Trust system abuse / DT2 member Vod is provably dishonestly rating people

[qwk]

My concern about using the "I don't trust someone" standard, is that it encourages a mob mentality and removes any kind of accountability to those leaving ratings

If you look at the way the trust system is built with both trust ratings and a trust list, the latter is the mechanism to cope with the issue you've described.
If you deal "mobster" trust, you'll be excluded from trust lists.
Then again, since most people don't seem to really understand the system, and even less use it accordingly, the elegant mechanics of the trust system just don't seem to work in real life.

If you are unable to articulate how someone is a scammer, as a general rule, a negative rating is not appropriate.

That's a very wise general rule, which would be appropriate for displaying on the page where you leave trust ratings

[Vod]

If you are unable to articulate how someone is a scammer, as a general rule, a negative rating is not appropriate.

That's a very wise general rule, which would be appropriate for displaying on the page where you leave trust ratings

Have you seen the dozens of negative trust ratings that scammer has left others with no reference?

Why would you reward such a hypocrite with merit?   

[Anduck]

If you are unable to articulate how someone is a scammer, as a general rule, a negative rating is not appropriate.

That's a very wise general rule, which would be appropriate for displaying on the page where you leave trust ratings

Have you seen the dozens of negative trust ratings that scammer has left others with no reference?

Why would you reward such a hypocrite with merit?  

Vod. Let's not let important posts get drowned.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4415201.msg39447493#msg39447493
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4415201.msg39588914#msg39588914
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4415201.msg40529245#msg40529245
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4415201.msg40537284#msg40537284
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4415201.msg40538407#msg40538407


Stop derailing and try to back up your dishonest & derogatory claims about me. For one example, your current rating to me is inconsistent with your reasoning e.g. referenced in the fifth link above.

Everyone: See the links for further pointers, or read this thread completely. No benefit of doubt anymore: Vod should be dropped from Default Trust list. Untrustworthy and dishonest people do not belong to DT list in any case. No matter if they rate correctly most of the times. When rated provably incorrectly (dishonest rating after scummy blackmailing attempt), and their ego is too big to go back to acknowledge and fix their wrongdoings, they simply do not belong to Default Trust list.

[Vod]

Stop derailing

Quickseller abusing the trust system is on topic.

[digaran]

Yes I satire much. :/

I'm here to suggest a way out for Anduck, you could easily go and farm trust, here is how:

Find a DT member and do some trading with them, they will leave you a positive trust and nobody could ever counter that if you don't bid on your own auctions or do something tag worthy. don't wait for Vod's forgiveness, after all he is on DT because of bullying other people.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Find a DT member and do some trading with them, they will leave you a positive trust and nobody could ever counter that if you don't bid on your own auctions or do something tag worthy.

Taking out loans or doing trades that you don't want or need for the sole purpose of appearing more trustworthy is a pretty untrustworthy thing to do. In all likelihood this kind of behaviour would simply earn you more red trust.

It's a stupid idea, but I'm not surprised in the least that digaran would suggest it.

[digaran]

Find a DT member and do some trading with them, they will leave you a positive trust and nobody could ever counter that if you don't bid on your own auctions or do something tag worthy.

Taking out loans or doing trades that you don't want or need for the sole purpose of appearing more trustworthy is a pretty untrustworthy thing to do. In all likelihood this kind of behaviour would simply earn you more red trust.

It's a stupid idea, but I'm not surprised in the least that digaran would suggest it.

So you saying it is wrong to do trades with DT members in hopes of receiving positive trust from them after getting tagged red? would you prefer buying trust by the means of counter feedback?
So you also agree that people shouldn't go and farm trust after getting tagged? because people have done this for years, if you don't believe me, look at several positive trusts left on profiles after they got tagged red. or rather look at counter feedbacks left on profiles after getting tagged red.

[suchmoon]

So you saying it is wrong to do trades with DT members in hopes of receiving positive trust from them after getting tagged red? would you prefer buying trust by the means of counter feedback?
So you also agree that people shouldn't go and farm trust after getting tagged? because people have done this for years, if you don't believe me, look at several positive trusts left on profiles after they got tagged red. or rather look at counter feedbacks left on profiles after getting tagged red.

I'm not sure about o_e_l_e_o and others, but I would certainly prefer if you posted less of your made up nonsense and more of actual facts and proof, if any.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I'm not sure about o_e_l_e_o and others, but I would certainly prefer if you posted less of your made up nonsense and more of actual facts and proof, if any.

We can but dream.

[Anduck]

Can't allow DT members like Vod to abuse their position. Read this thread to learn what's going on. Start from e.g. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4415201.msg40906371#msg40906371

[cryptobobo]

Theymos wont listen to your moaning,i was tagged because of the alts accounts,didnt cheat bounties nor scammed people..

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4624272.0 hilariousandco who is a global moderator does know that my reds are inappropriate.
The Pharmacist has his own rules,this forum is being run by these DT Members.

If theres only one can remove these abusers it is Theymos.

[Anduck]

Bump.

Ideas are needed to make trust system better. As said before, I think adding more DT1 members would improve the situation. Of course that drops the "trustness" as perceived e.g. by forum staff, but on the other hand the trust system is supposed to be used in a way where people should make their own trust lists/networks instead of trusting default trust list. In a way, adding more DT1 members would improve both of these goals: there would be less fear of getting e.g. "dropped" (from the DT list) for arbitrary/silly reasons, more decentralization (wider amount of people "in charge") etc. AND people would want to adjust / make own trust lists because they would detect *individual* wrongdoing making them want to correct it. Such "individual wrongdoing" doesn't affect many in the current system, so it is largely dismissed in the community.
Maybe there should be official guidelines about the *community acceptable* use of trust system. Then people would better know how to use the trust system. E.g. will you rate or will you not rate, who will you exclude, who will you not. Do you want to signal others something or do you want to record something for your own information, what are the "offences" to earn red trust, what means getting positive trust --and so on.

As an example (my personal experience) about the problems, there's this case where Vod rates me provably dishonestly. He also claims other things and presents no evidence, proof or anything to back those claims. And he blackmailed me. Vods standing in the DT system is too strong as people who have added him there are either inactive or do not care. This means that Vod can keep on doing whatever he wants, and everyone knows it. It shouldn't be like this. One shouldn't be able to freely harass others as a salary for doing good deeds for the community. Red trust from DT1/DT2 member has (or can have) significant negative effect on the target, that's the reality right now.

[pugman]

Bump.

Ideas are needed to make trust system better. As said before, I think adding more DT1 members would improve the situation. Of course that drops the "trustness" as perceived e.g. by forum staff, but on the other hand the trust system is supposed to be used in a way where people should make their own trust lists/networks instead of trusting default trust list. In a way, adding more DT1 members would improve both of these goals: there would be less fear of getting e.g. "dropped" (from the DT list) for arbitrary/silly reasons, more decentralization (wider amount of people "in charge") etc. AND people would want to adjust / make own trust lists because they would detect *individual* wrongdoing making them want to correct it. Such "individual wrongdoing" doesn't affect many in the current system, so it is largely dismissed in the community.
Maybe there should be official guidelines about the *community acceptable* use of trust system. Then people would better know how to use the trust system. E.g. will you rate or will you not rate, who will you exclude, who will you not. Do you want to signal others something or do you want to record something for your own information, what are the "offences" to earn red trust, what means getting positive trust --and so on.

As an example (my personal experience) about the problems, there's this case where Vod rates me provably dishonestly. He also claims other things and presents no evidence, proof or anything to back those claims. And he blackmailed me. Vods standing in the DT system is too strong as people who have added him there are either inactive or do not care. This means that Vod can keep on doing whatever he wants, and everyone knows it. It shouldn't be like this. One shouldn't be able to freely harass others as a salary for doing good deeds for the community. Red trust from DT1/DT2 member has (or can have) significant negative effect on the target, that's the reality right now.

For adding more DT1 members, theymos needs to personally trust people. And, no one has been added in DT1 for months now, if not years. DeaDTerra was removed from DT1.  theymos wants it to be decentralized but the trust system is broken, and I am no fan of it. Its used for everything but for what it was initially intended for, which is both good and bad. People rely on the trust system when not required, and don't rely on it when its most required. Some people actually want TheOldScammerTag to come back. That would make the trusts system to be centralized, but I would say its no different than the current "decentralized" trust system.

Of course that drops the "trustness" as perceived e.g. by forum staff, but on the other hand the trust system is supposed to be used in a way where people should make their own trust lists/networks instead of trusting default trust list.

What do you mean by this,emphasis on the "trustness as perceived e.g. by forum staff". I find it a little hard to comprehend, as I am not a native English speaker.

[r1s2g3]

Theymos wont listen to your moaning,i was tagged because of the alts accounts,didnt cheat bounties nor scammed people..

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4624272.0 hilariousandco who is a global moderator does know that my reds are inappropriate.
The Pharmacist has his own rules,this forum is being run by these DT Members.

If theres only one can remove these abusers it is Theymos.

Nobody banned you in this forum for Alt accounts , so forum rules are followed.
Since I do not see you made your Alt account public and probably you cheated the bounties and get busted, so here the DT ratings come into picture.

[eddie13]

The trust system is like a nuclear weapon..
Some times it is used on others if they don't step in line..
It turns scoffs between old members into MAD, mutually assured destruction, wars..
Adding more DT members is like nuclear proliferation..
If you have nukes and they don't, you don't want them to get nukes..
Unless you are empowering allies, puppet states.. 

It is against the interest of nuclear trust holders to spread it, making themselves more common and less powerful relatively, while those without trust will naturally be in favor of joining the party..
If their was a vote the elites would lose hands down but this ain't no democracy, they own the media..

[Anduck]

Of course that drops the "trustness" as perceived e.g. by forum staff, but on the other hand the trust system is supposed to be used in a way where people should make their own trust lists/networks instead of trusting default trust list.

What do you mean by this,emphasis on the "trustness as perceived e.g. by forum staff". I find it a little hard to comprehend, as I am not a native English speaker.

I mean the factor of how trusted the DT is (= how trusted are the people in DT) seen from the DT administrator point of view. It is only their view, but they are still in full control of DT.

[Anduck]

It looks like a ton of new people, especially non-English speakers, think that DT are staff/moderators. They're not entirely wrong. After all, DT members *are* capable of effectively "banning" accounts from conducting any business here.

[Anduck]

These issues are still unsolved. DT system needs major changes. It's a huge mess and power fight around the DT right now. Please do something about it. Some measures to disincentivize abusal of DT is needed. E.g. in my case, Vod apparently continues to do what he does after misusing and lying about me, and others, via the DT system. He should not be in the DT -- then his lies would be almost completely irrelevant.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

It looks like a ton of new people, especially non-English speakers, think that DT are staff/moderators. They're not entirely wrong. After all, DT members *are* capable of effectively "banning" accounts from conducting any business here.

That's not true, though.  I've seen cases where people with negs from DT have no trouble whatsoever doing deals here, depending on what the feedback was for, of course.  A lot of members apparently don't even check a person's trust page before deciding whether to transact with that person--and that's how many of them get scammed, too.

In your case, I would check carefully to see that you hadn't employed a shill on an auction of yours before I bid on it, but otherwise I'd have no issues dealing with you because of all the other positives you've received.  Negative trust from DT members isn't the kiss of death a lot of people think it is.

It's a huge mess and power fight around the DT right now. Please do something about it. Some measures to disincentivize abusal of DT is needed.

It's not such a huge mess, though there are problems.  I've had to remove some negatives that I've left when evidence showed that I left them wrongly, and I suspect there will be more.  Vod's not part of that sort of issue, IMO.  His feedbacks are generally very accurate, and he has a reputation of being quite fair. 

However, I agree with his feedback on you and that what you did was extremely scammy.  There's no auction house in the world that I know of that would allow someone to place a bid on his own auction--even employing shill bidders is almost universally either frowned upon or illegal.  If you realize what you did was wrong (and I haven't been following all of your posts on this) and haven't repeated it, Vod might be kind enough to remove his neg, though I wouldn't count on it.  His rating was honest.  But you left not one, but two retaliatory negs on him and I don't expect that's going to sway his opinion in your favor.

[Anduck]

It looks like a ton of new people, especially non-English speakers, think that DT are staff/moderators. They're not entirely wrong. After all, DT members *are* capable of effectively "banning" accounts from conducting any business here.

That's not true, though.  I've seen cases where people with negs from DT have no trouble whatsoever doing deals here, depending on what the feedback was for, of course.  A lot of members apparently don't even check a person's trust page before deciding whether to transact with that person--and that's how many of them get scammed, too.

You're being intellectually dishonest. It's irrelevant to talk about marginal cases. Of course negative trust affects the ability to conduct business, and in many cases, prevents people from conducting business. Obviously one doesn't want to trade with someone whose account page has a bright red notice saying "Warning: Trade with extreme caution!". This of course doesn't mean that *everyone* will be unable to conduct business with *everyone*. Some people see through bullshit red ratings, but for big majority it's a huge red flag and trading business is conducted elsewhere.

In your case, I would check carefully to see that you hadn't employed a shill on an auction of yours before I bid on it, but otherwise I'd have no issues dealing with you because of all the other positives you've received.  Negative trust from DT members isn't the kiss of death a lot of people think it is.

Alright. I don't really understand why you're highlighting that you "would check carefully to see that you hadn't employed a shill on an auction of yours". As you *should* know by now, regardless of the lies presented by some idiot, I've not shill-bidded. I've bidded on my own auction on my own account as a measure of concealed reserve price. This was one-time case 2-3 years ago. This is completely normal in various auctions, but not in bitcointalk auctions -- which I learned back then. Btw, I don't care about the shitty account and trust games people play here -- I'm not part of that.

Someone not too dense would maybe understand to look at other factors here. Isn't it a bit weird that someone pops up and starts red-rating after years since some event he wasn't even part of and actually commented earlier that he saw nothing wrong in the said event? Please read this thread and follow the links to find out that Vod is bullshitting and nobody gives a shit. In some other cases where Vod nor I are in, people have feared to say anything against the wrongdoer because getting red-rates is extremely easy and getting dropped from DT2 is very easy too. It's so very fragile for active members and on the other hand so damn rigid if you're on DT1 or DT2'd by people not actively around anymore.

It's a huge mess and power fight around the DT right now. Please do something about it. Some measures to disincentivize abusal of DT is needed.

It's not such a huge mess, though there are problems.  I've had to remove some negatives that I've left when evidence showed that I left them wrongly, and I suspect there will be more.  Vod's not part of that sort of issue, IMO.  His feedbacks are generally very accurate, and he has a reputation of being quite fair.  

It doesn't present to an individual as a huge mess unless you're a victim of it. Many are. Naturally you don't feel the pain, because your say actually weights, due to being in DT. You have the tools to work against potential abusers, which there are not too many, because who would go against someone with a gun? I'm with no gun, so Vod can currently freely misuse his position against me.

However, I agree with his feedback on you and that what you did was extremely scammy.  There's no auction house in the world that I know of that would allow someone to place a bid on his own auction--even employing shill bidders is almost universally either frowned upon or illegal.  If you realize what you did was wrong (and I haven't been following all of your posts on this) and haven't repeated it, Vod might be kind enough to remove his neg, though I wouldn't count on it.  His rating was honest.  But you left not one, but two retaliatory negs on him and I don't expect that's going to sway his opinion in your favor.

You agree with the proven lies he presents in his feedback?

I've not scammed anyone, I've not acted in a scammy way. But I know it's easy to think like that when you don't think about it properly. There's absolutely nothing scammy in having a concealed reserve price, presented as the bidder bidding on the auction. Auction rules are same for everyone. Vod also agreed that I did nothing scammy in there. Later he started, regardless of that, using it as a weapon against me due to other reasons. This auction event is the only thing he can find about me that can remotely trigger emotions like it does on e.g. you. Think about it and understand that self-bidding on an auction carries no scammy behavior at all.  In any case, this Vod's rating towards me is not even about that. Read the damn thread!

His rating was honest.

His rating is proven to be dishonest. Here's the said rating: "Scammed other users by bidding on his own auction. States he does not believe this is unethical. Also admitted to me in PM he lied about this matter."

First of all, nobody was scammed. Auction was held according to the stated rules. In my country it's perfectly normal for the auctioneer to take part in the auction too. Auctioneer is only carrying the technical process of the auction -- nothing more. He has no different position, when he's bidding, than any other bidder. And again, that auction event is only a tool used by Vod, as he has absolutely nothing else to present that would trigger emotions on people about me. Secondly, I've *not* admitted to any lying in any messages whatsoever. I've not lied. It's complete bullshit by Vod. How is that "honest" for you?

But you left not one, but two retaliatory negs on him and I don't expect that's going to sway his opinion in your favor.

Why are you commenting things you don't know about?  Vod rated me twice and removed the other rating. Someone positively rated me which triggered Vod to reinstate the red trust score on me by sending a new red rating. Later Vod removed it as the positive rating was also removed after "discussions" with DT.

My two ratings are about two separate issues. First him calling me a scammer for no reason, and second for acting in an incredibly unresponsible, pathetic and scummy way while being on DT.