't give a precise answer to this question, watch these important educational videos.

Zeitgeist Addendum - An exposition of the declining economic system and its implications on poverty, wars, inefficiency, unsustainability, sub-optimal products, etc. Explores the idea of a resource-based economy, a fundamentally different, much more logical (hence utopian) alternative, that at the least serves to show how obvious it is that we could do much better. Further info and ideas explored in the sequel Zeitgeist: Moving Forward.

The Money Masters (1996) - The history of money, central banking, and the international bankers. The Rothschild quote posted above (“Give me control over a nation’s currency and I care not who makes its laws.”) is not just some figure of speech.


Related to the paradigm-shifting emergence of decentralized cryptocurrencies:

The True Value of Bitcoin: What You Really Need To Know - Stefan Molyneux, host of Freedomain Radio, the largest philosophy talk show in the world, explains some of the implications of the invention of cryptocurrencies, such as how they render obsolete the entire financial services sector (which outrageously make up ~8% of GDP!).

Videos by Andreas Antonopoulos such as this one: Most people are yet to understand how disruptive this technology is

Why Bitcoin May Be More Disruptive than the Internet - "Bitcoin is one of the most disruptive inventions in our lifetime. To understand this, we have to take a brief look at monetary history and how the money systems in place today are full of third party risk."

And this unrelated one for your amusement: I Think I Know Who Satoshi Is - Seems like the most likely candidate of those proposed so far.

(A note for the inevitable nay-sayers: One should not "believe" anything these videos say because they say so. They are helpful in increasing one's perspective. Believe only your sense of logic and intuition. Don't assume anything is true, whether new information or existing beliefs you assumed to be true.)




My opinion is that we will get to see a cryptocurrency-ubiquitous world monetary system, the concept is too powerful to ever be restrained. If you've spent enough time thinking all the consequences through, you should see that.

+1!

I think it is critical to recognize the dangerous psychology of groups such as the CFR and the individuals of whom they are comprised.

The Book 'Political Ponerology' explains it well.  As sobering and nasty as this reality may be, we the masses have to figure out a way to protect ourselves / the planet from the present ultra elite, which is devoid of a capacity for compassion / caring and comes from a position of ultra-exceptionalism.

+1!

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January 14, 2014, 08:55:11 PM
 #133

Bitcoin would be better off without the TBF or a listed hierarchy among the devs. Having a central point of communication makes the uninitiated believe Bitcoin is owned by TBF. One organization and one developer should not continually speak for all of the developers and users of Bitcoin. I hope you're telling these groups you're meeting with that when you implement a change the majority of users disagree with Bitcoin will fork and move away from your control. Your chain will become the MintChip of the US government.

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January 14, 2014, 09:20:54 PM
 #134

Will Gavin tell the elites THE truth?

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January 14, 2014, 09:24:16 PM
 #135

Will Gavin tell the elites THE truth?


what is that truth of yours exactly ?
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January 14, 2014, 09:49:28 PM
Last edit: January 14, 2014, 10:20:57 PM by Bitware
 #136

IMO the result will be how it always is with the CFR and who they go after for subversion... if Bitcoin developers "play ball" then they will be enriched beyond their wildest dreams and have heaps of praise, influence and power bestowed upon them.

Also in return for selling us all out and selling your souls to the CFR and the worlds elite,they will "enable" easier BTC<->Fiat conversions and facilitate interaction with existing systems.

... all combined, making their Bitcoins worth much more scratch.

Have any of you ever really wondered why every bank that exists terminates accounts of Bitcoin businesses?
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January 14, 2014, 09:54:05 PM
 #137




I do not see how sabotaging bitcoin itself could possibly work, and anyone who believes otherwise is underestimating the intelligence of this class of people who they dislike/fear so much.

Gavin is one of these people.

I think you misunderstood what I meant, I was referring to the big suits at the Council for Foreign Relations. Gavin isn't one of those people, that's why he's the one being invited, and not the one doing the inviting.

Yes, yes he is one of those people... or wants to be one very badly,
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January 14, 2014, 10:01:47 PM
 #138

Will Gavin tell the elites THE truth?


what is that truth of yours exactly ?
Not political not economic, just a technical explanation of how it works, and how it can be used do things like public records and smart property or contacts.  

Let the observe see allocations.

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January 14, 2014, 10:18:38 PM
 #139

Will Gavin tell the elites THE truth?


what is that truth of yours exactly ?
Not political not economic, just a technical explanation of how it works, and how it can be used do things like public records and smart property or contacts.  

Let the observe see allocations.

Just a technical explanation on the blockchain in the nation’s foreign policy discourse Huh

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January 14, 2014, 10:25:20 PM
Last edit: January 14, 2014, 11:25:32 PM by Bitware
 #140

Gavin, the conspiracies within the CFR are not theories...


Quote
"The New World Order will have to be built from the bottom up rather than from the top down...but in the end run around national sovereignty eroding it piece by piece will accomplish much more than the old fashioned frontal assault."
- Richard Gardner CFR member writing in the April 1974 - CFR's journal Foreign Affairs.


Quote
"We are not going to achieve a new world order without paying for it in blood as well as in words and money."
- Arthur Schlesinger Jr. - Foreign Affairs (July/August 1995)


Quote
"We are grateful to the Washington Post the New York TimesTime magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected the promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world-government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the National auto-determination practiced in past centuries"
- David Rockefeller Member CFR


Quote
"The powers of financial capitalism had (a) far-reaching aim nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel Switzerland a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans to manipulate foreign exchanges to influence the level of economic activity in the country and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley member of Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) mentor to Bill Clinton quote from "Tragedy and Hope" 1966


Quote
"The sovereignty fetish is still so strong in the public mind that there would appear to be little chance of winning popular assent to American membership in anything approaching a super-state organization. Much will depend on the kind of approach which is used in further popular education."
- 1944 Council on Foreign Relations Report


Quote
"Let us face reality. The framers (of the Constitution) have simply been too shrewd for us. They have outwitted us. They designed separate institutions that cannot be unified by mechanical linkages frail bridges(or) tinkering. If we are to turn the founders upside down... we must directly confront the Constitutional structure they erected."
- James MacGregor Burns Council on Foreign Relations member 1984


Quote
"The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) is the American Branch of a society which originated in England... (and) ...believes national boundaries should be obliterated and one-world rule established."
- Carroll Quigley member of Council on Foreign Relations (CFR)mentor to Bill Clinton


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