★ ZEIT ★ [COMMUNITY & KNIGHTS] [ULTRA LOW INFLATION] [MICRO-PAYMENTS]

[pineapples]

In the Continuing Attacks on Larger Denominations of FIAT Currency News

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/12/venezuelans-scramble-to-ditch-largest-bill-ahead-of-surprise-removal.html 

Venezuelans hastily dumped the country's 100-bolivar bill, the largest denomination, on Monday after the government said it would be pulled from circulation as the crisis-wracked nation suffers what is believed to be the world's highest inflation.

Socialist President Nicolas Maduro said the withdrawal of the bill — worth just 2 U.S. cents on the black market — was needed to reduce contraband of the bills on the Venezuela-Colombia border. The 100-bolivar note will be removed in 72 hours as of Tuesday, state media said on Monday, with new, higher-denomination bills due on Thursday.

Despite heavy printing of the 100-bolivar bills — 2.3 billion this year alone out of 6.1 billion in total — they are in short supply.

Luis Volcanes, 36, had for six weeks withdrawn cash every day but on Monday ran around with a big brown envelope trying to deposit that same money, only to find cash machines at four banks in a row were not working.

"This seems crazy, like the government did this on a whim. I don't know what I'm going to do," Volcanes said as people trickled in and out of a bank in Caracas, complaining none of the machines worked.

One man unable to deposit money yelled, "This is total chaos!"

Adding to the aggravation, Monday was a bank holiday, meaning there were no tellers. Venezuelans have 10 days to exchange the notes at the central bank.

While many business were not accepting 100-bolivar bills, poor people living day to day could not afford to reject cash and many were using the bills to buy food for the day.

"I'll take everything you can give me to eat today," said taxi driver Jose Manuel Henrique, 49, whose cash income goes entirely to feeding his two children. Still, Henrique, a former supporter of late socialist leader Hugo Chavez, was annoyed.

"The government can't get anything right. This wasn't thought out."

 

this is the most curious decisions on govt part.
they must have a seeming rationale to remove these handy note, but it seems it will do a lot of damage to the local economy as one of it's short term introductory effects.

[Derek492]

The problem I see with just voting and changing your parameters, is that what you are doing is essentially no different than what the fiat money central banks do when they meet and vote on changing their interest rates and parameters. I don't think you should change your coin unless it is an emergency or something like that. Just wanted to say something, maybe give it some thought. The whole point of crypto to me is to have something that is all automatic and eliminating third party risk. I think currencies should be built and let their design play out, for better or for worse. If people invested thinking the coin is going to be one way forever, and it turns out it's not going to happen, you may have some disgruntled people. Hard forking an established coin is a very serious and big deal imo should not ever be done. Imo, by changing your coin you run the risk of the coin losing trust. Because it means ultimately the design failed, so you capitulated and essentially created a new coin. New parameters that was not established from the beginning = new coin. A new coin with pre-established distribution, essentially equates to being a full premine or ICO because the distribution isn't fair for people to find out about the change before any investment happens.   I would be very careful since (correct me if I'm wrong) these changes you are proposing were not part of the original parameter goal and disclosure at the coin's launch and mining phase.  
If you do something like this, how can you say the coin operates without oversight and control by banks or government, when essentially what you'd be doing is the same thing. A small group of people that is governing the coin is a small government but is still a government. Ideally, imo there should be no voting or democracy, it should all be hard coded into the coin and any changes automatic based on code without any human supervision or intervention.

Full disclosure, I currently don't hold any ZEIT, but I respect it.  Things like this make me hold off as well since things seem changeable and up in the air whenever.  Who knows what a coin will really be in 10 years, will it be changed for the better for sure? How do you know?  I highly recommend not changing a coin just to manipulate the market. It might backfire. Just my 2 zeits for ya! Took me some time to write these thoughts.
 

[kiklo]

The problem I see with just voting and changing your parameters, is that what you are doing is essentially no different than what the fiat money central banks do when they meet and vote on changing their interest rates and parameters. I don't think you should change your coin unless it is an emergency or something like that. Just wanted to say something, maybe give it some thought. The whole point of crypto to me is to have something that is all automatic and eliminating third party risk. I think currencies should be built and let their design play out, for better or for worse. If people invested thinking the coin is going to be one way forever, and it turns out it's not going to happen, you may have some disgruntled people. Hard forking an established coin is a very serious and big deal imo should not ever be done. Imo, by changing your coin you run the risk of the coin losing trust. Because it means ultimately the design failed, so you capitulated and essentially created a new coin. New parameters that was not established from the beginning = new coin. A new coin with pre-established distribution, essentially equates to being a full premine or ICO because the distribution isn't fair for people to find out about the change before any investment happens.   I would be very careful since (correct me if I'm wrong) these changes you are proposing were not part of the original parameter goal and disclosure at the coin's launch and mining phase.  
If you do something like this, how can you say the coin operates without oversight and control by banks or government, when essentially what you'd be doing is the same thing. A small group of people that is governing the coin is a small government but is still a government. Ideally, imo there should be no voting or democracy, it should all be hard coded into the coin and any changes automatic based on code without any human supervision or intervention.

Full disclosure, I currently don't hold any ZEIT, but I respect it.  Things like this make me hold off as well since things seem changeable and up in the air whenever.  Who knows what a coin will really be in 10 years, will it be changed for the better for sure? How do you know?  I highly recommend not changing a coin just to manipulate the market. It might backfire. Just my 2 zeits for ya! Took me some time to write these thoughts.
 

Hi Derek,

Your input is always welcome.
However fiat money central banks are making decisions , without allowing the entire populace to vote which direction they are going.

Ours is different as All of the holders of ZEIT can directly vote for the change or vote against change.

Discussions and arguments were a few pages ago, and then we started the Vote.
Currently it is 15 in favor and 1 against, so the Vast Majority wants the change.

The original parameters and specs seemed great in the beginning, but as time has progressed, the flaws have become apparent.
Proof of Stake was looked at like a savings account from a bank, the problem is banks used to be able pay 5% yearly , because they were bringing in 18% or higher on loans.
Proof of Stake Coins like us are not receiving that loan influx to support paying out 5%. (It is being siphoned from our Market caps & value per coin.)

Example Mint, I watched it receive over $150,000 of Fiat which catapult it to ~30 satoshi .
But I have also watched your coin inflation eat away at that advantage until now it is down to ~4 satoshi with the sell walls increasing every day.

By all of us PoS coins ignoring inflation , BTC has been crushing us at the markets.
BTC makes less than 2000 coins per day, ZEIT & Mint are making millions of new coins per day.
There is no way for our prices to be stable much less rise , if we continue allowing such hyper inflation. (Simple Economics)

The Great thing about the ZEIT Community is there are a lot of thinkers over here,
where any other community would be too blinded by greed to change to Ultra Low Inflation, the community here is supporting it in Mass.

ZEIT & Mint Specs have been like Brothers, however we have discovered hyper inflation to be the most deadly of foes.
And We are Voting to Evolve and Defeat that foe.

ZEIT will not be static until an hyper inflated death, (like Sprouts, TurboStake, and others.)

ZEIT will Evolve , Improvise, Adapt and Overcome
1st to defeat inflation & Lastly to Dethrone BTC itself.  


 

FYI:
Simple Fact:
Higher Inflation means people will have more coins but the Value per coin will continually decrease.

Ultra Low Inflation Changes the Playing Field, people will have less coins but the Value per coin will Increase.  


FYI2:
In regards to making a Change,
If you & your friends are driving a car and the road you are taking is heading off of a cliff to all of your destruction,
It is the Very Act of Sanity that all of you agree to change course and save your vehicle and yourself.
Compare Both ZEIT & Mint in 2 years time , and you will see 1 Brother left the original path and the other Brother stayed the course.
I am confident which Brother will Survive & Thrive.  

[Ensaniyat]

Yes...I want have low coins..but these coines always will be increase Price.....

[jommy99]

Hello, it has been awhile since I last contributed to the ZeitCoin community and project so thought I should chime in with something, although I have not voted yet regarding the proposed ZeitCoin changes.  I tend to be more of a grind it out and don't try to cheat or change the rules leaner; but I do understand there are many viewpoints and concerns by many people that are all important to consider. As brought out by kiklo decentralized voting should give everyone a voice on key decisions not just an elite group of leaders.  I am not sure how to accomplish a truly fair vote but do think it might be more informative and helpful to collect more data on people's vote / perspective somehow. Should the number of Bitcointalk accounts responding be the only information used to come to a ZeitCoin community consensus on such serious matters? It is nice to have open discussion as is being done here and since I am personally hoping to understand other community members viewpoints and input better, I will wait to cast my vote for now.

Since Pandacoin is also trying to wrestle with it's fair evolution and taking into proper account all community members various perspectives etc, we have started experimenting with coin voting. We hope to learn how to do a better job understanding the voters determination as well as sincerity of their vote etc. We have a Pandacoin vote page we are experimenting and learning from and We have also created a test Zeitcoin vote page simply as an experiment / test that anyone can use. The results are just informative for now and all coins used to vote are considered simple donations to the appropriate faucet, however they could be used in other ways in the future.

To try out the Experimental ZeitCoin Vote page http://cryptodepot.org/zeitcoin-vote-page/

[kiklo]

Hello, it has been awhile since I last contributed to the ZeitCoin community and project so thought I should chime in with something, although I have not voted yet regarding the proposed ZeitCoin changes.  I tend to be more of a grind it out and don't try to cheat or change the rules leaner; but I do understand there are many viewpoints and concerns by many people that are all important to consider. As brought out by kiklo decentralized voting should give everyone a voice on key decisions not just an elite group of leaders.  I am not sure how to accomplish a truly fair vote but do think it might be more informative and helpful to collect more data on people's vote / perspective somehow. Should the number of Bitcointalk accounts responding be the only information used to come to a ZeitCoin community consensus on such serious matters? It is nice to have open discussion as is being done here and since I am personally hoping to understand other community members viewpoints and input better, I will wait to cast my vote for now.

Hi Jommy,

This is not an attempt to cheat anything, it is our One chance to Survive & Thrive Nothing more , Nothing Less.

ZEIT has remained at the original specs, for almost 3 years now.
There is an old saying,  Insanity is doing the Exact Same Thing Over & Over Again and Expecting a Different Result.
We have done the same thing over & over again, if we want a different result (Such as the Value of the coin to Increase) ,We Have to Change!

If you want to grind it out with Panda , feel free, wish you the best,
but after looking at the Numbers , No Proof of Stake coin will ever be anything but a pump & dump until we stop the hyper inflation.

Once we stop the Hyper Inflation , ZEIT will become something different and maybe that scares the other coin communities,
but we are evolving while the rest hold their original specs like they were handed down by God and Afraid to Change.

I have communicated with the original designer of Mintcoin, the one our original dev borrowed for ZEIT .
During that communication he was looking into creating a new coin with ZERO Inflation.
So even the original designer of the specs realizes that inflation is the most dangerous of foes and the original specs were flawed.

We are correcting the flaws in our design that is preventing us from Soaring & Growing above all coins , including BTC.
Once the new specs are in Place, Our entire economic dynamics change for the better.

Simply Put,
Vote Yes , if you want ZEIT to Survive & Thrive , and your coins to have a growing value.

Vote No , and we die a slow death from hyper inflation, and your coins become worthless

 

[kiklo]

We started the Poll on December 11, 2016.

In just 7 Days our inflation rate has added 110,710,184.07 coins.
That is over 110 Million coins.

2016-12-17 Sat   21,724,510.40
2016-12-16 Fri   14,299,754.51
2016-12-15 Thu   18,576,750.07
2016-12-14 Wed   18,396,872.24
2016-12-13 Tue   26,959,713.14
2016-12-12 Mon    7,702,107.81
2016-12-11 Sun    3,050,475.91


If we had already switched to Ultra Low Inflation , we would have only added 3,500 coins.
2016-12-17 Sat   500
2016-12-16 Fri   500
2016-12-15 Thu   500
2016-12-14 Wed   500
2016-12-13 Tue   500
2016-12-12 Mon   500
2016-12-11 Sun   500

Let say all of the generated coins were placed on blank Markets with no sell walls yet,
An investor with $35 wanted to buy into ZEIT .
For $35 he could buy ZEIT Entire week of inflation (3,500 coins) at the price of 1 penny each.

However to buy Our Actual ZEIT Entire week of inflation
110,710,184.07 of Coins,
An investor with $35 can only buy the entire amount if the price per coin is .00000009 Litoshi

Now lets say the owners of the inflation , just refused to sell that low, instead placing it all at 1 satoshi.
All they are doing is making an impenetrable sell wall, then next week they do the same, and then next week the same except they drop it off at 100 litoshi and start working their way down.

This is the Danger of Massive Inflation that now threatens our coin (Actually all PoS coins are suffering even the 1% ones) ,
going Ultra Low cuts off the supply of never ending coins that crush our price, it is the only solution and the sooner it is implemented the sooner our price recovery can begin. 


 

[Derek492]

By all means don't let me stop you. I will be interested to see how it turns out. I see what you're saying, and I get the point. But I don't think we are dealing with hyperinflation. The percentage is low, but the quantity of coins is high.  There is a difference between price and value. Price is dropping but value maintains right? I think what I see you are trying to do is maintain a certain exchange rate vs Bitcoin. But Bitcoin has so few coins relative to ZEIT or MINT with so many, that is what is causing the push towards a sub satoshi exchange ratio. The real problem IMO is Bitcoin price rising a lot, not ZEIT or MINT. Imagine for a second, if Bitcoin goes to $100,000,000 per coin, then 1 satoshi would be worth $1  and Bitcoin becomes unusable for any transaction under a dollar.  So what we are seeing right now is Bitcoin already becoming useless for transaction at the satoshi level because compared to ZEIT if ZEIT or MINT is sub satoshi, then Bitcoin is useless for valuation. This isn't zeit's or mint's problem it is a flaw and problem with Bitcoin. We must then look to Litecoin or other coins for valuation. I'm not sure trying to keep up with Bitcoin at all times is a good idea. If the price of Bitcoin goes up 10x in next month, and every month, then its unrealistic to keep up with that. You cannot force an exchange rate ratio unless you directly keep on manipulating the coin by adjusting rates or coin counts, you may even need to burn coins to reduce your supply of coins if that is the ultimate goal. Markets are in constant flux. Alternatively, if Bitcoin drops back down to say $50 per coin, then back we'd swing the other way. Kind of hard to know. Like I said, I will be interested to see how things turn out.

[solarion]

When you say "the price of Bitcoin" you're referring to the exchange rate based in US Dollars. A constantly moving target due to inflation(expansion of the US currency supply).

I would much rather see us work toward maintaining a value of Zeitcoin as measured against real money. Something without arbitrary inflation set by shadowy bureaucrats at the federal reserve, but with instead a fixed rate of inflation that is known years in advance.

Like...Bitcoin.

[Derek492]

When you say "the price of Bitcoin" you're referring to the exchange rate based in US Dollars. A constantly moving target due to inflation(expansion of the US currency supply).

I would much rather see us work toward maintaining a value of Zeitcoin as measured against real money. Something without arbitrary inflation set by shadowy bureaucrats at the federal reserve, but with instead a fixed rate of inflation that is known years in advance.

Like...Bitcoin.

I was just trying to illustrate a point. Could use anything really to price it. For example if you price Bitcoin in terms of ZEIT, it is currently 1 Bitcoin is worth about 113,000,000 zeit, last I checked? Therefore since 1 satoshi is worth more than 1 ZEIT then Bitcoin becomes useless for transactions involving 1 ZEIT or lower transactions of value. My point is that this is a scalability problem Bitcoin has not necessarily a problem with ZEIT.
 It is more of a listing problem with the exchanges more than anything.

All you have to do is get the exchanges to make a 1 to 10 or 1 to 100 or even 1 to 1000 exchange rate.  Basically instead of comparing 1 bitcoin to 1 ZEIT, have them compare 1 to 1000. Then the minimum exchange be like 1  Bitcoin to 1000 ZEIT.  I hope that makes sense to you. Then you can get back to proper Bitcoin trading and Bitcoin markets. It's not that hard to do you just have to get the exchanges to understand and implement the exchange ratio in that way. A ratio that is not 1 to 1, but like 1 to 1000. Anyway, it's just an idea.

[solarion]

...or we could vote to cut the supply of new coins and wait.

[kiklo]

...or we could vote to cut the supply of new coins and wait.

Right Answer.  


@Derek,

You right BTC does have a scalability problem,
However that does not mean that all Proof of Stake coins don't have an inflation problem.

Forget about the exchanges:
We created over 100 million new coins in 1 week,
lets say we were priced at 1 ZEIT = $1 , then we need an influx of 100 million Dollars in 1 week to just Maintain our current price.
or
let's say we were priced at 1 ZEIT = $0.01,  then we need an influx of 1 million Dollars in 1 week to just Maintain our current price.

Compared to being an ultra low inflation coin that only generated 3500 coins per week
lets say we were priced at 1 ZEIT = $1 , then we need an influx of $3500 in 1 week to just Maintain our current price.
or
let's say we were priced at 1 ZEIT = $0.01,  then we need an influx of $35 Dollars in 1 week to just Maintain our current price.
(by the way if we were at 1 penny, we would be 3rd on the market cap.)

The Lower our inflation , the less capital required for our price to Grow and the more valuable the previous coins become.

(if you focus on this and understand it, you will understand why Mint dropped from 30 sat (after $150,000 fiat influx) to now ~4 sat ,
you will also understand why all capital influxes into PoS coins are a lost cause , unless inflation is capped. )  

ZEIT using Proof of Stake defeats BTC on every technical level,
Speed
Energy Efficient
No ASICS Purchases required on an annual basis
20X BTC current transaction capacity

The only place BTC defeats us in Inflation Control, with this vote and the following changes.

Here are the Software Changes that are required if the Community Votes to go Ultra Low Inflation.
1.  Interest rate change to 0.0005% (0.000005) per year, that would leave us only gaining ~ 180,000 new coins per year . (Thanks to Fred for the % recommendation)
     (Price per coin will rise.)

2.  Minimum Stake Age Changed to 1 Day  (This will allow coins to be staked faster, so more coins will be defending our network security, Difficulty Increase)
     (Major increase in Our Network Security)

3.  Blocks no longer Split after staking, stake amount just adds to the block amount. (Recombining smaller blocks will no longer be necessary)
     (Meaning you can keep Larger amounts in fewer Blocks and use less resources.)  

We take away their only advantage.  


 

[Derek492]

Okay. So when are you making the change? Do you have a date set, or picked out a block number the fork will happen on?

[kiklo]

Okay. So when are you making the change? Do you have a date set, or picked out a block number the fork will happen on?

LOL,  

The Voting is not officially over with until Jan 1st,2017 .

After that it will be up to Rent_a_Ray , he does the Dev work , so it is dependent on his schedule.


 

[kiklo]

In the Delisting Exchanges News

Poloniex.com is zapping the following markets.
On January 4th 2017, the following markets will be delisted:
MMNXT, BITCNY, NBT, DIEM, LTBC, RDD, XST, XCN, XDN, SYNC, CGA, GEO, BLOCK, 1CR




 

[tvdhyjg]

nice info, i will withdraw my coin on delisted and stake them in my wallet

[Derek492]

Okay. So when are you making the change? Do you have a date set, or picked out a block number the fork will happen on?

LOL,  

The Voting is not officially over with until Jan 1st,2017 .

After that it will be up to Rent_a_Ray , he does the Dev work , so it is dependent on his schedule.


 

I wasn't agreeing with you. I still think it's flawed logic. I was just curious. Are you guys still at the 15% rate? Or are you at 5% yet?

[jwinterm]

I don't hold any zeit, but I also think this is a big mistake. Can you think of any coins in the past that have slashed emission and then went on to become more successful? Maybe darkcoin/dash, but that's all I can come up with. I think you will taint your project with the smear that coin emission was halted to benefit early adopters. No one wants to buy into something owned by a small number of people where no more will ever be created; just look at NXT, they screwed themselves over from the beginning using this no inflation logic, and there were probably more people in NXT ICO than there are zeit knights right now.

But, like I said, I don't own any and an not voting, so will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Also, why didn't you make people sign large addresses to cast a vote or something, to prove that you actually have some skin in the game. There's probably people in altcoin section with more sock puppet accounts than you got total votes in your poll...just sayin...

[solarion]

CBX?

There's over 190m Zeit for trade at or below 200 litoshis on Cryptopia alone. That's just a small portion of the available supply one single pair on one single exchange. Zeitcoin is available on four other exchanges and numerous other currency pairs. There's plenty of supply available and the original POW/POS hybrid roots that Zeitcoin began with ensured as wide and equitable a distribution as was possible. 

[kiklo]

Are you guys still at the 15% rate? Or are you at 5% yet?

15% rate until Block # 3153600 .
~2.29 days left at 15%