Price of gold manipulation

[zeetubes]

just a dumb question but what about the private gold ( non-government ) groups ? how they affects the price ?

I am curious because I saw that advertise (sorry) btw, I have not connection at all with this particular website but they say "BullionVault . com is part-owned by the World Gold Council and is the world's largest online investment gold service. We take care of $2 billion for more than 50,000 users "

That's all 'paper' gold - just numbers in a database. If major economies start to collapse, do you think anybody with their names and money with bullionvault.com are going to receive any real gold?

I've never invested with Bullionvault but as far as I know their gold is indeed "allocated," and definitely not paper. I actually think it's a good, pertinent question. I've seen a chart somewhere that shows private ownership of gold in India alone is the biggest stock of gold in the world. Bigger than Ft Knox. (similar to how facebook is the 3rd biggest country in the world by population). It doesn't really impact the daily price of gold because private holdings are not part of the daily price fix.

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[knightcoin]

just a dumb question but what about the private gold ( non-government ) groups ? how they affects the price ?

I am curious because I saw that advertise (sorry) btw, I have not connection at all with this particular website but they say "BullionVault . com is part-owned by the World Gold Council and is the world's largest online investment gold service. We take care of $2 billion for more than 50,000 users "

I dont understand your question, "the private groups, how do they affect the price" :-)?

Well the more i look into it, the more i belive there are 2 conspiracies, one on the part of gov. which really have problems with gold, but also on the part of the "gold sellers" which i really more and more belive have a strategy in promoting the "economic collapse" issue and "gold going to 15 000 USD per ounce" just to boost up sales. As far as i know, there gold organizations that have world scale to them, there are international conferences about the issue, so i really wouldnt be suprissed if the gold bugs (sellers etc.) would be over-blowing the importance of gold... There are "bitches" everywhere :-), its hard to tell who to belive, but as i said previously i like the "neutral" look which Jim Rogers and Marc Faber have on gold. Which is a possitive view, but really not a "golds going to 15000 oz" view...

Also i red somewhere that in 2011 i belive, anually, the gold demand consisted of around
40 % gold was for (non gov) investment
40 % gold was for rings, decoration, etc. "fancy stuff"
only 10% of gold was used in industry (? wow)
and only 10% of gold demand came from central banks...

so "private" demands affects the price hugelly (around 90%).

heres some other info:

Thanks. I would like to know your opinion about the other side, about...production

..For instance .. In South America ... when Vale do Rio Doce and Rio Tinto get a governmental authorization to mine gold in Amazon again (still some political conflicts in the area, btw )  ... where that gold will be storage ? for example, looking back history in 80's ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serra_Pelada , http://www.articlesbase.com/investing-articles/colossus-minerals-a-colossal-opportunity-365315.html ) Uruguay/Paraguai and other countries that does not have any big gold reserve became graters Latin America gold exporter (?) ...  I know a bit about that particular golden rush ...

The reason I support bitcoin instead gold is because is more ecologically acceptable isn't it ?


ps->
for more details info in Portuguese (you can try google/bing translator)
http://andradetalis.wordpress.com/tag/cade-o-ouro-de-serra-pelada/

[AlexGR]

Again, I'm telling you, the whole story was leaked to the goldbugs so that they can get excited with the elite playing the delivery card in the future and crashing the goldbug speculation + reputation.

This is obviously just a made up theory.

The "story" arose because of a citizen's action initiative in Germany that asked to audit Germany's gold reserves. That then escalated when it was found oout him much of Germany's gold was not actually in Germany and then a group of politicians and citizens took up the cause to repatriate the gold. It is all well documented in Der Speigel if you were truly following the 'story'.

No conspiracy or "leaked story" for those 'crazy goldbugs'. Try harder for another meme?

Since when do the governments do what small groups of active citizens desire?

Does the US audit the Fed or the Fort Knox because Ron Paul and his supporters -in the millions- ask that? No.

Do small groups of people, or even a few politicians, have any influence on how the government will act regarding its strategic resources like gold? The answer is again no.

Look, here in Greece for example there is a push from below to ask for the German loan during WW2 (occupied Greece was forced to loan Germany a few billions and then Germany never paid them back despite the end of the war and such). Do you really think citizens or politicians dictate if the government will actually demand it? 99% of the citizens are in favor, yet the government won't do it. Politicians from the entire spectrum are in favor and again the government won't do it.

The decision of Germany to ask repatriation has nothing to do with citizens activism. These are strategic decisions taken at an entirely different level. "Citizens action initiative" = null and void for the elite.

You are simply dumb Alex. I read a lot of your posts and you are either trolling or are dumb and you cannot even realize that. I dont even get a lot of the time what you really mean.

As far as i know it really came from "the people" there was simply probably too much pressure for a longer time and the gov. simply had to react, so he told the bundesbank to react and it had to "somehow" react. But hey, they still didnt see their gold...

Your assumption that the whole thing is just a trick how to discredit the gold bugs doesnt really seem plausible to me, its just too much work and risk for what? Its simply not worth it. If you fail to see it, than sorry but as i said your are not really bright... Also the term you are using "the elite" seems to me indicate something about you and its not a nice thing. Didnt mean that offensively, im just saying.

I'm dumb because I'm pointing the obvious that ordinary people don't have the power to effect strategic decisions of this type? Like activists can tell the government how many tons or what time plan for delivery will be followed. This is bullshit - you should have realized it the moment you were typing it. Activists demanding repatriation and the government caving in. Yeah, right. Like activism of auditing the fed and fort knox (wonder why that didn't happen... maybe activism doesn't work?)...

The Elite play the news game. Some times they create the scenarios and the news. Other times they play with the story itself that has evolved organically. That's how it works with commodities and you have no idea how the game is played - you think what you read is truth and repeat it like a parrot. Anyone who has a different view than the mainstream theory is "dumb" for your standards and, apparently, people who let the media and alternative media to guide their thinking process are the "smart" ones, like you.

So if today Germany is not getting its gold it means that there are "gold shortages" and if tomorrow Germany gets it, what will this mean? That gold is ok and there are no shortages? Don't you get it? No, apparently you don't.

As for the term elite, call them as you like... globalists, controllers, plutocrats, the 0.00001%, elite, the rulers of this planet etc. These guys own every politician, company, bank etc of the globalized nations. The globalized nations are, essentially, acting as one country with one government giving them directions for all things important like resources (and appear to be in disputes for the unimportant things like fiat money).

The yet-to-be-globalized countries are countries like China, Iran, Venezuela etc. These do not conform to the same type of universal over-control. Globalized countries will not push gold demand upwards precisely because they are controlled, in an orchestrated manner, from atop. They will sell their gold reserves together, they will move gold where needed etc. Non-globalized countries however are quite interested at pursuing their own national interests and as such they will be buying gold, demanding it where there is a problem etc etc.

Germany is a globalized country. On a superficial level "it wants its gold" without any other moves that show that Germany is serious with gold.

On the globalized level its irrelevant if the gold is in the vault of a globalized country or another globalized country. It's like a pair of trousers with 10 pockets. If you have 100$ in one pocket or the other pocket, it doesn't matter - it's all in the same pair of trousers. The only thing that globalists/elite etc care, are that the majority of gold won't leave for non-globalized destinations, or, worse yet, individuals like the citizens of India who are massive hoarders.

[Mikcik]

just a dumb question but what about the private gold ( non-government ) groups ? how they affects the price ?

I am curious because I saw that advertise (sorry) btw, I have not connection at all with this particular website but they say "BullionVault . com is part-owned by the World Gold Council and is the world's largest online investment gold service. We take care of $2 billion for more than 50,000 users "

I dont understand your question, "the private groups, how do they affect the price" :-)?

Well the more i look into it, the more i belive there are 2 conspiracies, one on the part of gov. which really have problems with gold, but also on the part of the "gold sellers" which i really more and more belive have a strategy in promoting the "economic collapse" issue and "gold going to 15 000 USD per ounce" just to boost up sales. As far as i know, there gold organizations that have world scale to them, there are international conferences about the issue, so i really wouldnt be suprissed if the gold bugs (sellers etc.) would be over-blowing the importance of gold... There are "bitches" everywhere :-), its hard to tell who to belive, but as i said previously i like the "neutral" look which Jim Rogers and Marc Faber have on gold. Which is a possitive view, but really not a "golds going to 15000 oz" view...

Also i red somewhere that in 2011 i belive, anually, the gold demand consisted of around
40 % gold was for (non gov) investment
40 % gold was for rings, decoration, etc. "fancy stuff"
only 10% of gold was used in industry (? wow)
and only 10% of gold demand came from central banks...

so "private" demands affects the price hugelly (around 90%).

heres some other info:

Thanks. I would like to know your opinion about the other side, about...production

..For instance .. In South America ... when Vale do Rio Doce and Rio Tinto get a governmental authorization to mine gold in Amazon again (still some political conflicts in the area, btw )  ... where that gold will be storage ? for example, looking back history in 80's ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serra_Pelada , http://www.articlesbase.com/investing-articles/colossus-minerals-a-colossal-opportunity-365315.html ) Uruguay/Paraguai and other countries that does not have any big gold reserve became graters Latin America gold exporter (?) ...  I know a bit about that particular golden rush ...

The reason I support bitcoin instead gold is because is more ecologically acceptable isn't it ?


ps->
for more details info in Portuguese (you can try google/bing translator)
http://andradetalis.wordpress.com/tag/cade-o-ouro-de-serra-pelada/

I dont know... it depends, i think the gold mines will have all agreements in place (already made) before they start the actual mining. Gov. might have some future gold already reserved (for example 10% of anual production will be bought by the gov. no matter what). Than the majority will go to some gold refiners for actual refining it into standard and accaptable gold bars and coins and then i dont know :-). I know only a little about gold.

Also i belive that the gold mines will be selling future contracts right away, so they might have a production for the next 5 years already sold to someone...? (some bullion bank, even central bank, some big hedge fund, etc...)

[Mikcik]

Again, I'm telling you, the whole story was leaked to the goldbugs so that they can get excited with the elite playing the delivery card in the future and crashing the goldbug speculation + reputation.

This is obviously just a made up theory.

The "story" arose because of a citizen's action initiative in Germany that asked to audit Germany's gold reserves. That then escalated when it was found oout him much of Germany's gold was not actually in Germany and then a group of politicians and citizens took up the cause to repatriate the gold. It is all well documented in Der Speigel if you were truly following the 'story'.

No conspiracy or "leaked story" for those 'crazy goldbugs'. Try harder for another meme?

Since when do the governments do what small groups of active citizens desire?

Does the US audit the Fed or the Fort Knox because Ron Paul and his supporters -in the millions- ask that? No.

Do small groups of people, or even a few politicians, have any influence on how the government will act regarding its strategic resources like gold? The answer is again no.

Look, here in Greece for example there is a push from below to ask for the German loan during WW2 (occupied Greece was forced to loan Germany a few billions and then Germany never paid them back despite the end of the war and such). Do you really think citizens or politicians dictate if the government will actually demand it? 99% of the citizens are in favor, yet the government won't do it. Politicians from the entire spectrum are in favor and again the government won't do it.

The decision of Germany to ask repatriation has nothing to do with citizens activism. These are strategic decisions taken at an entirely different level. "Citizens action initiative" = null and void for the elite.

You are simply dumb Alex. I read a lot of your posts and you are either trolling or are dumb and you cannot even realize that. I dont even get a lot of the time what you really mean.

As far as i know it really came from "the people" there was simply probably too much pressure for a longer time and the gov. simply had to react, so he told the bundesbank to react and it had to "somehow" react. But hey, they still didnt see their gold...

Your assumption that the whole thing is just a trick how to discredit the gold bugs doesnt really seem plausible to me, its just too much work and risk for what? Its simply not worth it. If you fail to see it, than sorry but as i said your are not really bright... Also the term you are using "the elite" seems to me indicate something about you and its not a nice thing. Didnt mean that offensively, im just saying.

I'm dumb because I'm pointing the obvious that ordinary people don't have the power to effect strategic decisions of this type? Like activists can tell the government how many tons or what time plan for delivery will be followed. This is bullshit - you should have realized it the moment you were typing it. Activists demanding repatriation and the government caving in. Yeah, right. Like activism of auditing the fed and fort knox (wonder why that didn't happen... maybe activism doesn't work?)...

The Elite play the news game. Some times they create the scenarios and the news. Other times they play with the story itself that has evolved organically. That's how it works with commodities and you have no idea how the game is played - you think what you read is truth and repeat it like a parrot. Anyone who has a different view than the mainstream theory is "dumb" for your standards and, apparently, people who let the media and alternative media to guide their thinking process are the "smart" ones, like you.

So if today Germany is not getting its gold it means that there are "gold shortages" and if tomorrow Germany gets it, what will this mean? That gold is ok and there are no shortages? Don't you get it? No, apparently you don't.

As for the term elite, call them as you like... globalists, controllers, plutocrats, the 0.00001%, elite, the rulers of this planet etc. These guys own every politician, company, bank etc of the globalized nations. The globalized nations are, essentially, acting as one country with one government giving them directions for all things important like resources (and appear to be in disputes for the unimportant things like fiat money).

The yet-to-be-globalized countries are countries like China, Iran, Venezuela etc. These do not conform to the same type of universal over-control. Globalized countries will not push gold demand upwards precisely because they are controlled, in an orchestrated manner, from atop. They will sell their gold reserves together, they will move gold where needed etc. Non-globalized countries however are quite interested at pursuing their own national interests and as such they will be buying gold, demanding it where there is a problem etc etc.

Germany is a globalized country. On a superficial level "it wants its gold" without any other moves that show that Germany is serious with gold.

On the globalized level its irrelevant if the gold is in the vault of a globalized country or another globalized country. It's like a pair of trousers with 10 pockets. If you have 100$ in one pocket or the other pocket, it doesn't matter - it's all in the same pair of trousers. The only thing that globalists/elite etc care, are that the majority of gold won't leave for non-globalized destinations, or, worse yet, individuals like the citizens of India who are massive hoarders.

Alex i wont argue with you, no offense, someone other might, i think we might be misunderstand each other (english is not my native language) or you are simply just a troll. There are ton of wrong things you have written in several posts...  Someone other might argue with you, i wont.

I also think that the gold bugs are over blowing the importance and future price of gold, and even though i belive gold will go higher i dont belive it will go as much higher. But im also quite sure that the thing with german gold stinks.

And about activism and the thing that people cant affect anything: Oh yes they can. Not a big thing (maybe) but a small thing yes. Germany deciding to get its gold back is nothing compared to FED or fort knox getting audited... But also, who knows how much people wanted their country (german) gold back, im not german so i dont know but there might be a serious issue there, i dont know how much discussed this topic was "in the open", in the media etc. but i belive it was big enought and the pressure was tense it enough, that some politicians HAD to react to it, or some smaller politician took their chance for gaining political points and brought this issue into light in the parlament or i dont know where, there was some petion i think so the parlament had to deal somehow with the issue and they simply agreed and pushed the bundesbank to bring the gold home, i think that only a small percentage if anybody at all knows the real deal with the german gold so their intentions might have been pure.

[Dr Bloggood]

As for the term elite, call them as you like... globalists, controllers, plutocrats, the 0.00001%, elite, the rulers of this planet etc. These guys own every politician, company, bank etc of the globalized nations. The globalized nations are, essentially, acting as one country with one government giving them directions for all things important like resources (and appear to be in disputes for the unimportant things like fiat money).

The yet-to-be-globalized countries are countries like China, Iran, Venezuela etc. These do not conform to the same type of universal over-control. Globalized countries will not push gold demand upwards precisely because they are controlled, in an orchestrated manner, from atop. They will sell their gold reserves together, they will move gold where needed etc. Non-globalized countries however are quite interested at pursuing their own national interests and as such they will be buying gold, demanding it where there is a problem etc etc.

Germany is a globalized country. On a superficial level "it wants its gold" without any other moves that show that Germany is serious with gold.

On the globalized level its irrelevant if the gold is in the vault of a globalized country or another globalized country. It's like a pair of trousers with 10 pockets. If you have 100$ in one pocket or the other pocket, it doesn't matter - it's all in the same pair of trousers. The only thing that globalists/elite etc care, are that the majority of gold won't leave for non-globalized destinations, or, worse yet, individuals like the citizens of India who are massive hoarders.

That's an interesting take on the world! I have never heard anyone putting it like that.

[Kaligulax]

The Federal Reserve seems to be trapped. The Fed is creating approximately 1,000 billion new US dollars annually in order to support the prices of debt related derivatives on the books of the few banks that have been declared to be “to big to fail” and in order to finance the large federal budget deficit that is now too large to be financed by the recycling of Chinese and OPEC trade surpluses into US Treasury debt. The problem with Quantitative Easing is that the annual creation of an enormous supply of new dollars is raising questions among American and foreign holders of vast amounts of US dollar-denominated financial instruments. They see their dollar holdings being diluted by the creation of new dollars that are not the result of an increase in wealth or GDP and for which there is no demand.

[AlexGR]

Quiz: Why hasn't the increase of 1 trillion USD per year not caused hyperinflation, as prominent gold-figures promised that it would?

[NanoAkron]

Quiz: Why hasn't the increase of 1 trillion USD per year not caused hyperinflation, as prominent gold-figures promised that it would?

Quiz: When has any nation been able to survive a debt-to-GDP ratio as large as those of the US and the UK?

Quiz 2: What will people turn to when this all goes tits-up?

[AlexGR]

Quiz: Why hasn't the increase of 1 trillion USD per year not caused hyperinflation, as prominent gold-figures promised that it would?

Quiz: When has any nation been able to survive a debt-to-GDP ratio as large as those of the US and the UK?

It's manageable as long as it's internal debt.

Quiz 2: What will people turn to when this all goes tits-up?

To whatever the elite instruct them to / make it lawful to. Don't forget they've outlawed gold in the past.

A further quiz which addresses something entirely fundamental for the discussion:

Why is gold valuable?

Is it the most heavy? No. (check platinum/irridium/osmium etc)
Is it the most electrically conductive? No. (Silver)
Is it the most thermally conductive? No. (Diamond / Silver)
Is it the most incorruptible? No. (Platinum is better even in aqua regia)
Is it the only colored metal? No. (Copper is too)
Is it the rarest? Not by a large margin (platinum 150 tns/yrs / gold 2500 tns per year, other metals of the PGE group range in the few tons)
Is it catalytic? No. (Platinum / Rhodium / Palladium etc are)
Is it a source of energy, like Uranium? No.

Why are the rich, the countries and ordinary people hoarding it?

[NanoAkron]

Quiz: Why hasn't the increase of 1 trillion USD per year not caused hyperinflation, as prominent gold-figures promised that it would?

Quiz: When has any nation been able to survive a debt-to-GDP ratio as large as those of the US and the UK?

It's manageable as long as it's internal debt.

Quiz 2: What will people turn to when this all goes tits-up?

To whatever the elite instruct them to / make it lawful to. Don't forget they've outlawed gold in the past.

A further quiz which addresses something entirely fundamental for the discussion:

Why is gold valuable?

Is it the most heavy? No. (check platinum/irridium/osmium etc)
Is it the most electrically conductive? No. (Silver)
Is it the most thermally conductive? No. (Diamond / Silver)
Is it the most incorruptible? No. (Platinum is better even in aqua regia)
Is it the only colored metal? No. (Copper is too)
Is it the rarest? Not by a large margin (platinum 150 tns/yrs / gold 2500 tns per year, other metals of the PGE group range in the few tons)
Is it catalytic? No. (Platinum / Rhodium / Palladium etc are)
Is it a source of energy, like Uranium? No.

Why are the rich, the countries and ordinary people hoarding it?

Mikcik is quite right about avoiding future conversations with you. You are coming at this from a very strange angle indeed, with paranoid talk about 'the elite' and worrying about the technical qualities of gold rather than its numismatic value, and with no understanding of the fundamentals of the international debt situation.

I will not be engaging in any further discussions with you Alex.

[AlexGR]

Quiz: Why hasn't the increase of 1 trillion USD per year not caused hyperinflation, as prominent gold-figures promised that it would?

Quiz: When has any nation been able to survive a debt-to-GDP ratio as large as those of the US and the UK?

It's manageable as long as it's internal debt.

Quiz 2: What will people turn to when this all goes tits-up?

To whatever the elite instruct them to / make it lawful to. Don't forget they've outlawed gold in the past.

A further quiz which addresses something entirely fundamental for the discussion:

Why is gold valuable?

Is it the most heavy? No. (check platinum/irridium/osmium etc)
Is it the most electrically conductive? No. (Silver)
Is it the most thermally conductive? No. (Diamond / Silver)
Is it the most incorruptible? No. (Platinum is better even in aqua regia)
Is it the only colored metal? No. (Copper is too)
Is it the rarest? Not by a large margin (platinum 150 tns/yrs / gold 2500 tns per year, other metals of the PGE group range in the few tons)
Is it catalytic? No. (Platinum / Rhodium / Palladium etc are)
Is it a source of energy, like Uranium? No.

Why are the rich, the countries and ordinary people hoarding it?

Mikcik is quite right about avoiding future conversations with you. You are coming at this from a very strange angle indeed, with paranoid talk about 'the elite' and worrying about the technical qualities of gold rather than its numismatic value.

I will not be engaging in any further discussions with you Alex.

It's ok, the question is addressed to all and it is not intended to somehow discredit gold but rather to reveal its true value which is more than most people can appreciate.

However, the truth cannot be revealed if the right questions aren't asked.

[tabnloz]

As for the term elite, call them as you like... globalists, controllers, plutocrats, the 0.00001%, elite, the rulers of this planet etc. These guys own every politician, company, bank etc of the globalized nations. The globalized nations are, essentially, acting as one country with one government giving them directions for all things important like resources (and appear to be in disputes for the unimportant things like fiat money).

The yet-to-be-globalized countries are countries like China, Iran, Venezuela etc. These do not conform to the same type of universal over-control. Globalized countries will not push gold demand upwards precisely because they are controlled, in an orchestrated manner, from atop. They will sell their gold reserves together, they will move gold where needed etc. Non-globalized countries however are quite interested at pursuing their own national interests and as such they will be buying gold, demanding it where there is a problem etc etc.

Germany is a globalized country. On a superficial level "it wants its gold" without any other moves that show that Germany is serious with gold.

On the globalized level its irrelevant if the gold is in the vault of a globalized country or another globalized country. It's like a pair of trousers with 10 pockets. If you have 100$ in one pocket or the other pocket, it doesn't matter - it's all in the same pair of trousers. The only thing that globalists/elite etc care, are that the majority of gold won't leave for non-globalized destinations, or, worse yet, individuals like the citizens of India who are massive hoarders.

That's an interesting take on the world! I have never heard anyone putting it like that.

I always thought that the derivatives markets made everyone so interconnected that the promotion of a 'united front' is paramount via G8, G20 etc etc. The financial sector is just as powerful as government. See the response to the GFC? It was very co-ordinated and focused on saving the financial institutions (although fair to say it was a bit of a cull in the US where 5 became 3). And it needed to be for the sake of those in power because if one country "fell", it could have went all domino.

Some argue that letting institutions fail would have meant the problem was fixed quicker (and I agree) but it more importantly would have meant that the chairs of power would have changed too.

As for the emergence of the Venezuela's, China's etc, on one hand I agree. Venezuela / Chavez was taken down by the US as they upset the control of oil. Of this there is very little doubt. And China seems smart enough to play the game: they know stability is key for them as well as the Western nations but it seems as though they are positioning themselves

[Dr Bloggood]

Quiz: Why hasn't the increase of 1 trillion USD per year not caused hyperinflation, as prominent gold-figures promised that it would?

Because the money is largely not in circulation yet. The velocity of money has to rise. That it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't happen.

[knightcoin]

Gold have a historical / cultural value ... hence it's like sticker our collective mind...

[Dr Bloggood]

A further quiz which addresses something entirely fundamental for the discussion:

Why is gold valuable?

Is it the most heavy? No. (check platinum/irridium/osmium etc)
Is it the most electrically conductive? No. (Silver)
Is it the most thermally conductive? No. (Diamond / Silver)
Is it the most incorruptible? No. (Platinum is better even in aqua regia)
Is it the only colored metal? No. (Copper is too)
Is it the rarest? Not by a large margin (platinum 150 tns/yrs / gold 2500 tns per year, other metals of the PGE group range in the few tons)
Is it catalytic? No. (Platinum / Rhodium / Palladium etc are)
Is it a source of energy, like Uranium? No.

Why are the rich, the countries and ordinary people hoarding it?

Maybe it's a good combination of characteristics. Maybe the fact it's so shiny shiny bling bling does the trick, so it's largely a psychological phenomenon. I don't know.

I just know one thing: Gold has been very valuable for 5000 years, and it will be valuable in the future. Gold and silver is the last "money" on earth to lose its value. The only way gold goes is when NOTHING except the goods themselves is excepted anymore for payment (gas for bananas, cabbage for cigarettes). That's really all you need to know.

Quiz: When has any nation been able to survive a debt-to-GDP ratio as large as those of the US and the UK?

It's manageable as long as it's internal debt.

Seriously!?? OMG

That's not only flat-out wrong, but also not logical at all.

http://blog.milesfranklin.com/we-owe-it-to-ourselves-2

[AlexGR]

Quiz: Why hasn't the increase of 1 trillion USD per year not caused hyperinflation, as prominent gold-figures promised that it would?

Because the money is largely not in circulation yet. The velocity of money has to rise. That it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't happen.

Exactly. If the money is given from Fed to banks to pumping derivatives and other markets then it doesn't go down to the average joe so that he can in turn pump prices.

The average joe experiences severe taxation and almost negative bank credit (the banks want more money in loan payments than they are giving out in loans) which means that instead of swimming in freshly printed paper money, he actually has none of it. Instead he has to scramble in order to sell his possessions at rock-bottom in order to repay his debts and bills.

In this way the paradox of more money and deflationary tendencies can co-exist.

[AlexGR]

Seriously!?? OMG

That's not only flat-out wrong, but also not logical at all.

http://blog.milesfranklin.com/we-owe-it-to-ourselves-2

Its right and logical. If you owe it to yourself you can erase it and restart at some point with not much anomaly. It is external debt (owed from a government) that creates external friction in case of default. Friction that can escalate from threats to embargoes to international diplomacy problems that are quite severe.

[klintay]

gold is supposedly going to go to the moon in the next 6 months if you believe the hype (because of faltering US/China economy will bring back QE with a vengeance).

The price of gold is influence by economic policy/outlook and risk on/risk off trading, US dollar strengthen like all commodities (btc too) that are valued in US dollars

[AlexGR]

Gold have a historical / cultural value ... hence it's like sticker our collective mind...

Yes, but why was/is it valued. That's the question. A tradition starts somewhere and it only endures as far as people don't re-evaluate their priorities. I mean sacrificing lambs was a tradition but then people were like "ok wtf are we doing?"... then people held all kind of erroneous ideas and came the enlightenment... why wasn't the "value" of gold reevaluated as most other things? Even in the early 19th century when platinum was discovered, which had better qualities than gold, why wasn't it crowned as better?

The tradition of love to this "barbarous relic" implies that we still carry barbaric mentality. That defies our intellectual and scientific progression. It defies our economic needs in terms of demand/supply, as the majority of gold is not going for industrial purposes. What is also defied are the discoveries surrounding the new metals of the PGE group which have better qualities. I mean even the ancients understood that iron was better than copper at some stage and used iron instead (the ancient definition of precious metal changed depending their needs). So? Why didn't gold crash when Platinum, for example, came along?

And how does it happen that every single culture values gold? Why is it so universal?

Maybe it's a good combination of characteristics. Maybe the fact it's so shiny shiny bling bling does the trick, so it's largely a psychological phenomenon. I don't know.

I just know one thing: Gold has been very valuable for 5000 years, and it will be valuable in the future. Gold and silver is the last "money" on earth to lose its value. The only way gold goes is when NOTHING except the goods themselves is excepted anymore for payment (gas for bananas, cabbage for cigaretts). That's really all you need to know.

You see the fundamentals regarding the value of gold are largely unknown yet that is quite irrational. How can you "not know" where its value originates but be certain that it will always be valuable? Faith, in lack of substantial evidence of value, is irrational. The only thing that keeps us going is that "other people have valued it too" as a form of self-validation of our own thought process which is, in itself, irrational due to the lack of proper facts. At the moment one realizes this mass paranoia they should stop and say "wait a minute, wtf are we doing here? this is wrong". But nobody does that. Some of the financial elite hint about the useless barbarous metal that offers nothing (and their logic seems sound but nobody hears them anyway because they are full of BS in so many other areas)...

People can't articulate the fundamentals of gold because they don't know them. Contrary to what the elite bullshiters who want people to stay off the gold (so that they can hoard it for themselves) say, these fundamentals DO exist and they are extremely solid - more solid than most can imagine.

They were put in place before a single culture was established on this planet - ie it wasn't the cultures and the people which valued gold but that gold attracted the people's appreciation as a consequence.

When you go to pan some dirt and see a spec of gold in the pan, you rationally know that this is worthless in terms of $$$ (the spec that is) but your heart's BPM rise instantly, along with your excitement which jumps. It wasn't because your parents instructed you to react that way. It wasn't because your culture instructed you to react that way - the reaction was all yours and, if you analyze it, you'll see that its highly enigmatic. There's like a gravity pull / magnetic pull towards gold that seems to be "hardwired" in humans, irregardless of their upbringing, which in turns creates the gold rush effect.

The knowledge of the fundamentals regarding gold is not widely circulating. You have to ask yourself again, and again and again until you reach the right answer. "WHY IS GOLD VALUABLE?". Don't settle for "I don't know" or "others seem to value it now and historically" as a self-circulating answer. If you want to really know the truth you may have to insist a bit more on it.