Price of gold manipulation

[zeetubes]

Also, what possible reason could china have for melting the gold down into 1 KG bars which it does according to some info. gold sellers are presenting it again in a way that they will try to back their currency by gold...

Most gold bars are 99% pure. China likes 99.9% pure and their standard is 1kg bars.

[1714713046]

1714713046

[Nortan12rx]

yes. fed manipulation of gold..

[knightcoin]

Also, what possible reason could china have for melting the gold down into 1 KG bars which it does according to some info. gold sellers are presenting it again in a way that they will try to back their currency by gold...

Most gold bars are 99% pure. China likes 99.9% pure and their standard is 1kg bars.

As a "electronic miner" I always have a mixed feelings about gold ... since I lost two friends in "Bald Mountain" ... a 80's "Rush Gold" in Amazon Rain Florets. Gold "in natura" worth almost noting .. gold must be purified and get a certificate from a recognized authority to have a international value.       

[Mikcik]

Also, what possible reason could china have for melting the gold down into 1 KG bars which it does according to some info. gold sellers are presenting it again in a way that they will try to back their currency by gold...

Most gold bars are 99% pure. China likes 99.9% pure and their standard is 1kg bars.

oh... that makes sense... so the 1 kg bars are and always were standard in china? whys that? i think the 12,5 kg bars make more sense if you wanna just hold gold as reserves...?

But if you are telling the truth than thats just another reason why not to belive the gold sellers.

[zeetubes]

This is a slightly different take on the issue by Jim Richards. There are actually two or three good points he makes.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/514449-james-rickards-china-planning-to-displace-dollar/3/

[AlexGR]

So what do you think? I would love to belive that the GOLD is really manipulated, and i would love the see its price to sky-rocket, but there are serious problems with this claims...
Whats your claim on this?

It's not a matter of belief. When you have physical shortages and the price is going down despite the extreme demand, there is a fundamental disconnect between demand and supply which the price should reflect.

The law of supply and demand cannot really be broken - otherwise there would be no stock exchange, no trading market, no forex, no nothing. If we are experiencing reverse results it is only because a certain market is under manipulation.

Whats true, whats possible, and whats maybe false...:

1) FED germany gold repatriation problems. This is 99,9999% true, two options: a) FED doesnt have to gold b) FED has the gold but doesnt want it give back and expect some BIG event in the near future, following which it will publicly tell that it will keep the gold of other nations. This problem is real. On the other hand FED can somehow handle this fraud, return it all to germany, the fraud even obvious to some, will never be really exposed and will continue for several years again...

German gold is a story that is blown out of proportion. No-one, and I mean no-one, is indicating the obvious:

If Germany really wanted to hold physical gold, what would stop them from buying tons of gold out from the open market, just like the asians and middle-easterns do? Are they somehow barred from doing that? No. With paper price being low, all they'd have to do is order and then ...stand for delivery. Not a thousand tons, but gradually building their position a few hundred tons at a time, instead of waiting for US delivery.

If the price goes up through this demand it's not something that should bother them because in this way their gold which is locked up by the US is also increasing in value. In this way they can cash-settle it with the Americans for high. Like buying low for what I can buy right now, physically, and then cash settling high for what the other didn't actually deliver to me. And if, by any chance, Americans deliver it, then all the better because the price will spike even more due to extreme physical shortages on their side.

The whole story of German gold is like totally overseeing the fact that americans are not the only source where Germany can find physical gold. They can stockpile metal if they want and then say to the americans, ok since you are having problems with delivering the gold, we'll accept a cash settlement (at the elevated prices due to the physical squeezing it).

Imagine this scenario: You have an ounce of gold registered in a certain custodian and you ask for delivery. He says he can deliver it to you in 5 years, or you can cash settle. Why would you wait 5 years instead of buying from somewhere else?

[NanoAkron]

If Germany really wanted to hold physical gold, what would stop them from buying tons of gold out from the open market, just like the asians and middle-easterns do? Are they somehow barred from doing that? No. With paper price being low, all they'd have to do is order and then ...stand for delivery. Not a thousand tons, but gradually building their position a few hundred tons at a time, instead of waiting for US delivery.

The whole story of German gold is like totally overseeing the fact that americans are not the only source where Germany can find physical gold. They can stockpile metal if they want and then say to the americans, ok since you are having problems with delivering the gold, we'll accept a cash settlement (at the elevated prices due to the physical squeezing it).

So if you owe me a car but refuse to give me it, I should just go out and buy another one?

Get a clue: The US is holding Germany's gold. Germany is not buying it from them, they're asking for it back.

[Dr Bloggood]

This is a slightly different take on the issue by Jim Richards. There are actually two or three good points he makes.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/514449-james-rickards-china-planning-to-displace-dollar/3/

A good read. He makes interesting points about the Yuan and special drawing rights. I don't really understand though why you need bonds for establishment of a reserve currency. Can somebody explain this?

[Dr Bloggood]

German gold is a story that is blown out of proportion. No-one, and I mean no-one, is indicating the obvious:

If Germany really wanted to hold physical gold, what would stop them from buying tons of gold out from the open market, just like the asians and middle-easterns do? Are they somehow barred from doing that? No. With paper price being low, all they'd have to do is order and then ...stand for delivery. Not a thousand tons, but gradually building their position a few hundred tons at a time, instead of waiting for US delivery.

If the price goes up through this demand it's not something that should bother them because in this way their gold which is locked up by the US is also increasing in value. In this way they can cash-settle it with the Americans for high. Like buying low for what I can buy right now, physically, and then cash settling high for what the other didn't actually deliver to me. And if, by any chance, Americans deliver it, then all the better because the price will spike even more due to extreme physical shortages on their side.

The whole story of German gold is like totally overseeing the fact that americans are not the only source where Germany can find physical gold. They can stockpile metal if they want and then say to the americans, ok since you are having problems with delivering the gold, we'll accept a cash settlement (at the elevated prices due to the physical squeezing it).

Imagine this scenario: You have an ounce of gold registered in a certain custodian and you ask for delivery. He says he can deliver it to you in 5 years, or you can cash settle. Why would you wait 5 years instead of buying from somewhere else?

You are making an interesting point.

But DID the US offer to settle in cash? I guess they didn't and can't because:

1. It would be expensive

2. More importantly, it would look incredibly stupid in front of the whole world to default on Germany's gold. It would be like a statement in big letters: "Gold supplies of the US and the West are gone. Run and grab all the gold you can, our economy is done with!" System comes apart, game over.

No way they could afford that, and Germany doesn't want that to happen either.

[Dr Bloggood]

If Germany really wanted to hold physical gold, what would stop them from buying tons of gold out from the open market, just like the asians and middle-easterns do? Are they somehow barred from doing that? No. With paper price being low, all they'd have to do is order and then ...stand for delivery. Not a thousand tons, but gradually building their position a few hundred tons at a time, instead of waiting for US delivery.

The whole story of German gold is like totally overseeing the fact that americans are not the only source where Germany can find physical gold. They can stockpile metal if they want and then say to the americans, ok since you are having problems with delivering the gold, we'll accept a cash settlement (at the elevated prices due to the physical squeezing it).

So if you owe me a car but refuse to give me it, I should just go out and buy another one?

No. He is saying they should settle in cash instead of gold and go out with that cash to buy gold on the open market.

[NanoAkron]

If Germany really wanted to hold physical gold, what would stop them from buying tons of gold out from the open market, just like the asians and middle-easterns do? Are they somehow barred from doing that? No. With paper price being low, all they'd have to do is order and then ...stand for delivery. Not a thousand tons, but gradually building their position a few hundred tons at a time, instead of waiting for US delivery.

The whole story of German gold is like totally overseeing the fact that americans are not the only source where Germany can find physical gold. They can stockpile metal if they want and then say to the americans, ok since you are having problems with delivering the gold, we'll accept a cash settlement (at the elevated prices due to the physical squeezing it).

So if you owe me a car but refuse to give me it, I should just go out and buy another one?

No. He is saying they should settle in cash instead of gold and go out with that cash to buy gold on the open market.

Which is one of the stupidest suggestions I've ever heard. Dr Bloggood makes a set of very good points as to why.

- How many $ would Germany expect for 600 tonnes of gold? Hundreds of billions. But they want the gold because they fundamentally believe those dollars are actually worthless.
- How would those $ be delivered? Would they just be conjured out of thin air as more fiat? Shuffle a few numbers around a spreadsheet which can suddenly be wiped out with various financier tricks.
- How much less would it be worth once delivered because of inflation? Tens of millions per DAY.
- Where would they then find 600 tonnes of gold for sale for cash?
- What is the guarantee that this new gold could and would actually be delivered?

Just stupid. The US owes Germany 600 tonnes of gold, and is probably going to GOX the whole deal.

[AlexGR]

If Germany really wanted to hold physical gold, what would stop them from buying tons of gold out from the open market, just like the asians and middle-easterns do? Are they somehow barred from doing that? No. With paper price being low, all they'd have to do is order and then ...stand for delivery. Not a thousand tons, but gradually building their position a few hundred tons at a time, instead of waiting for US delivery.

The whole story of German gold is like totally overseeing the fact that americans are not the only source where Germany can find physical gold. They can stockpile metal if they want and then say to the americans, ok since you are having problems with delivering the gold, we'll accept a cash settlement (at the elevated prices due to the physical squeezing it).

So if you owe me a car but refuse to give me it, I should just go out and buy another one?

Get a clue: The US is holding Germany's gold. Germany is not buying it from them, they're asking for it back.

If I owe you a car but refuse to give it to you and you can't make me give it to you, will you walk 30 miles to your job every day? You'll have to find a solution to the problem instead of passively waiting for americans to default on their gold obligations - as they've done 40+ years ago.

[AlexGR]

1. It would be expensive

2. More importantly, it would look incredibly stupid in front of the whole world to default on Germany's gold. It would be like a statement in big letters: "Gold supplies of the US and the West are gone. Run and grab all the gold you can, our economy is done with!" System comes apart, game over.

No way they could afford that, and Germany doesn't want that to happen either.

(1) is not that expensive (printing money is cheap)

As for (2) well, the Germans have leverage. They could blackmail the US to give their gold, or give them the money by saying "if you don't give us the gold OR the money equivalent as a discrete cash settlement that will bypass the "logistics problem" where you'll get off lightly to the press, we'll make it an international issue where we'll state, in rather direct terms, that you've robbed us and that your "logistic problems" are bullshit".

This prospect is a huge threat for the US and thus would have to comply otherwise trust in their role (and UK's role) as a custodian will be destroyed - no one will trust anyone else, everyone will seek repatriation and shit will hit the fan from gold shortages, making paper gold manipulation schemes fail (which, along with the petrodollar conversion, is the cornerstone strategy for preserving the USD's perceived value) and price going through the roof. Can the US afford this for a meager 600 tons or 24bn USD cash equivalent (~40mn per ton x 600 tons) ?

And not only do they have leverage but by deciding WHEN to do that type of blackmail, they can also go out and buy gold (physical or contracts) and benefit from their pre-knowledge of events, maximizing the gain from the squeeze that they themselves can cause.

In general Germans (=the government) don't seem too interested in their gold. Those who are REALLY interested in gold are actively raising their gold reserves, repatriating etc.

[AlexGR]

- How many $ would Germany expect for 600 tonnes of gold? Hundreds of billions. But they want the gold because they fundamentally believe those dollars are actually worthless.

One of the "unintended" consequences of gold price manipulation is that you can buy the entire annual mining supply with "just" 100bn USD. 600 tons are like just 24bn USD, or 17 billion euro. I assure you if Germans have tens of billions to lend to Greece, they can also buy gold (if they wanted to). But they aren't.

The reason why western countries are not buying gold and they are not creating friction between them for things like "oh I want my gold back" is because they are loosely controlled by the same centers of power. All the western world is, in fact, "one country" as far as the Elite are concerned. That's why you see coordinated central bank operations and gold moves, to cover "problems" as they arise.

Who buys gold? Those who are yet to be "globalized" - ie fall under the same unified center of power that controls western nations.

[NanoAkron]

- How many $ would Germany expect for 600 tonnes of gold? Hundreds of billions. But they want the gold because they fundamentally believe those dollars are actually worthless.

One of the "unintended" consequences of gold price manipulation is that you can buy the entire annual mining supply with "just" 100bn USD. 600 tons are like just 24bn USD, or 17 billion euro. I assure you if Germans have tens of billions to lend to Greece, they can also buy gold (if they wanted to). But they aren't.

The reason why western countries are not buying gold and they are not creating friction between them for things like "oh I want my gold back" is because they are loosely controlled by the same centers of power. All the western world is, in fact, "one country" as far as the Elite are concerned. That's why you see coordinated central bank operations and gold moves, to cover "problems" as they arise.

Who buys gold? Those who are yet to be "globalized" - ie fall under the same unified center of power that controls western nations.

Who has 600 tonnes to sell? And you bet your ass it would cost more than the simple spot price per gramme * 600 tonnes. You've also failed to address any of my other points.

[AlexGR]

- How many $ would Germany expect for 600 tonnes of gold? Hundreds of billions. But they want the gold because they fundamentally believe those dollars are actually worthless.

One of the "unintended" consequences of gold price manipulation is that you can buy the entire annual mining supply with "just" 100bn USD. 600 tons are like just 24bn USD, or 17 billion euro. I assure you if Germans have tens of billions to lend to Greece, they can also buy gold (if they wanted to). But they aren't.

The reason why western countries are not buying gold and they are not creating friction between them for things like "oh I want my gold back" is because they are loosely controlled by the same centers of power. All the western world is, in fact, "one country" as far as the Elite are concerned. That's why you see coordinated central bank operations and gold moves, to cover "problems" as they arise.

Who buys gold? Those who are yet to be "globalized" - ie fall under the same unified center of power that controls western nations.

Who has 600 tonnes to sell? And you bet your ass it would cost more than the simple spot price per gramme * 600 tonnes. You've also failed to address any of my other points.

"Who has 600 tonnes?" That's like 3 months of mining supply. If the Chinese can get 1000, can't germany find 200 x 3 years = 600? What's the problem with that?

Yes, let's see the other points:

- How many $ would Germany expect for 600 tonnes of gold? Hundreds of billions. But they want the gold because they fundamentally believe those dollars are actually worthless.

Addressed.

- How would those $ be delivered? Would they just be conjured out of thin air as more fiat? Shuffle a few numbers around a spreadsheet which can suddenly be wiped out with various financier tricks.

Money would be delivered, just like every other money transfer. Banks. Ones and zeros in banks accounts. These are not to be kept as money but to be converted to gold.

- How much less would it be worth once delivered because of inflation? Tens of millions per DAY.

Huh? Cash settlement is always about the spot price at the time when it occurs. Not the price of now and taking the money in 10 years. That would be meaningless.

- Where would they then find 600 tonnes of gold for sale for cash?

Same place as the Chinese, Indians, Russians, Dubaians, Turks, etc.

- What is the guarantee that this new gold could and would actually be delivered?

Same guarantee that any purchase has from all other countries that buy gold - why would the Germans be exempt from this rule?

Now tell me what the guarantee is that Germans will take their gold from the USA? Oh, yes, there is none.

[marcus_of_augustus]

German gold is a story that is blown out of proportion. No-one, and I mean no-one, is indicating the obvious:

Somehow you've managed to miss the obvious point of the german gold story. It is NOT germany taking delivery, it is USA not being able to deliver that is the story.

USA is alleged to have ~8,000 tons of gold stored somewhere in the USA, for their own account, and almost as much again stored in NY Fed. Res. on account of other trading nations for settling of balances.

Those are massive stockpiles that hang over the markets and contribute significantly to price calculations. The mere knowledge that those stockpiles are severely depleted, or non-existent, due to paper gold loans, swaps, 'deep storage' substitutions and re-hypothecation shenannigans would cause a run on the gold bullion banks. It would seem NY Fed. refusal to deliver german gold in timely manner indicates these stockpiles are indeed depleted, if not entirely gone. Why else would they not be able to deliver except that the gold is gone?

[AlexGR]

German gold is a story that is blown out of proportion. No-one, and I mean no-one, is indicating the obvious:

Somehow you've managed to miss the obvious point of the german gold story. It is NOT germany taking delivery, it is USA not being able to deliver that is the story.

The story is like the hook... you see gold bugs (and prominent gold figures) will go on saying "aaaaah... THERE is the evidence that there is gold shortage"... and much ink will be wasted on that story and this story will be crushed when the US decides to deliver - rendering the "gold shortage" issue as a "conspiracy story" that was promoted by "idiots", blowing their reputation.

As I said, 600 tons is nothing serious and for the USA and Germany it's a non issue as the Elite control both (it's like moving money from their right pocket to their left pocket). The delivery card will be played when gold prices are becoming unmanageable on the paper-manipulation scheme in order to calm the fear of shortages.

There are real stories and there are bullshit stories. The German gold is a bullshit story that has been leaked as a hook and it is entirely manageable. Lucky will be those who are NOT basing their gold manipulation/shortage theories based on this one story. There is a real issue with gold, there is a real issue with oversold gold, but 600 tons from a globalized country to another globalized country is truly a non-issue.

[knightcoin]

Sorry for the worthless post, I just wanted to add that I am also interested in these questions. Thanks for bringing it up.

and so do I, because I afraid I'll maybe add another worthless comment " , hope not much like "philosophers' stone" ... I truly have interest on the topic ... but ...

Can I buy a Higgs particle or the data that represents Higgs with bitcoins ?

[pening]

The US has not been unable to deliver the gold to Germany.  The request for delivery was by some date in the future (2020) and so far some 12% of the requested amount has been delivered.  For some reason the request not being for instant delivery has been spun into a story that the gold isn't there, but there's been no default this far.  The fact that Germany hasn't asked for all gold held in the US be repatriated is overlooked, along with the fact they've not requested any of the gold held in London.  Also, when Venezuela asked for their gold from the US ( about half the German amount) there was no problems and it was delivered.