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Author Topic: ICBIT Derivatives Market (USD/BTC futures trading) - LIVE  (Read 88620 times)
Fireball
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March 06, 2013, 09:58:42 AM
 #581

Still it might be somewhat problematic for people who use futures to hedge their positions (e.g. if one sells goods for BTC but needs to pay supplier in USD), but I guess they have to live with it.

Have you thought about making futures with guaranteed profit? Maybe via insurance (higher fees) or something like that.

Yeah, this maybe problematic. As the exchange grows (it's still very very small compared to e.g. MtGox), this problem would not be so important because of bigger quantity of bids/asks.
As for insurance - this is a very interesting thing, but needs some research.

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
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March 06, 2013, 11:48:36 AM
 #582

Scammer opens two accounts, long and short.  

No, not really. The thing is that before going negative, in majority of the cases, scammer's counter-market position will be liquidated (by margin-calling).
However, in the worst case like yesterday, forced trades will occur. And still this won't bring the scammer profit, because scammer's "short" account will not reach negative state, but 0, so money would not be pumped out of nowhere.

So maximum he would get is just slightly reduced profit from "long" minus evreything he had in the "short" account.

But that is still a gain for the "gaming" trader (I think calling him a scammer is a bit strong).

I.e. I open two positions with 10 BTC margin, one short and one long.  The market moves significantly, one way or the other.  One account gains 20 BTC, the other would have lost 20 BTC but the loss is limited to 10 BTC by available funding.  Net gain 10 BTC.  That gain has to come from someone, either ICBIT if the account was allowed to go negative, or from other traders' profit if there is worst-case closure.

By the way, something like that could soon be very relevant.  I hold a long position (mainly by shorting gold), and liquidity is low during these crazy market conditions.  If bitcoin crashes, I will of course take a loss.  And just like the bid side of the gold order book is empty now, the ask side is likely to be gone by then, making it hard to get out of the market in time.  I am counting on my loss being more-or-less limited by the amount I have on ICBIT.  One one hand, I do not want to risk more money than I already have, but on the other hand I do not want to end up owing people money and not paying.  Do the margin calls on ICBIT protect me, i.e. will the automatic liquidation prevent my account from going significantly negative?

On the flip side, whenever there is a large movement upwards, I risk to get less profit than expected because somebody with a short position is forcibly closed.  That is the rules of the game as stated on the web page, and I have no problem with that - at least not if it happens rapidly, i.e. that I loose the last day or last few days of profit. But I would be very unhappy if this happens at a much later time (for example at settlement) and that I loose weeks of profit, killing my own margin account.

Are my expectations approximately correct?
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March 06, 2013, 12:51:23 PM
 #583

I.e. I open two positions with 10 BTC margin, one short and one long.  The market moves significantly, one way or the other.  One account gains 20 BTC, the other would have lost 20 BTC but the loss is limited to 10 BTC by available funding.  Net gain 10 BTC.  That gain has to come from someone, either ICBIT if the account was allowed to go negative, or from other traders' profit if there is worst-case closure.
As long as one short and one long - they are market neutral, and one account gain would equal other account loss. By the moment one of the accounts reaches critical limit (75% of the reserved amount), margin call happens and amount of open positions gets reduced by usual market orders down to 0 in extreme case. And that person leaves the "market neutral" state. Noone gets cheated, it's quite normal.

That is the rules of the game as stated on the web page, and I have no problem with that - at least not if it happens rapidly, i.e. that I loose the last day or last few days of profit. But I would be very unhappy if this happens at a much later time (for example at settlement) and that I loose weeks of profit, killing my own margin account.

Are my expectations approximately correct?
Absolutely. Dragging these kind of issues till the settlement would just make it worse and provide false expectations. When profitable position gets reduced, a trader always has the option to re-open the contracts by current market price and, hopefully, continue getting profits. When it's delayed till settlement, he thinks everything is allright and does not doanything, and suddenly realizes that he can't get full profit. That's why we compensated all losses on the previous settlement of BUZ2 contract (thus spending all fees we've got from trading), so that noone felt offended and got their profits in full.

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
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March 06, 2013, 04:39:13 PM
 #584

Speaking about high spreads, Mt.Gox currently has $0.7 spread.

Really it's nearly impossible to do any arbitrage with Mt.Gox's connection today, so sorry about lack of asks in the futures. Hence, I'm going to do some improvements to the Exchange market too, so that both Futures and Exchange (spot) markets would work on ICBIT, allowing for better arbitrage and hedging opportunities. Working with greatly unreliable Mt.Gox's connection is a pain.

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
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March 06, 2013, 08:33:07 PM
 #585

Fireball: Thanks for your clear answer to my questions.

These market conditions must be a kind of stress test for ICBIT  Grin
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March 06, 2013, 09:23:16 PM
 #586

Fireball: Thanks for your clear answer to my questions.

These market conditions must be a kind of stress test for ICBIT  Grin

Oh yes, that's a good test. New people came, and platform usage was about a few times more than usually.

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
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March 07, 2013, 10:11:47 PM
 #587

I just deployed a minor update (it doesn't change anything visually), which reorganized javascript code used by the trading platform, reducing number of retrieved .js files and also minifying them.

If something breaks after this one: please reload your browser, if it still doesn't help - clear the cache and reload again, if it still doesn't help - please report here Smiley

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
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March 08, 2013, 04:03:06 AM
 #588

If something breaks after this one: please reload your browser, if it still doesn't help - clear the cache and reload again, if it still doesn't help - please report here Smiley

In Chrome/Chromium when I click on the Market Depth chart it moves (like a scroll down) but no chart displays.

[Edit: as segabtc reports, nearly no data is displaying, not just this depth chart issue.]

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March 08, 2013, 04:26:50 AM
 #589

I just deployed a minor update (it doesn't change anything visually), which reorganized javascript code used by the trading platform, reducing number of retrieved .js files and also minifying them.

If something breaks after this one: please reload your browser, if it still doesn't help - clear the cache and reload again, if it still doesn't help - please report here Smiley

Latest FF browser, just updated, cleared cache and still can't see orderbook and balances windows. thanks
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March 08, 2013, 08:06:42 AM
 #590

I just deployed a minor update (it doesn't change anything visually), which reorganized javascript code used by the trading platform, reducing number of retrieved .js files and also minifying them.

If something breaks after this one: please reload your browser, if it still doesn't help - clear the cache and reload again, if it still doesn't help - please report here Smiley
Safari, cleared cashe and reloaded.  Cannot see orderbook and balances.
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March 08, 2013, 08:14:07 AM
 #591

I just deployed a minor update (it doesn't change anything visually), which reorganized javascript code used by the trading platform, reducing number of retrieved .js files and also minifying them.

If something breaks after this one: please reload your browser, if it still doesn't help - clear the cache and reload again, if it still doesn't help - please report here Smiley
Safari, cleared cashe and reloaded.  Cannot see orderbook and balances.

all my stuff is gone. orders, bitcoins, positions.


PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
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March 08, 2013, 09:48:07 AM
 #592

Hm, indeed, first rule of every developer - never say "it should work", because it won't then Wink

The thing is that API server became inacessible. The error was tracked down and will be fixed, in the meanwhile it's running as it should.

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
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March 08, 2013, 08:30:29 PM
 #593

There seems to be something wrong with the clearing price for futures with no trading volume in the last 24h.  For more than 24h the gold order book has had asks all the way down to the lower limit of the trading range (33.3 BTC/oz).  But since that is apparently still too high a price for gold, no-one buys and the "last" price remains the same.  Clearly, this is because the trading range is too high, and it should center around the lowest ask price when there are no bids.  

Something similar is happening with BUU3, where the bid side is full almost to the top of the allowed range, and the range does not move because no-one wants to sell to these apparently too low prices.


EDIT: The problem seems to have solved itself for the gold futures at least.  Somebody bought at the lowest ask price, and the price is now free to move again.
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March 09, 2013, 04:12:33 PM
 #594

There seems to be something wrong with the clearing price for futures with no trading volume in the last 24h.  For more than 24h the gold order book has had asks all the way down to the lower limit of the trading range (33.3 BTC/oz).  But since that is apparently still too high a price for gold, no-one buys and the "last" price remains the same.  Clearly, this is because the trading range is too high, and it should center around the lowest ask price when there are no bids.  

Something similar is happening with BUU3, where the bid side is full almost to the top of the allowed range, and the range does not move because no-one wants to sell to these apparently too low prices.


EDIT: The problem seems to have solved itself for the gold futures at least.  Somebody bought at the lowest ask price, and the price is now free to move again.


Thanks, I will check this.

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
xeverse
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March 09, 2013, 10:43:54 PM
 #595

Why do you charge any fees if you can do marketmaking?
Because of such fees it's not possible to hold any descent spread..

More so having such access to the realtime database of all trades it would be possible to predict the market
or at the very least to see it from the other side (but options stats maybe required along with futures for that)..
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March 10, 2013, 09:04:04 AM
 #596

Why do you charge any fees if you can do marketmaking?
Because of such fees it's not possible to hold any descent spread..
Everyone can do market making, it's an open market. As of now, the kind of market making I do doesn't lead to any income.

However, what I'm going to propose soon is reduced fees for market makers, so that the spread narrows down significantly. As usual, majority of futures exchanges offer special fees for liquidity providers. We'll do so too soon.

I'm just finishing another update (considered major this time) to client trading platform code, which will allow many new possibilities.

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
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March 11, 2013, 05:59:55 PM
 #597

I'm sure this is due to my misunderstanding, but icbit isn't doing what I'd expect. I made an entry order on the Exchange screen, to sell 1 BTC at $47.9. The price passed this a couple of hours ago, according to the candlestick chart, but the order hasn't been executed. Here's a screenshot.



I'm wondering if the chart shows Ask or Bid prices? And how can I choose which to show? And what's the spread? Oh, and what does the blue "L" next to my order in the orderbook mean?

All clues gratefully received!

Thanks, Toby.
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March 11, 2013, 06:57:04 PM
 #598

I suppose this chart is from mtgox and placed here as illustration.

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Fireball
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March 11, 2013, 07:16:25 PM
 #599

All clues gratefully received!

Thanks, Toby.

Toby, this is indeed because chart is informational only.
I'm working on a series of major updates to the trading interface, which will improve both Futures and Exchange market, and one of the things to be introduced is the real-time chart showing ICBIT prices, recent trades log, etc etc.
ETA for deployment - this week.

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
Fireball
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March 12, 2013, 06:02:32 PM
 #600

I just deployed a major update to the system. As usual please reload your browsers, clear cache if necessary, and try it out.
You will notice some goods things for sure, but to help you a bit:
- Further consolidation and minification of the client-side javascript code. Less files, less size, faster page loading time
- Orders are now submitted using the api channel + clientside javascript, which is about a magnitude faster than previously using page request and server-side processing. Just try to put some orders and you are going to feel they are there instantly
- Notifications are much prettier now (try to enter orders and see how they work)
- If the order is rejected by the server, the reason for rejection is going to be displayed in the status column

Additionally:
- JQuery updated to 1.7.2
- Now trading API allows to specify custom token (a number) when submitting an order create command. This may help you track orders in the algotrading systems
- Thorough testing of the API for extreme cases was performed (overflow/etc)
- Various minor improvements to the Exchange market. It's nearly ready to be jumpstarted

Margin trading platform OrderBook.net (ICBIT): https://orderbook.net
Follow us in Twitter: https://twitter.com/orderbooknet
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