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Author Topic: ICBIT Derivatives Market (USD/BTC futures trading) - LIVE  (Read 88512 times)
Ichthyo
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October 08, 2012, 11:44:11 PM
 #181

Wow, that's confusing then.  So the lot size is 1/10 tr. oz but the price quote is for a full troy ounce of gold quoted in BTCs.

thus currently you'd need about 14 "leveraged coins" to buy into one contract, if I recall correct.

Currently for GOLD-02.13 there is a bid at 130 BTC and a sell at 148 BTC.
....
But I need to lay down 130 BTC for it?

Agreed, I was also rather confused, but thats just how it is, and on a second thought the lot size and the quotes come in quite handy.

For example, right now the underlying gold futures for next February have a rate of 1779.20
according to http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/metals/precious/gold.html

The current Mt.Gox BTC/USD rate is 11.69  -->  1779.20 / 11.69 = 152.198 BTC corresponding to one ounce of Gold
Since at ICBIT the lot size is 1/10, you need to provide 15.2198 "leveraged coins", which really seems a reasonable size.


BTW thanks for the link to the nice chart Smiley
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Stephen Gornick
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October 10, 2012, 10:02:52 PM
 #182

Are there plans to add multi-factor authentication like OTP to the trading site?   Right now I can add OTP to the site but that doesn't do anything to stop a replay attack to get unauthorized access to my trading account (where only username and password are still required):

 - https://icbit.se/WebTrade

Of course, that's planned for the next update which is about WebTrade authentication improvements.

So it appears that if you have two-factor enabled for the ICBIT website, that now is required for access to ICBIT trading.    i.e., trading accounts are now protected from a replay replay attack.

This protects against unauthorized login, though it appears there is not a another OTP authorization required when attempting to withdraw -- which is really the most important place the OTP should be required.   But OTP for login is better than no not having OTP at all.

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October 11, 2012, 03:20:03 AM
 #183

I'm conditioned to hate on the words "derivative" and "futures".

What the hell is this?  Paper manipulation like how JP Morgan shorts more silver than what exists in the world?
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October 11, 2012, 04:08:13 AM
 #184

What the hell is this?  Paper manipulation like how JP Morgan shorts more silver than what exists in the world?

at least you can't say "Its a bucket shop" -- since here people are betting against each other
Andrew Vorobyov
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October 12, 2012, 02:35:30 PM
 #185

There are no sell orders at your exchange.

Are you responsible for market making BUZ2 this or it's only P2P?

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October 12, 2012, 06:00:22 PM
 #186

There are no sell orders at your exchange.

Are you responsible for market making BUZ2 this or it's only P2P?
It's fully P2P. There are of course some traders who act as market makers, but we don't run our market making bot nowadays (we did in the past).


Some updates: Now login system became fully transparent, so you don't even need to push the Sign in button in the web trading client. All is done automatically. The only place to log in and log pit is the main icbit.se website.

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
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October 16, 2012, 04:32:59 AM
 #187

Hi,

For most of the time I've been looking at the BUZ2 BTCUSD contract here it has traded at a significant PREMIUM to the USD/BTC spot price.

Now, for about the last week or so, it's been trading at a significant DISCOUNT to spot prices.

Does anyone care to share any insight into this phenomenon?  Where SHOULD a BTC denominated BTCUSD futures contract trade, at a premium or discount?  Why did it switch?  What is "fair value"?

Thanks!

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October 16, 2012, 02:56:10 PM
 #188

Hi,

For most of the time I've been looking at the BUZ2 BTCUSD contract here it has traded at a significant PREMIUM to the USD/BTC spot price.

Now, for about the last week or so, it's been trading at a significant DISCOUNT to spot prices.

Does anyone care to share any insight into this phenomenon?  Where SHOULD a BTC denominated BTCUSD futures contract trade, at a premium or discount?  Why did it switch?  What is "fair value"?

Thanks!

Hello!
I am no expert but I can try to answer your question Smiley
Last week it looked like the price was going to increase hence more people wanted to go long then short, hence it was more expensive to buy the contracts then it was to buy the BTC, as you can get a leverage by x10 which you can't by simply buying BTC.
Now the opposite has happened more people believe the price will go down hence the contracts are under priced.
The "fair" price should be as close to the real BTC price as possible, of course this is only true if someone wants to offer contracts at such prices.
It's kind of like arbitrage, if you can sell a long contract for 14$ and you can buy a BTC for 12$ then you can make a 2$ spread hence theirs a incentive for arbitrage trading.
I hope that answers your question
//DeaDTerra
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October 18, 2012, 08:45:22 PM
 #189

Orderbook is higher than the allowed trading range on BUZ2?

Haven't seen that yet.

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October 18, 2012, 09:00:41 PM
 #190

Yup, and it looks like the 8PM tick down to 10$ passed through the bids

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Stephen Gornick
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October 18, 2012, 10:00:55 PM
 #191

Yup, and it looks like the 8PM tick down to 10$ passed through the bids

That $10 is bogus.  I hope nobody got forced liquidation due to an insufficient margin maintenance because of that.  

Trading range of $9 to $11, what?

@Fireball, where are these numbers coming from?

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October 18, 2012, 10:52:08 PM
 #192

Yup, and it looks like the 8PM tick down to 10$ passed through the bids

That $10 is bogus.  I hope nobody got forced liquidation due to an insufficient margin maintenance because of that.  

Trading range of $9 to $11, what?

@Fireball, where are these numbers coming from?

I will do another clearing to get the price range back, and get you all the variation margin back. As for the $10 tick (1 contract trade), it's wrong price information which got recorded into the trading history data. Money flow is not affected. Fixing it atm...

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
guruvan
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October 18, 2012, 11:42:34 PM
 #193

Yup, and it looks like the 8PM tick down to 10$ passed through the bids

That $10 is bogus.  I hope nobody got forced liquidation due to an insufficient margin maintenance because of that.  

Trading range of $9 to $11, what?

@Fireball, where are these numbers coming from?

Hmm. Well, FWIW, I ran a negative balance for a few days, and just covered today. I didn't think that was how it worked, but....there you have that.

Looks like someone is hammering it right @ clearing time? Really, in the last seconds or so. I really can't work with it - looks like a 50% loss for me for the week, some due to the larger drop, but it seems more due to the clearing time changes I can't catch fast enough. I've had more than one day this week that was showing an unrealized profit on the position moments before the 20:00 clearing, and then a massive loss right after. WTF.

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October 18, 2012, 11:52:06 PM
 #194

Yup, and it looks like the 8PM tick down to 10$ passed through the bids

That $10 is bogus.  I hope nobody got forced liquidation due to an insufficient margin maintenance because of that.  

Trading range of $9 to $11, what?

@Fireball, where are these numbers coming from?

Hmm. Well, FWIW, I ran a negative balance for a few days, and just covered today. I didn't think that was how it worked, but....there you have that.

Looks like someone is hammering it right @ clearing time? Really, in the last seconds or so. I really can't work with it - looks like a 50% loss for me for the week, some due to the larger drop, but it seems more due to the clearing time changes I can't catch fast enough. I've had more than one day this week that was showing an unrealized profit on the position moments before the 20:00 clearing, and then a massive loss right after. WTF.

guruvan - if you hold big amount of contracts then even small changes in the last price introduce big changes to your unrealized profit/loss rate. It looks like some people practice to make a few deals to either try to drop or rise the price right before clearing. That does not affect the real amount of profit/loss they get, so there is little point in doing so, but they do it nevertheless Wink

Now as for the $10 problem: really sorry about that, there was a minor issue in the trading engine which saved wrong price in rare occasions. Now it's properly fixed. Extra clearing was done to get back the trading range to normal state and properly transfer the variation margin.

If you still think something is wrong - please send an email to the support address and we'll check that.

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
toffoo
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October 19, 2012, 12:35:31 AM
 #195

Fireball,

As you are doing some work on the site, allow me to pose this elementary but profound question:

Q: Let's say the current best bid/ask quote on a given futures contract is 11.10 - 11.20 and I enter a limit order to sell with a limit price of 11, at what price will my order be executed at?

A: On any normal limit order book market at any kind of securities exchange anywhere in the world, the answer is: 11.10
    However, on Cryptoxchange, MercadoBitcoin, the former BritCoin, and apparently ICBIT, the answer is: 11

Please do not lump yourself in with the small number of Bitcoin exchanges who do not understand how order handling is supposed to work on a limit order book and fix this.

Ichthyo
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October 19, 2012, 01:04:27 AM
 #196

Looks like someone is hammering it right @ clearing time? Really, in the last seconds or so.

Happens now since several days. Someone sells into a (comparatively) massive amount of offers at the lower end, just 5 seconds before 20:00. Maybe the intention is to squeeze other people out of their positions. Otherwise such a trading pattern doesn't make much sense IMHO. We're way below the stock rates, so to keep that situation, such a trader has to burn money every day -- and, unless the BTC rate drops significantly, those who can efford to keep a long position so comfortably below stock rates are bound to make profit, eventually Undecided
Ichthyo
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October 19, 2012, 01:14:26 AM
 #197

A: On any normal limit order book market at any kind of securities exchange anywhere in the world, the answer is: 11.10
    However, on Cryptoxchange, MercadoBitcoin, the former BritCoin, and apparently ICBIT, the answer is: 11

urgs, really? That would be strange indeed.

I recall having placed such an order and allways got matched to some offers at 11.10 (according to the log entries).
What could happen indeed in such a situation is that you buy away all the offers at 11.10 and maybe one additional offer at 11.0, which makes that the last deal -- this last deal is used to calculate the unrealised loss/profit at that moment
picobit
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October 19, 2012, 06:27:11 AM
 #198

Hi,

Is there anyway to see more of the orderbook than five orders to each side?  Sometimes it looks like someone is (successfully!) trying to hide part of the book by placing five orders of one contract one cent apart.

Also, is there a way to get all trades in the last week or so?  Or just the last 24h?  Either in human-readable form or machine readable.  Heck, it would also be OK if the full depth was JSON, not that hard to read after all.

Fireball
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October 19, 2012, 09:33:56 AM
 #199

Fireball,

As you are doing some work on the site, allow me to pose this elementary but profound question:

Q: Let's say the current best bid/ask quote on a given futures contract is 11.10 - 11.20 and I enter a limit order to sell with a limit price of 11, at what price will my order be executed at?

A: On any normal limit order book market at any kind of securities exchange anywhere in the world, the answer is: 11.10
    However, on Cryptoxchange, MercadoBitcoin, the former BritCoin, and apparently ICBIT, the answer is: 11

Please do not lump yourself in with the small number of Bitcoin exchanges who do not understand how order handling is supposed to work on a limit order book and fix this.

No, it's very simple. This was tested from the very beginning, however with some code changes introduced recently the wrong price was used in only one case. I fixed this yesterday and retested successfully.
A: Best buy is 11.10, best sell is 11.20. Limit order to sell a contract with a limit price of 11.00 will be executed at 11.10.
Similarly, a limit order to buy a contract with a limit price of 11.5 will be executed at 11.20.

You can test that yourself on the exchange now.

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
guruvan
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October 19, 2012, 01:27:21 PM
 #200

Looks like someone is hammering it right @ clearing time? Really, in the last seconds or so.

Happens now since several days. Someone sells into a (comparatively) massive amount of offers at the lower end, just 5 seconds before 20:00. Maybe the intention is to squeeze other people out of their positions. Otherwise such a trading pattern doesn't make much sense IMHO. We're way below the stock rates, so to keep that situation, such a trader has to burn money every day -- and, unless the BTC rate drops significantly, those who can efford to keep a long position so comfortably below stock rates are bound to make profit, eventually Undecided

Good, it's not me seeing things Wink

Yeah, that's about my take on it. Looks like they're trying to squeeze people out, and in my case, it would have worked. I would have thought I'd have been force liquidated this week. It's not clear which would have been better(liquidation, or having the position carried). Does look like a money burning proposition, but I do note the open interest has doubled in the same time that I've noticed this pattern.

It would be convenient (to say the least) to be able to see the whole orderbook for the day's trading range on the webtrade page. Only seeing the top 5 orders can make for some pretty blind trading.


Mine at the Maza Club! with ShastaFarEye Prospectors! Mazacoin PPS & P2pool mining, and more services coming soon!
Maza Means Money! Check yours at the mazacha.in!

Please contact me  on my  OTC registered GPG (A54E87F2) Key's email address or guruvan@shastafareye.net  and encrypt all correspondence.
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