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Author Topic: Trust system abuse / DT2 member Vod is provably dishonestly rating people  (Read 5282 times)
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November 27, 2018, 10:12:09 PM
 #441

Shill bidding is bidding on the auction by using other people or accounts to drive the price up. Shill bidding is not the same as auctioneer bidding on the item. Ebay only talks about shill bidding, not self-bidding as self-bidding is not possible on their platform. Shill bidding is a crime, yes, but self-bidding is not. Otherwise many auction houses in Europe would operate illegally.

Hope the difference between auctioneer bid and shill bid is now clarified. They're totally different things. First one is a type of concealed reserve price while the latter is dishonest activity to fake price up.



Are you talking about an auctioneer that doesn't own an item legitimately purchasing it from an auction for themselves? You are the seller, you bid on your own item. Its shill bidding.


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November 27, 2018, 10:17:08 PM
 #442

Are you talking about an auctioneer that doesn't own an item legitimately purchasing it from an auction for themselves? You are the seller, you bid on your own item. Its shill bidding.

Talking about an auctioneer who owns or doesn't own the auctioned item. Legitimately purchasing it from the auction for themselves. The auctioneer is just the technical operator of the auction and has no say in how the auction rolls. Therefore he's on the same level with other bidders, he has no decreased or increased position to act as a bidder too.

The word "shill" itself refers to something being done in hidden. Nothing was done in hidden in my auction. There was no attempts to falsify bidding activity, which is what shill bidding is.

Also:



Also:
Here's something related to this: https://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/can-the-seller-bid-at-auction/

Quote
Therefore, if the seller bids then a reserve has been placed on the property selling — thus the auction would have to be a “with reserve” auction, and not a “without reserve” auction.

The default in U.S. law (if that interests someone) is that all auctions are with reserve. More about this earlier in this thread.

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November 27, 2018, 10:22:02 PM
Merited by LoyceV (1)
 #443

This has been discussed across multiple threads multiple times over the last several months, and unfortunately Anduck flat out refuses to even consider that he may be in the wrong here, despite overwhelming consensus against him. I'm not sure there is any point continuing this line of discussion.

Honestly Anduck, although the forum doesn't agree with your shill bidding, all you had to say was "You're right, I should have just set a reserve price or started the auction at a higher price. It won't happen again." and a lot of people would have been on your side considering your otherwise excellent trust history. Your ongoing arguing that somehow paying yourself to win your own auction is legitimate is making you appear less trustworthy the longer it continues.


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November 27, 2018, 10:24:10 PM
Merited by o_e_l_e_o (2)
 #444

How is adding you to DT changing anything?

Would maybe make Vod think about his behavior and would maybe make him want to find a resolution, just like when he thought I was on DT. I assume this "will to seek for resolution" would happen as it happened when he thought I was on DT. Also I would obviously do what I can to portray DT as the list of people unlikely to scam, and nothing else.

No, it wouldn't.  You're confusing trust and DT.  You just want to harm Vod for his use of the trust system.  The proper punishment for that would be removal from DT.  Adding you to DT is fighting fire with fire, and would not only be the incorrect way to handle it, as Vod isn't like to scam according to you, which you say is the reason for DT; but it would also reward you for doing the wrong thing, which is wanting to punish Vod's trust rating for his judgement in leaving ratings.  I've alluded to you being a hypocrite in this sense, as you've left owlcatz trust and he has misused the trust system to try and make me appear to be a scammer.  So why wouldn't owlcatz get the same negative from you that you want to appear on Vod?  It's because you are after a personal vendetta, nothing more.  You have to view things from the perspective of the forum, not from the perspective of yourself.  You also need to learn the difference between trust ratings, and being on default trust.
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November 27, 2018, 10:27:46 PM
Merited by The Pharmacist (2)
 #445

Again, you can't bid on your own item. A bid is a legally binding contract, and you can't enter a contract with yourself. If user A bids $10 on something, that bid means that they have entered a contract to pay $10 for the item, on the condition that a new contract (bid) doesn't outbid them. If the owner then bids $15, that bid isn't valid because the owner cannot enter a contract to pay oneself, so the current bid would still be $10 from user A.

If you are arguing that Shill bidding implies requires that you would have needed to placed a bid from an account named Anduck1, lets for the sake of argument that you are right and its not illegal. It is however still a void bid, and your offense is not honoring an auction, rather than trying to inflate the price.

If I'm selling a car worth $20,000 and the bid only gets up to $10,000. I can't just yell, I bid 1 billion dollars! To save me from having to sell the car.

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November 27, 2018, 10:28:00 PM
 #446

This has been discussed across multiple threads multiple times over the last several months, and unfortunately Anduck flat out refuses to even consider that he may be in the wrong here, despite overwhelming consensus against him. I'm not sure there is any point continuing this line of discussion.

Vod blackmailing me and then red-rating me when I don't remove my rating, that's not what I should be silent about or am wrong about. The consensus seems to be on my side about this, as should be. The only question here still is that auction -- which is btw unrelated to the Vod's unjust rating. (It's just the only tool Vod could find against me, as he was also on my side that it's not untrustworthy to self-bid, right on the same day his "opinion" changed due to certain events unrelated to the auction.)

all you had to say was "You're right, I should have just set a reserve price or started the auction at a higher price. It won't happen again."

I did say that, many times. I should've done all that. Yet what I did was not scamming or dishonest in any way.

Your ongoing arguing that somehow paying yourself to win your own auction is legitimate is making you appear more less trustworthy the longer it continues.

It is legitimate. People can have different opinions, but it is legitimate nonetheless. I understand that many (at first) see it as not, as people are not really familiar with auction standards, but it truly is not scamming or dishonesty in any way. It's a common practice in Finland and around Europe, at least. It sounds wrong, but when thinking more about it, it's really not. At worst, it's inconvenient and I agree with that -- hence defining auctions more carefully since that.

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November 27, 2018, 10:35:25 PM
 #447

Again, you can't bid on your own item. A bid is a legally binding contract, and you can't enter a contract with yourself. If user A bids $10 on something, that bid means that they have entered a contract to pay $10 for the item, on the condition that a new contract (bid) doesn't outbid them. If the owner then bids $15, that bid isn't valid because the owner cannot enter a contract to pay oneself, so the current bid would still be $10 from user A.

If you are arguing that Shill bidding implies requires that you would have needed to placed a bid from an account named Anduck1, lets for the sake of argument that you are right and its not illegal. It is however still a void bid, and your offense is not honoring an auction, rather than trying to inflate the price.

The text I linked below argues that yes, you can bid on your own item even in the USA auctions.

The sold item/property/whatever is set in the auction contract. That contract can be won by anyone. When the item is set to be auctioned, it is no-ones at that point, but the auction contracts'. Again, being the owner of the item doesn't increase or decrease ones ability to also act as a bidder. It's a form of reserve price, if you want to think about it that way.

If I'm selling a car worth $20,000 and the bid only gets up to $10,000. I can't just yell, I bid 1 billion dollars! To save me from having to sell the car.

Yes, yes you actually can. Auctions are not always "penny auctions" or "forced sale" auctions. Auctions are not always to get rid of the item at any price. I found this text when Googling about this: https://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/can-the-seller-bid-at-auction/


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November 27, 2018, 10:36:54 PM
 #448

The text I linked below argues that yes, you can bid on your own item even in the USA auctions.

Try to bid on your own eBay auction and let me know how that works out for you.

First rule when you find yourself in a hole is to stop digging.  Please consider this line of thought.
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November 27, 2018, 10:38:16 PM
 #449

The text I linked below argues that yes, you can bid on your own item even in the USA auctions.

Try to bid on your own eBay auction and let me know how that works out for you.

Ebay standards != all auction standards. Ebay doesn't enable sellers to bid on their items. Some auction standards do.

First rule when you find yourself in a hole is to stop digging.  Please consider this line of thought.

What hole am I in? People only seem to talk about this auction, even though it has nothing to do with Vod's abuse. He blackmailed/threatened me (basically "I will red-rate you if you don't remove your rating") and then red-rated when I didn't do as he wanted. That is the reason for his red rating towards me. Not any auction.

Btw, again, this Vod abuse case is NOT RELATED to any auction; read what happened.

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November 27, 2018, 10:48:09 PM
 #450


The text I linked below argues that yes, you can bid on your own item even in the USA auctions.

The sold item/property/whatever is set in the auction contract. That contract can be won by anyone. When the item is set to be auctioned, it is no-ones at that point, but the auction contracts'. Again, being the owner of the item doesn't increase or decrease ones ability to also act as a bidder. It's a form of reserve price, if you want to think about it that way.

If I'm selling a car worth $20,000 and the bid only gets up to $10,000. I can't just yell, I bid 1 billion dollars! To save me from having to sell the car.

Yes, yes you actually can. Auctions are not always "penny auctions" or "forced sale" auctions. Auctions are not always to get rid of the item at any price. I found this text when Googling about this: https://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/can-the-seller-bid-at-auction/



A wordpress link doesn't mitigate the pages of legal documents that say you cant. So you are saying auctions are entirely pointless? I can immediately invalidate any auction that I might ever take part in by bidding a bazillion dollars on anything that I decide I don't want to sell, and the millions of breach of contract lawsuits against auction violators are just because they didn't know this magic rule? You found the loophole that made auctions entirely unenforceable after 3,000 years of history, congrats I suppose.
I can find you a bunch of links about why its our natural right as competitive animals to murder each other, and probably quite a few people that agree, but the law seems to disagree.

We don't even need to discuss law here for that matter. Lets say I concede and say you are right. Even if its legally acceptable, you don't think you are worthy of negative feedback for deceptive practices? Someone who might consider entering an auction you run shouldn't have the information that you don't honor your auctions, and they are wasting their time? I completely agree that its worthy of negative feedback. Vod was right, no one is out to get you, look at your own practices objectively and decide whether you'd feel wronged if it happened to you.

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November 27, 2018, 10:51:51 PM
 #451

Quote
Secondly, that if the seller wants to reserve the right to bid, that such must be disclosed

You didn't disclose your intention to bid, so even your cherry picked source doesn't actually support your position.

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November 27, 2018, 10:55:56 PM
 #452

A wordpress link doesn't mitigate the pages of legal documents that say you cant.

That guy seems to be an expert of auctions...
The author of that site, quoted from his site:
Quote
Mike Brandly began his auction career in 1979.  He is president of Brandly & Associates, Inc. and is an Auctioneer for RES Auction Services, a large real estate auction brokerage based in Ohio. Mr. Brandly’s appraisal company completes over 150 appraisals per year for Probate, Civil and Bankruptcy cases. He holds a weekly auction at his facility in Groveport, Ohio, a twice-monthly car auction for Goodwill Columbus (Ohio,) various on-site auctions and other special-event auctions throughout the United States.

He seems to know his business. What "pages of legal documents" are you talking about? Any source/links?

So you are saying auctions are entirely pointless?

No. I am saying that not all auctions are forced sale auctions.


Even if its legally acceptable, you don't think you are worthy of negative feedback for deceptive practices?

I don't think it was deceptive. It certainly wasn't meant as deceptive. Again, it is common practice in my country (Finland).

Quote
Secondly, that if the seller wants to reserve the right to bid, that such must be disclosed

You didn't disclose your intention to bid, so even your cherry picked source doesn't actually support your position.

You ignored the "almost all state law says" part. Almost all. Not all. Also it's just USA. Different auction standards exist. It's common in Europe, as TMAN has said earlier too, that disclosing such intention to bid doesn't necessarily need to be disclosed.

It's not cherry-picked. You can go search articles about auctioneer bidding, you won't find many.. You'll see the one I found was the first one in google results.


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November 27, 2018, 11:06:59 PM
 #453

A wordpress link doesn't mitigate the pages of legal documents that say you cant.

That guy seems to be an expert of auctions...
The author of that site, quoted from his site:
Quote
Mike Brandly began his auction career in 1979.  He is president of Brandly & Associates, Inc. and is an Auctioneer for RES Auction Services, a large real estate auction brokerage based in Ohio. Mr. Brandly’s appraisal company completes over 150 appraisals per year for Probate, Civil and Bankruptcy cases. He holds a weekly auction at his facility in Groveport, Ohio, a twice-monthly car auction for Goodwill Columbus (Ohio,) various on-site auctions and other special-event auctions throughout the United States.

He seems to know his business. What "pages of legal documents" are you talking about? Any source/links?

So you are saying auctions are entirely pointless?

No. I am saying that not all auctions are forced sale auctions.


Even if its legally acceptable, you don't think you are worthy of negative feedback for deceptive practices?

I don't think it was deceptive. It certainly wasn't meant as deceptive. Again, it is common practice in my country (Finland).

Quote
Secondly, that if the seller wants to reserve the right to bid, that such must be disclosed

You didn't disclose your intention to bid, so even your cherry picked source doesn't actually support your position.

You ignored the "almost all state law says" part. Almost all. Not all. Also it's just USA. Different auction standards exist. It's common in Europe, as TMAN has said earlier too, that disclosing such intention to bid doesn't necessarily need to be disclosed.

It's not cherry-picked. You can go search articles about auctioneer bidding, you won't find many.. You'll see the one I found was the first one in google results.



Trust is not the law. It is legal, sometimes, to bid on your own auction but usually, 99% of the times you have to inform the buyers. Bidding on your own auction is pretty scammy behavior in my opinion.

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November 27, 2018, 11:07:44 PM
 #454

It's common in Europe, as TMAN has said earlier too, that disclosing such intention to bid doesn't necessarily need to be disclosed.

TMAN has a documented past of manipulating auctions for his own goods.  I'm not sure you should be using him as a source.
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November 27, 2018, 11:09:27 PM
 #455

It's common in Europe, as TMAN has said earlier too, that disclosing such intention to bid doesn't necessarily need to be disclosed.

TMAN has a documented past of manipulating auctions for his own goods.  I'm not sure you should be using him as a source.

I am saying that in Europe it is common.

In other news, I see SaltySpitoon went and left me a fresh red rating.

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November 27, 2018, 11:10:03 PM
Merited by suchmoon (4)
 #456

If theres anything I've learned from the flat earth guys, or the super religious, its that you can't have a rational discussion when you can't agree on a basis. If I spend a few hours of my time finding cases of where people have been arrested or fined for self bidding on Ebay, you'll say that Ebay is not the same as your case. If I point out that auction houses do self bid, but they are closed soon after, you'll find some excuse for that. If I try to approach by using the definition of a bid as a contract, you'll disagree by another basis that we won't be able to come to an agreement on. I'll just end up frustrated, so there is no point. If you don't see wrong as wrong in the same way that 99.9% of other people do, so be it.

I've made my position clear and you've made yours. I added some feedback of my own just so you don't need to worry about Vod anymore.

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November 27, 2018, 11:13:32 PM
 #457

I've made my position clear and you've made yours. I added some feedback of my own just so you don't need to worry about Vod anymore.

I truly hope theymos deletes the whole DT list....

You obviously think that you know auctions better than the president of Brandly & Associates, Inc.

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November 27, 2018, 11:22:42 PM
 #458

If you don't see wrong as wrong in the same way that 99.9% of other people do, so be it.

Please red-rate theymos as well, as he agrees with me that self-bidding is not scammy. Also red-rate Vod who said he doesn't see my actions there as untrustworthy. Also red-rate everyone else agreeing with me. Nice example of DT position misuse, SaltySpitoon.

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November 27, 2018, 11:26:10 PM
 #459

Please red-rate theymos as well, as he agrees with me that self-bidding is not scammy. Also red-rate Vod who said he doesn't see my actions there as untrustworthy. Also red-rate everyone else agreeing with me. Nice example of DT position misuse, SaltySpitoon.

I see your actions as you not honoring an auction, and thats untrustworthy. My feedback is just a warning for anyone who might be interested in participating in an auction that you run, that I'd recommend against it. When Theymos doesn't honor an auction, I'll leave him negative feedback as well.

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November 27, 2018, 11:28:37 PM
 #460

Also red-rate everyone else agreeing with me. Nice example of DT position misuse, SaltySpitoon.

Actually using the trust system for merely agreeing/disagreeing like you're suggesting would be more likely a misuse. You got your rating for a specific trade activity. Not the same thing.

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