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Dr Bloggood
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February 25, 2014, 12:20:27 PM |
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Maybe it's a good combination of characteristics. Maybe the fact it's so shiny shiny bling bling does the trick, so it's largely a psychological phenomenon. I don't know.
I just know one thing: Gold has been very valuable for 5000 years, and it will be valuable in the future. Gold and silver is the last "money" on earth to lose its value. The only way gold goes is when NOTHING except the goods themselves is excepted anymore for payment (gas for bananas, cabbage for cigaretts). That's really all you need to know.
You see the fundamentals regarding the value of gold are largely unknown yet that is quite irrational. How can you "not know" where its value originates but be certain that it will always be valuable? Faith, in lack of substantial evidence of value, is irrational. The only thing that keeps us going is that "other people have valued it too" as a form of self-validation of our own thought process which is, in itself, irrational due to the lack of proper facts. At the moment one realizes this mass paranoia they should stop and say "wait a minute, wtf are we doing here? this is wrong". But nobody does that. Some of the financial elite hint about the useless barbarous metal that offers nothing (and their logic seems sound but nobody hears them anyway because they are full of BS in so many other areas)... 5000 years is enough evidence for me, without the slightest doubt. Sometimes you gotta stop theorising and just look at the facts of what was/is happening. No irrationality about that. Everybody has to put the puzzle together for themselves. Your conclusion doesn't clearly come out in your post, but in case you are advising against gold, I'm wondering how you could ever hold BTC... When you go to pan some dirt and see a spec of gold in the pan, you rationally know that this is worthless in terms of $$$ (the spec that is) but your heart's BPM rise instantly, along with your excitement which jumps. It wasn't because your parents instructed you to react that way. It wasn't because your culture instructed you to react that way - the reaction was all yours and, if you analyze it, you'll see that its highly enigmatic. There's like a gravity pull / magnetic pull towards gold that seems to be "hardwired" in humans, irregardless of their upbringing, which in turns creates the gold rush effect.
In other words: It's so shiny shiny bling bling! On another note: How are things in Greece? What do you think would help Greece now, eg getting out of the Euro? |
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Every time a block is mined, a certain amount of BTC (called the
subsidy) is created out of thin air and given to the miner. The
subsidy halves every four years and will reach 0 in about 130 years.
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zeetubes
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February 25, 2014, 03:48:38 PM |
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On another note: How are things in Greece? What do you think would help Greece now, eg getting out of the Euro?
Funny, I was about to ask the same thing. I just read on zerohedge that Cyprus is beginning a promising recovery. But both Cyprus and iceland have tiny populations: 800k and 400k each. Every other major country will face 50% unemployment and no obvious way to fix it. There are just too many people and there will never again be that many jobs. |
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Dr Bloggood
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February 25, 2014, 04:06:13 PM |
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On another note: How are things in Greece? What do you think would help Greece now, eg getting out of the Euro?
Funny, I was about to ask the same thing. I just read on zerohedge that Cyprus is beginning a promising recovery. But both Cyprus and iceland have tiny populations: 800k and 400k each. Every other major country will face 50% unemployment and no obvious way to fix it. There are just too many people and there will never again be that many jobs. I'm from a Eurozone country too, and hope the Euro will be abandoned ASAP. It gives the countries in debt no possibility of getting out and the richer countries have to pay into a barrel without bottom. The Euro is ruining us, but very few people see it so far. |
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Mikcik (OP)
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February 25, 2014, 08:07:55 PM |
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Well i thought about the same exact thing, why is gold valuable? And i dont care now aboutthe fact that 40% of demand if from jewelry etc. industry and 10% is for industrial use of gold. I think that gold has its price and monetary system because: 1) Nobody will for a longer period of time use barter trade (something real for someting real, e.g. 1 pig for 300 Kg of wheat, thats imposible to do for a long time. 2) So there always will be need for some "money" 3) Paper money can be printed and thus easily debased, so there is need for something that cannot be just printed, easily made. Altough politicians and media might manipulate you into believing paper money, the simple fact is that you can always print more so in reality this is not the way to go. 4) So there is need for something else, something "unique" that cannot be produced, printed, read counterfeited easily... 5) Metals seems good, since they are "moveable" (not like properties or land), they dont rott, or dont get old and "damaged" (as cars, wheet etc.) and they are quite "indestructible", and talking about gold, you can also "easily" tell if its true or false (true gold is quite soft and heavy). 6) And why exactly Gold and not platina for example? Well i dont know, there are more rare resources and even metals then gold, like rhodium for example, but they might have some weak points (human skin stinks in contact with rhodium for example). But why not platina for example which is quite stable and rare metal...? Well i dont know, gold has been around for thousands of years and people are simply used to it, if platina would be discovered back in i dont know 3000 b.c. it might be platina and not gold, that is used in monetary system... 7) Its like you want something done (fix a toilet :-) ) and you have 2 choices, someone who you knew that before did good job and is in all means proven (good) or someone new who hasnt been used and you dont know what to think abou it... So its gold...  Why was it gold in the first first first place thousand of years ago i dont know, it was a rare metal probably, good looking, people didnt know about similiar metals and thus it was used and it simply "stucked" and when something "stucks" it present a good power... Why use platina or rhodium instead of gold when gold and silver are so established as money... theres no reason... Sure if gov. push and media publish propaganda, people might be using platina instead of gold or something else... But it would need to be a steady and hard long lasting push and it wont be natural... In natural way, theres no need to use something else (platina) instead of gold. 9) So the difference is quite little (gold vs platina for example) but it exists there, and if nobody will push and try to change the collective consciousness of the world to belive in platina instead of gold as money, people wont come to this persuasion themselves. So the line is quite slim (gold vs. platina for example) but it is there... So thats the reason why gold is considered money and precious according to me... But that doesnt really mean that there cant be anything else as money, for example to be correct i think bitcoin is quite superior to gold as a money... i wouldnt really EVER want to store large sums of money in bitcoin, since it really doesnt exist, so as a store of wealth i think gold is MUCH better (or at least better) then bitcoin, but in terms of money... wel... i would always rather use bitcoin then gold for paying for something i bought... Goldbugs wont say this to you, but they realize that bitcoin is the NEW GOLD in terms of transaction, paying etc. And goldbugs are scarred as shit of bitcoin :-), listen to peter |
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Mikcik (OP)
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February 25, 2014, 08:08:58 PM |
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On another note: How are things in Greece? What do you think would help Greece now, eg getting out of the Euro?
Funny, I was about to ask the same thing. I just read on zerohedge that Cyprus is beginning a promising recovery. But both Cyprus and iceland have tiny populations: 800k and 400k each. Every other major country will face 50% unemployment and no obvious way to fix it. There are just too many people and there will never again be that many jobs. War might solve this :-)... (and even if it is sad, its effective and true :-( ). |
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Mikcik (OP)
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February 25, 2014, 08:14:33 PM |
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Listen to Peter Schiff for example how he bashes gold, he is REALLY afraid... you can tell by the way he is lying, manipulating about gold vs. bitcoin and hes inteligent, he knows he is lying :-). He said for example that gold is divisible just as bitcoin is :-). thats just stupid.
So i find bitcoin and crypto superior to fiat and gold as money, sorry guys :-).
But i would always rather store my wealth in gold then in bitcoin, because bitcoin really doesnt exist... For example if i had $ 10 000 i would like to have i dont know have around $1000 in bitcoin for pying for stuff and 9 000$ in gold :-) as and hard wealth storage.
So thats my thoughts about the "why gold".
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AlexGR
Legendary
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Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
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February 25, 2014, 09:27:35 PM |
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5000 years is enough evidence for me, without the slightest doubt. Sometimes you gotta stop theorizing and just look at the facts of what was/is happening. No irrationality about that. Everybody has to put the puzzle together for themselves.
Your conclusion doesn't clearly come out in your post, but in case you are advising against gold, I'm wondering how you could ever hold BTC...
No, I'm not advising against or in favor of gold. I'm simply giving you the opportunity to think. Every investment we make has to be assessed for its value. If I buy land, I know that land is finite – you can't make more of it. I know it can grow stuff, I know it can shelter people in that space etc etc. If I buy stocks, I see what the company produces, what the prospects are for the future etc etc. If I buy fiat from another country, I assess their macroeconomics etc etc. If I buy cryptocurrencies, I assess their properties and place in the market etc If I buy metals, then what is it that I should be assessing? Other than knowing about the bottom price (=mining cost), I don't know much else on why gold Is valuable... I am at a tremendous information disadvantage. Now, to be clear, this information disadvantage is prevalent throughout practically every gold investor. The lack of information regarding what makes gold valuable is at the core of gold's manipulation. It is a factor that is multiple times bigger than the paper scam: If people don't know the true value of something they are very likely to underestimate it. You could have something valuable and throw it away because you don't know what it is really worth. Likewise you may have something like gold and be selling it 10 times lower than you should because you have no idea what it is REALLY worth, but instead go with the market price which is reached by a consensus of ignorant parties (at best) or fixed by manipulators (at worst). You see right now gold and silver are being priced not for what they are but in relation to the mining and extraction costs that are considered as the bottom prices. It's like there is no significant added value other than the mining – in some cases silver can go below that cost, and silver in particular has quite desireable properties for the industry (hundreds of uses). All these things are ...somewhat absurd. I know I am not revealing the true reason but that's only because that reason is not really believable for most people – it turns their world paradigm upside down. Additionally, a truth which is handed out is not really appreciated with the same way that one would appreciate a truth that he discovered on his own. It's just how the dynamics of human psychology work. In other words: It's so shiny shiny bling bling!
Gold is rarely the only thing that blings. Actually it tends not to in most cases (its pale metallic instead of shiny metallic) while some other metals and small particles tend to bling a lot (although with a silvery color). Sometimes you can even see mercury blinging waaaay more – and it has the liquid metal effect which is like “whoa”. On another note: How are things in Greece? What do you think would help Greece now, eg getting out of the Euro?
Things are well, shitty. People don't even have money to heat themselves or put gasoline on their cars so most are doing reduced mileage or burning wood for heating purposes. The main problem right now is lack of currency / liquidity in real economic transactions like going to buy clothes, medicine, gasoline etc. The country is only theoretically inside the euro as the euro has become so scarce that a lot of people don't have it to trade with one another. With 30% unemployment the salary for people is like 0 euro while the cost of living is running, demanding euros everyday. How is one supposed to pay for this? Young people go back to their parents, or immigrate. There's not much to do around here really. Lack of liquidity, over-taxation and negative credit rates have killed every activity. Debt default, exiting the euro and going to a national currency is the way to go – there's nothing good in the projections for the future regarding the country staying inside the euro. Listen to Peter Schiff for example how he bashes gold, he is REALLY afraid... you can tell by the way he is lying, manipulating about gold vs. bitcoin and hes inteligent, he knows he is lying :-). He said for example that gold is divisible just as bitcoin is :-). thats just stupid.
So i find bitcoin and crypto superior to fiat and gold as money, sorry guys :-).
Fiat is the most bullshit form of money. Monopoly money at its worst. Bitcoin is far better but it has to become easier and safer for everyone to use without fearing they'll lose everything. Ignorance is part of human nature and if people judge that bitcoin can destroy their deposits then they'll not opt for it, preferring fiat and a bank. Gold is at the top but not so much as currency – more like a store of wealth. Higher denomination gold coins could be used for currency in the west but generally it is too rare to be used as such or too expensive to be used in like a hundred poor countries. Silver is ideal for every-day currency and it has worked well in the past. Personally I don't see any war between bitcoins and gold or silver. They can act as supplementary investments for anyone who dislike fiat. As for the arguments on why gold, yes they are valid arguments for numismatic convenience, but the real question of value remains. And as I said earlier, it is a fundamental component of price suppression for if people don't know how to assess the value of gold and the reasons on why it is so valuable, they have no way to understand its fair price. |
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lnternet
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February 25, 2014, 10:33:00 PM |
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1ntemetqbXokPSSkuHH4iuAJRTQMP6uJ9
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ShireSilver
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February 26, 2014, 01:06:14 AM |
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Fiat is the most bullshit form of money. Monopoly money at its worst. Bitcoin is far better but it has to become easier and safer for everyone to use without fearing they'll lose everything. Ignorance is part of human nature and if people judge that bitcoin can destroy their deposits then they'll not opt for it, preferring fiat and a bank. Gold is at the top but not so much as currency – more like a store of wealth. Higher denomination gold coins could be used for currency in the west but generally it is too rare to be used as such or too expensive to be used in like a hundred poor countries. Silver is ideal for every-day currency and it has worked well in the past.
Personally I don't see any war between bitcoins and gold or silver. They can act as supplementary investments for anyone who dislike fiat.
Do you think Shire Silver would work as a good supplement there? The smallest gold cards are about 3 Euros in price (1/20th gram), and the smallest silver cards are less than 1 Euro (1/2 gram). Someone over there might be able to make a good business out of making their own version and promoting it. Its certainly a lot easier to understand than bitcoin but can be produced without government interference. |
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AlexGR
Legendary
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Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
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February 27, 2014, 06:53:45 AM |
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Nice catch. For a BBC article, too many logic fallacies compressed there. So he ends up saying it's convenience and ...color, dismissing copper for turning green. He also faces a logic problem when he says that platinum is so rare but gold isn't, so we use gold... now, if platinum is so rare, why isn't it like 10x more VALUEable? Why are Platinum Eagles not worth 10 times as much as Gold Eagles if platinum is extracted at a rate of 150tns/year rather than 2500tns? (worse than 1:10). He says it himself: Gold is not incredibly rare, so? Copper can also be alloyed and give nice, beautiful gold color (eg the type you see in 10-20-50 eurocents denomination), reducing the problem of copper tarnishing. Iron, btw, is used extensively as currency, both historically, and today. Take a magnet and use it in 1-2-5c eurocoins or even 1 euro / 2 euro coins - the core is magnetically attracted. Eurocents in particular are iron covered with a copper plating so that they look copper. They can't afford copper because the actual cost of the metal is greater than the value of the coin (an indication of why fiat money is a very bad idea with the value of metal exceeding the denomination of a coin). The argument about "oh they all look the same" about colorless metals is UTTER BS. Otherwise there would be no silver coins because, well, it could be lead or molybdenum - I mean we don't really know if it's silver, do we? It's all "silvery-like"... so, silver is out too with his logic. Yet silver was the #1 metal for currency up to the '60s - with tens of billions of coins in worldwide circulation. Of course he mentions none of the problems of gold as currency, like the fact that it is not durable and has to be alloyed with copper to endure even small levels of abuse (gold=soft). Paradoxically this makes it lose its original yellow color and takes a more redish/orange color that is further from the original gold color than the brass/bronze yellow coins. Alloying is usually 90-92% purity (90% was in the 1800's for European countries, 91.7% was the spec for UK coins). Additionally, gold coins had a weight issue as weight was gradually removed from the coin, either due to circulation, or due to intentional wear (putting 100 coins in a small bag, moving them around so that one can collect the gold dust) which made them unsuitable for circulation within a few years. I mean iron rust and copper tarnishing is nothing for long-term durability compared to having to remint every single gold coin for being underweight. Yet the broader question is not whether gold is good for coins, but why do we value it... If someone says "its properties", or "scarcity", then we must also apply the same reasoning and examine the case of silver. Silver has 5:1 above ground quantities relative to gold and is extracted at a rate of 9:1 in quantity relative to gold. It has spectacular properties in many regards, being the best metallic conductor (electrical/thermal) and is also the most reflective. The price ratio of 60:1 between gold and silver cannot really be justified. Even if we go with the crowd's wisdom and tradition, everything that applies about the historic value of gold, also applies for the value of silver. Yet silver was rated from ~10:1 to 17/19:1 in coinage (1800s/1900s), not 50 to 80:1 which is the current range for the last few years. So, for all intents and purposes, silver is currently the best value for money. It's a precious metal, it is useful, it has industrial demand, etc etc. Additionally the supply curve indicates that, in the long run, there'll have to be a convergence between the 60:1 and the actual supply (9:1) for if demand is balanced then silver stocks will be depleted very rapidly (as they do, gradually)... So why not silver? Again, without understanding the real reason why gold and silver have "intrinsic value", there is no way for people to understand what the fair price is. Do you think Shire Silver would work as a good supplement there? The smallest gold cards are about 3 Euros in price (1/20th gram), and the smallest silver cards are less than 1 Euro (1/2 gram). Someone over there might be able to make a good business out of making their own version and promoting it. Its certainly a lot easier to understand than bitcoin but can be produced without government interference.
I was not aware of Shire Silver so I looked it up. Well, as I see it, and if the pricing scheme you mention is accurate, then I can't see it working. I mean gold is around 30 euro per gram, why pay 60 euro for 20 x 1/20 cards? It would make sense to have a ~10-15% premium (some bullion coins, especially of the 1/10th OZ variety, may have similar premiums), but not 100% on the price of the metal. That would be attacked by the fiat people as a scam. 100% premium aside, it might be able to work if people could do on-the-fly maths about the value of things. For example when I drink a 3 EUR coffee, my mind instantly translates this to 0.1 grams of gold. But I'm like a super-minority - nobody does that stuff, especially in countries with hard currency like mine which is inside the euro. The best bet would be countries with soft currencies and marketing such cards with low premiums of, at most, 10%. I have no idea if that covers the expenses of manufacturing, marketing etc but it just doesn't make sense for much more than that. |
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Dr Bloggood
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February 27, 2014, 11:33:06 PM |
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On another note: How are things in Greece? What do you think would help Greece now, eg getting out of the Euro?
Things are well, shitty. People don't even have money to heat themselves or put gasoline on their cars so most are doing reduced mileage or burning wood for heating purposes. The main problem right now is lack of currency / liquidity in real economic transactions like going to buy clothes, medicine, gasoline etc. The country is only theoretically inside the euro as the euro has become so scarce that a lot of people don't have it to trade with one another. With 30% unemployment the salary for people is like 0 euro while the cost of living is running, demanding euros everyday. How is one supposed to pay for this? Young people go back to their parents, or immigrate. There's not much to do around here really. Lack of liquidity, over-taxation and negative credit rates have killed every activity. Debt default, exiting the euro and going to a national currency is the way to go – there's nothing good in the projections for the future regarding the country staying inside the euro. That sucks, sorry to hear that! Let's see how much longer clueless and scared politicians will carry on with the failed Euro. What do you mean by "the Euro has become so scarce..."? What are the mechanics behind this and what do people use for payment then? |
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Dr Bloggood
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February 28, 2014, 12:40:55 AM |
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Silver has 5:1 above ground quantities relative to gold and is extracted at a rate of 9:1 in quantity relative to gold. It has spectacular properties in many regards, being the best metallic conductor (electrical/thermal) and is also the most reflective. The price ratio of 60:1 between gold and silver cannot really be justified. Even if we go with the crowd's wisdom and tradition, everything that applies about the historic value of gold, also applies for the value of silver. Yet silver was rated from ~10:1 to 17/19:1 in coinage (1800s/1900s), not 50 to 80:1 which is the current range for the last few years.
So, for all intents and purposes, silver is currently the best value for money. It's a precious metal, it is useful, it has industrial demand, etc etc. Additionally the supply curve indicates that, in the long run, there'll have to be a convergence between the 60:1 and the actual supply (9:1) for if demand is balanced then silver stocks will be depleted very rapidly (as they do, gradually)... So why not silver?
Agreed, if you are implying silver will rise much more than gold. The silver investment market is very small compared to the gold investment market too, so for investment purposes, it's even better than 5:1. What do you think is the reason the SG ratio was so much smaller in earlier centuries - what happened in the 20th century? In Roman times it was 12:1. |
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Mikcik (OP)
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February 28, 2014, 01:16:03 AM |
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Silver has 5:1 above ground quantities relative to gold and is extracted at a rate of 9:1 in quantity relative to gold. It has spectacular properties in many regards, being the best metallic conductor (electrical/thermal) and is also the most reflective. The price ratio of 60:1 between gold and silver cannot really be justified. Even if we go with the crowd's wisdom and tradition, everything that applies about the historic value of gold, also applies for the value of silver. Yet silver was rated from ~10:1 to 17/19:1 in coinage (1800s/1900s), not 50 to 80:1 which is the current range for the last few years.
So, for all intents and purposes, silver is currently the best value for money. It's a precious metal, it is useful, it has industrial demand, etc etc. Additionally the supply curve indicates that, in the long run, there'll have to be a convergence between the 60:1 and the actual supply (9:1) for if demand is balanced then silver stocks will be depleted very rapidly (as they do, gradually)... So why not silver?
Agreed, if you are implying silver will rise much more than gold. The silver investment market is very small compared to the gold investment market too, so for investment purposes, it's even better than 5:1. What do you think is the reason the SG ratio was so much smaller in earlier centuries - what happened in the 20th century? In Roman times it was 12:1. well silver is mined as far as i know, the majority of it, with other metals... as a "by-product", really there are (at least from what i read) a minimum of purely silver mines, the majority of the mines in which silver is mined are mining primarely something else (like i dont know, iron copper, etc. and it happens that silver is often also present, so its mined also, but only as a "side product". So maybe the boom in technology in 20th century meant that there were a lot of new mines discovered and opened (iron, copper etc.) and thus more of these metals were mined, and thus also more silver was mined, and thus there was suddenly more silver available and thus the price went down... but this is just my quick teory, didnt research it and didnt even thought about it more. (but on the other hand, silver si widely used in a lot of industries which were not in the past, so the demand is stronger, so also the price should be higher, which it is not, which is weird... Also there is the possibility that gold is overvalued a lot :-). |
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AlexGR
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
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February 28, 2014, 01:53:56 AM |
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Silver has 5:1 above ground quantities relative to gold and is extracted at a rate of 9:1 in quantity relative to gold. It has spectacular properties in many regards, being the best metallic conductor (electrical/thermal) and is also the most reflective. The price ratio of 60:1 between gold and silver cannot really be justified. Even if we go with the crowd's wisdom and tradition, everything that applies about the historic value of gold, also applies for the value of silver. Yet silver was rated from ~10:1 to 17/19:1 in coinage (1800s/1900s), not 50 to 80:1 which is the current range for the last few years.
So, for all intents and purposes, silver is currently the best value for money. It's a precious metal, it is useful, it has industrial demand, etc etc. Additionally the supply curve indicates that, in the long run, there'll have to be a convergence between the 60:1 and the actual supply (9:1) for if demand is balanced then silver stocks will be depleted very rapidly (as they do, gradually)... So why not silver?
Agreed, if you are implying silver will rise much more than gold. The silver investment market is very small compared to the gold investment market too, so for investment purposes, it's even better than 5:1. What do you think is the reason the SG ratio was so much smaller in earlier centuries - what happened in the 20th century? In Roman times it was 12:1. I'm not really implying a rise because the market is manipulated, so... but it is manipulated in ways that are larger than simple price fixing. Cheap silver could currently be used in a multitude of electronic devices to increase their efficiency by 6-10% depending the copper they currently use. It could be used in transformers, rotors, wiring etc. In microelectronics where the PCBs are very small, the cost would be negligible as a cost per unit and it would also relieve the need for gold plating the contacts. An electric motor though for a car would be a different story as the wiring would need a few thousand $$$ extra (a few kgs), but, in light of the total cost, and the increased efficiency, it could be worth it - after all it is not money that is wasted, the silver is still there for removal at any time. Thing is, they won't let the industry use silver in such a way because then the price would skyrocket due to massive demand. As for the ratio, the recent spike is related to the removal of silver coinage and the elite focusing more on the hoarding of gold, rather than silver. Gold is more hoarded and, as such, rarer to find in the marketplace in adequate quantities. Silver, on the other hand, is not stockpiled in vaults to the same degree as gold. It's really more hoarding in gold vs less hoarding in silver that has led to the current ratio. That sucks, sorry to hear that! Let's see how much longer clueless and scared politicians will carry on with the failed Euro.
What do you mean by "the Euro has become so scarce..."? What are the mechanics behind this and what do people use for payment then?
The mechanics are simple: Daily expenses, a lot of taxation* and banks demanding the loans back depletes the circulating currency. This is worsened by a negative trade balance (more currency leaving the country than what is entering the economy), a near halt of credit expansion by the banks (they don't give new loans) and government attempting to achieve a surplus, which in other words means that it plunders the citizens more money than it gives back through services, wages etc. In short, you have more money taken from the people than being given to them which is a recipe for euro-scarcity. 30% unemployment also means that not many people are making money right now, so how are they supposed to have any money? There are no unemployment benefits worthy of mention and even if one qualifies, it's like 300-400 euro for a few months and it's over. * Taxation has reached unimaginable lengths of unfairness where people are being taxed for simply being alive. Every citizen is assumed to be creating an income of 3000 euros just because they happen to be alive. The rationale is "if you are living, then you are somehow eating, drinking, etc - so there is no way you are not having an income, and based on this ASSUMPTION, I will tax you". On top of that imaginary income, further imaginary income is added if one has a car or a house. So if you have, say, a 1000cc car and a 50 square meter apartment, you may be taxed as having an income of 8000 euros, which could tally up to something like 2000 euros for direct tax, property tax, car tax etc. That applies even if one is making ZERO income. The rationale is "how do you eat, live, have a car, a house etc without having 8000 income? Therefore you have that type of income, and so I will tax you". I know people abroad hear about tax evading greeks etc, but they never hear about the insanity of the tax system where even homeless people have to pay taxes. Greece is the most over-taxed nation right now on the planet. You could be working all day and paying >100% of your income in taxes if you are self-employed. Nobody can beat that level of taxation. well silver is mined as far as i know, the majority of it, with other metals... as a "by-product", really there are (at least from what i read) a minimum of purely silver mines, the majority of the mines in which silver is mined are mining primarely something else (like i dont know, iron copper, etc. and it happens that silver is often also present, so its mined also, but only as a "side product". So maybe the boom in technology in 20th century meant that there were a lot of new mines discovered and opened (iron, copper etc.) and thus more of these metals were mined, and thus also more silver was mined, and thus there was suddenly more silver available and thus the price went down... but this is just my quick teory, didnt research it and didnt even thought about it more. (but on the other hand, silver si widely used in a lot of industries which were not in the past, so the demand is stronger, so also the price should be higher, which it is not, which is weird...
The economics of silver mining, due to the price of silver, disallow silver mining operations except in very rare cases of quite rich deposits. Thus a process of "merged mining" is employed where a mine extracts multiple metals to increase its viability. Usually copper, lead and other metals are the primary metal of extraction and silver, or even small quantities of gold, can be secondary metals that simply add further value to the mining operation. |
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HegelianCattalactics
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February 28, 2014, 05:05:57 AM |
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OP are you here? Bonus at the end  I am glad you posted what you know. Agreed. I retired as a stock trader at the age of 40. (I have been inside of varied # of things to know a wide spectrum of global info.) Manipulation is a constant in any market. From subtle to overt; greed and fear are the greatest causes for migratory patterns of wealth and the amoral efforts to secure it. The question isn't IF ... but who, how, why and to what benefit can that information help my decision processes. Who - You have listed some and have not listed others. ( I believe it is a long list. ) How - Price suppression, hedge fund tactics, and a "Great Shake-out" herding of those who get scared and sell at a loss. Why - It is profitable and increases power and control which is the currency of the elite, governmental and global powers. How to benefit: - Realize the big fish control the markets and supply and demand can and is being manipulated within given bandwidths. - Swim with the tide of the big fish and pick the scraps. - Swim against the big fish and get eaten. - I trade gold stocks now. Gold needs be above $1100 for them to produce. Below that then supply falls and price rises. - China, India and Emerging markets increase their demand for Gold the more each economy prospers. - The Big fish plan and know this and other megatrend economic global issues and adjust their tactics. I thought I had seen most all in certain arenas till I saw this video. (Huge confirmation on many fronts. I had to corroborate with sources.) Gold - Watch carefully. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-2Rfuq8NBUFave econ Video for fun http://youtu.be/d0nERTFo-Sk |
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Mikcik (OP)
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March 05, 2014, 08:01:49 PM |
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Heres another "clue" that there might really be something to the issue of missing gold of USA, gold manipulation etc... check this out: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/Dr. Paul Craig Roberts was some advisor (economic) in the Regan administation (Regan= past US president), so the shouldnt be dumb, and should have some knowledge how "stuff" works in the usa, politics etc. And he also states, that USA doesnt have any more gold... (or at least that the majority is gone) and he also believes that theres a gold manipulation...: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/01/17/hows-whys-gold-price-manipulation/And the best thing of all... He doesnt sell gold :-), and i didnt find any connection with gold sellers (e.g. banners of his site etc.). now that doesnt mean that there isnt any connection, but as far as i know, this guy is "real and honest", not concerned with gold selling, and still he states there IS a manipulation... So, those who own gold, lets hope it goes to 15 000 USD per ounce :-)! And BTW, bitcoin, which is new, not manipulated, and "doesnt exist" (is not physical) managed to rise 78,5 X in 2013... so the rise of gold from 1300 to 15000, that means 11,5 X in few years doesnt seems so SCI-FI :-)... Lets hope! |
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marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
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Activity: 3920
Merit: 2348
Eadem mutata resurgo
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March 06, 2014, 01:18:13 AM |
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FT. Knox == Mt. Gox
c'mon everybody knows that and has done for some time. The USA is busted ass, there is no gold, it's as obvious as the nose on your face.
Why else do they refuse audits? If they had the gold they would be showing great hordes around the place and charging for the viewings .... it's the oldest trick in the book, a liar sitting in front of an empty vault. C'mon, really? you think Ft. Gox has gold? Whadda ya smoking?
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AlexGR
Legendary
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Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
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March 06, 2014, 04:45:40 AM |
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FT. Knox == Mt. Gox
c'mon everybody knows that and has done for some time. The USA is busted ass, there is no gold, it's as obvious as the nose on your face.
Why else do they refuse audits? If they had the gold they would be showing great hordes around the place and charging for the viewings .... it's the oldest trick in the book, a liar sitting in front of an empty vault. C'mon, really? you think Ft. Gox has gold? Whadda ya smoking?
So if they do an audit tomorrow and, say, 95% of the quantity is there, would that mean that they have the gold? Audit = no proof because they are moving it around between western/globalized vaults. Proof = when there is simultaneous audit in various large western vaults, both national and corporate, so that it can be ensured that the gold is not being moved around or melted/recasted into new bars with other serial #. Given sufficient time lag for preparation, you can present ten thousand tons of gold in one vault this month, another 10ktons of gold in another vault in the next month etc etc - and give the appearance that everything is in order. |
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