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Author Topic: Taxless society idea  (Read 2222 times)
bryant.coleman
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October 12, 2019, 02:52:58 AM
 #141

Our economy would definitely die without taxes. Honestly, it's really a burden for most of us to pay taxes but we can't just eliminate it for our own good. Our taxes are allocated in a lot of departments which would benefit the economy and society. It's a burden yet a part of the circulation of the economic needs so we got no choice but to be responsible to do it as our duties. Everything must be put into balance, the taxes, the printing of money and the role of cryptocurrency.
A country can't survive without having this, Taxes are the life of the country it's need to pay your obligations so the government can act and perform things that's needed around their jurisdictions. Implemented taxes is design to returned the favor to the citizens by providing the needs of the entire communities. Without collecting this obligations we also will not see any improvements from the society.

Most of the citizens are having a false impression that the taxes are mostly being used for infrastructure projects, education and healthcare. In reality that is not the case. In countries such as the US, most of the tax collected is being used for waging wars and for administrative expenses. The Iraq war alone cost the American taxpayers around $2 trillion (and the bill is still climbing).

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October 12, 2019, 05:02:08 AM
 #142

Taxless society will result to chaos and printing more money is not a solution to consider. "Tax is thief" yet but if spend in a proper way by the government we will experience convenience in our society. Taxes cannot be remove, a country depends on it to build infrastructures, schools and hospitals etc. Taxes are only burden if it takes huge percentage of your income but if the government is earning enough through its controlled companies then they will take less from you.
Personally I do not subscribe to the taxation is theft theory, some level of taxation is needed to maintain the services we all need, but there are currently two huge problems, the first one is that the level of taxation is too high and this is slowing down the economy and the second is that the laws in place are too complex, paying your taxes is too difficult and there are too many exceptions, in my opinion the system needs to be simplified and governments needs to get smaller for the economy to recover.
Taxation service has already been done even before. It is the fund that the government will used to fund the needs of the country, including the road repair, maintaining the peace from the help of our police,soldiers, navy and so on. Without the taxation, there will be no law, and without law, every country will be doomed.

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October 12, 2019, 05:33:03 AM
 #143

Quote
Our economy would definitely die without taxes.

Holy moly I feel ill, I know so many people believe this because propaganda works but still on this forum to see it written    Cry
   Taxes are for government, the economy is an entirely different ecosystem to politics and business will always continue without politics because it is necessary and because society demands and is willing to pay for it.    The more taxes you have, the greater the burden on the real economy.   Sure people will argue well government employs some people and so more government is more employment but look where government took the money from and its the real productive economy.    Government loses money on everything it does and almost anything a government can do it will do less well then a company that must be competitive, efficient and profit making or it will cease to exist.   At what point does government operations cease, sometimes never because they have the backing of military and very little justification is required for them to continue forever.
   One of the few things to restrict governments are fiscal budgets and the ability to raise debt, we are living in the end game of a system without limit currently and the debt has been endless.   Its part of the story of what is causing FIAT to fail and likely crypto to take over from that failure.   Its quite inevitable unfortunately, the debts on many places in many nations cannot be repaid ever.

The statement above is quite close to the opposite of the truth and I dont blame anyone for saying it because alot maybe the majority believe it but this how far we are from the truth and the how painful its going to be to walk back to the road to prosperity from this viewpoint that more and more government is how to win.   I dont know if we go full socialism or not, I hope not because people can starve to death.   China had famine within my living memory and I aint that old, they boom now in comparison but we dont want to swap places with what they did so often.
   Only things I think of for government, is defence of the nation which is military but domestic not foreign campaigns and I wont argue with healthcare as people are a great investment.  If you can at least get them to survive to adulthood, people give exponential returns so even if healthcare costs a fortune its at least got some justification behind it, waging wars, many other big spends by government are just failures and it doesnt make us stronger to divert GDP to taxes.

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October 12, 2019, 05:36:25 AM
 #144

Taxless society will result to chaos and printing more money is not a solution to consider. "Tax is thief" yet but if spend in a proper way by the government we will experience convenience in our society. Taxes cannot be remove, a country depends on it to build infrastructures, schools and hospitals etc. Taxes are only burden if it takes huge percentage of your income but if the government is earning enough through its controlled companies then they will take less from you.
Personally I do not subscribe to the taxation is theft theory, some level of taxation is needed to maintain the services we all need, but there are currently two huge problems, the first one is that the level of taxation is too high and this is slowing down the economy and the second is that the laws in place are too complex, paying your taxes is too difficult and there are too many exceptions, in my opinion the system needs to be simplified and governments needs to get smaller for the economy to recover.
Taxation service has already been done even before. It is the fund that the government will used to fund the needs of the country, including the road repair, maintaining the peace from the help of our police,soldiers, navy and so on. Without the taxation, there will be no law, and without law, every country will be doomed.
And crime rate will increase without tax . The tax is needed by the government not only for insfrastructure , but mostly to help people who cant afford to pay for health services  ,piece tax use for  as payment for soldier and police .  Education for  public teacher government will also pay for thier salary.
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October 12, 2019, 07:13:51 AM
 #145

~snip

Holy moly what a roller coaster.

I don't know what grudge you have for the government but at least here, keep it professional. As bad the image of the government is to the public, I'm quite certain that, in this era, we still need an acting government. I'm not saying that I'm pro to them, I'm just saying that all the services they provide are still needed by the citizens, well the majority of people at least.

Can you provide me insights about why does the government (and its taxes) does not correlate/connected to the economic system? Because I'm skeptical about it, even if politics and businesses cannot mix ever, politics is still essential for businesses, imo at least.

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October 12, 2019, 08:30:41 AM
Last edit: October 12, 2019, 06:00:12 PM by deisik
 #146

And call it a proto-government, leadership, or whatever. But it naturally (as opposed to being forced) comes about only when there is a need for that, i.e. when a certain society becomes too big and complex, making solving issues directly by the consensus prohibitively expensive in terms of effort and time. Thus, they are solved by a group of selected individuals ("government") who are delegated such authority by the consensus. I don't consider the case when this authority is taken by force as we have assumed that it should be natural ("self-inflicted"), not imposed

So, what you're saying is, when it comes to "proto-government, leadership", and ("self-inflicted"), we will rely on trust? So you believe that since a ("government") is unavoidable such as this case, it'll come out naturally? Well, technically, forming a government needs (trust) even if its delegated, but I am not worried about the leader, government whatever ('cause they are "the selected" people) but the other members of the society (the common people). Do you honestly think a society could be as "organized" or even better without an acting "government"?

Could you please rephrase your thought?

You speak in so vague terms that it is hard to get what you are actually trying to say. Anyway, if something is unavoidable, the issue of trust becomes kinda irrelevant as what is unavoidable will inevitably come about in a "natural way", trust or no trust. Regarding a society being as "organized" or even better without an acting "government", that obviously depends on your understanding of "organized"

You might think that I may be against the idea but actually, no. I'm having thoughts on the consequences if this would ever happen. I genuinely think that this could only work if the "society" is comprised of people who respected and trusted everyone, which in case of a human being is quite impossible

That's not necessarily so

And we don't need to change a human animal in certain ways (think eugenics here). As I'm inclined to think, we could get there when we have a certain level of integration between people as a whole that would allow to have a form of distributed government but without the typical drawbacks as well as overheads of a regular one (think taxes here). Indeed, some things should remain centralized but more and more could be taken and re-delegated back to "people". And it can also be a natural process (read, more or less inevitable and unavoidable)

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October 12, 2019, 09:03:38 AM
 #147

And crime rate will increase without tax . The tax is needed by the government not only for insfrastructure , but mostly to help people who cant afford to pay for health services  ,piece tax use for  as payment for soldier and police .  Education for  public teacher government will also pay for thier salary.

I don't think the crime rate will be increasing, the chaos might be.

People would be really happen without tax, don't you think?

But without tax, then it is a dead country since they said that Tax is the blood of the country, without it, the country will die. A lot of companies will be earning a lot of money especially companies managing, for example, tobacco and alcohol drinks.

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October 12, 2019, 09:11:10 AM
 #148

And crime rate will increase without tax . The tax is needed by the government not only for insfrastructure , but mostly to help people who cant afford to pay for health services  ,piece tax use for  as payment for soldier and police .  Education for  public teacher government will also pay for thier salary.

I don't think the crime rate will be increasing, the chaos might be.

People would be really happen without tax, don't you think?

But without tax, then it is a dead country since they said that Tax is the blood of the country, without it, the country will die. A lot of companies will be earning a lot of money especially companies managing, for example, tobacco and alcohol drinks.
Tax is very essential and it is the reason why a country is running and progressing. It is impossible for a country to survive long term without a tax collection because they will not be able to continue their activities since they can't handle the expenses. On the other hand, people might just throw the government away since the government doesn't have any power over the people because they got no money.

 
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October 12, 2019, 09:30:14 AM
 #149

The additional issue of coins instead of taxes is essentially equivalent to inflation and will devalue citizens ' money. I think that we need to improve the existing tax system, and not try to completely dramatically change the tax economy to a tax-free one. This can lead to unpredictable consequences and a big financial crisis.

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October 12, 2019, 10:21:31 AM
 #150

And crime rate will increase without tax . The tax is needed by the government not only for insfrastructure , but mostly to help people who cant afford to pay for health services  ,piece tax use for  as payment for soldier and police .  Education for  public teacher government will also pay for thier salary.

I don't think the crime rate will be increasing, the chaos might be

Chaos is what makes crimes take over society

Whenever there is failure of authority and ensuing lack of law enforcement people quickly turn into beasts (Mad Max scenario), so if the reduction of taxes leads to less effective law enforcement, criminals of all sorts will definitely take advantage of this opportunity to get away unscathed with their criminal activities. But overall, it is a complex issue as more law enforcement (read, more taxes) doesn't necessarily lead to more law and order. There should be a balance, middle ground or golden mean of sorts

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October 13, 2019, 01:29:06 AM
 #151


I don't know what grudge you have for the government but at least here, keep it professional. As bad the image of the government is to the public, I'm quite certain that, in this era, we still need an acting government.

I dont have a grudge against any government but we have an uncontrolled situation presently where government is able to spend far past their means and also the means of the country to support the spending and the debt they are accumulating.     Iam allergic to being horribly poor and unfortunately bad governments can quite easily make everyone in a country poor.
  The very richest people will be just fine as they can straddle multiple countries, store wealth where they choose and their income is not bound to local prospects.   The very well educated can move to another country and use their skills that are in demand globally.   The very poorest people have no choice, no capital to leave their country when its ruined by a government that consumes over 50% of GDP.
  Acting government is just fine, act on the peoples requests but we have governments so large they dominate the whole of the country.   Right now we dont find thats a problem but quite a few countries have over 50,000 in debt per person in their nation.   This is my problem, Im not that rich to pay that off and most people I know cannot pay back that debt that wasnt even spent by me.
  Compared to new spending programs and campaigns its boring and tiresome to mention but in future it'll be a problem we lament and sadly I have no yacht to sail away from these problems so I know I'm going to end up poorer from excessive government, its no grudge just serious apprehension that we have a failed situation here just as serious the problems Greece faced.  

 I should quote many sources but none of this is a secret just the varied point of view is 'government (over)spending is necessary' or similar, it will fail and then it doesnt matter the opinion as we wont have the capital to spend.   The correct route right now is to run a budget surplus, please tell if any prospective candidate in any election of any nation says those words.
 The OP is seriously misguided in thinking inflation counts as taxless or even that governments should ever be funded in this way but in the current context its normal which will make the abrupt stop all the worse.

Quote
After expiration inflatory money would not be worth (will be "burned").
Time dated money has been issued in China many years ago apparently.   After a certain date all these notes would no longer be honoured.   Our current QE programs however have come nowhere close to being neutralised and likely never will, if you have any dollar based pension it likely wont be worth alot and probably similarly true in many currencies.

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October 13, 2019, 06:17:37 AM
 #152

And crime rate will increase without tax . The tax is needed by the government not only for insfrastructure , but mostly to help people who cant afford to pay for health services  ,piece tax use for  as payment for soldier and police .  Education for  public teacher government will also pay for thier salary.

I don't think the crime rate will be increasing, the chaos might be

Chaos is what makes crimes take over society

Whenever there is failure of authority and ensuing lack of law enforcement people quickly turn into beasts (Mad Max scenario), so if the reduction of taxes leads to less effective law enforcement, criminals of all sorts will definitely take advantage of this opportunity to get away unscathed with their criminal activities. But overall, it is a complex issue as more law enforcement (read, more taxes) doesn't necessarily lead to more law and order. There should be a balance, middle ground or golden mean of sorts

I agree, this tax less society that we're thinking is a society that is blind and has no purpose at all, it's too much freedom, in my opinion. Tax less society is like we're saying that Government should be annihilated and we're just going to act individually without any law and restrictions, with this kind of society, therefore I am sure that this humanity and mother earth last hope is going to be a dream that's not going to become a reality anymore.

Being greedy this much doesn't make sense at all, we worship money too much and it's the reason why everyone of us will be dead in the future, the greediness, selfishness, and not having a unity.
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October 13, 2019, 06:48:50 AM
 #153

~snip....that obviously depends on your understanding of "organized"

My apologies, I tend to blabber a lot, I should just be direct.

Exactly! That's what I'm trying to explain. It will depend on the understanding of every member of the "society", the meaning of "organized" as a "society". AFAIK, every person has their own point of view on things. Since there's no "law", as there's no acting "government", e.g. if one member doesn't agree on the decision of the majority, the said person will tend to do either commit a crime or just accept the situation whatever it may be.



And we don't need to change a human animal in certain ways (think eugenics here). As I'm inclined to think, we could get there when we have a certain level of integration between people as a whole that would allow to have a form of distributed government but without the typical drawbacks as well as overheads of a regular one (think taxes here). Indeed, some things should remain centralized but more and more could be taken and re-delegated back to "people". And it can also be a natural process (read, more or less inevitable and unavoidable)

After reading this, I must admit, I'm speechless and enlightened at the same time.

This will be possible. But it will only be applicable to very selective-people--people who are as sympathetic as you are, I guess. If these conditions are met, then this "society" will exist.

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October 13, 2019, 06:55:50 AM
 #154

And crime rate will increase without tax . The tax is needed by the government not only for insfrastructure , but mostly to help people who cant afford to pay for health services  ,piece tax use for  as payment for soldier and police .  Education for  public teacher government will also pay for thier salary.

I don't think the crime rate will be increasing, the chaos might be

Chaos is what makes crimes take over society

Whenever there is failure of authority and ensuing lack of law enforcement people quickly turn into beasts (Mad Max scenario), so if the reduction of taxes leads to less effective law enforcement, criminals of all sorts will definitely take advantage of this opportunity to get away unscathed with their criminal activities. But overall, it is a complex issue as more law enforcement (read, more taxes) doesn't necessarily lead to more law and order. There should be a balance, middle ground or golden mean of sorts

I agree, this tax less society that we're thinking is a society that is blind and has no purpose at all, it's too much freedom, in my opinion. Tax less society is like we're saying that Government should be annihilated and we're just going to act individually without any law and restrictions, with this kind of society, therefore I am sure that this humanity and mother earth last hope is going to be a dream that's not going to become a reality anymore.

Being greedy this much doesn't make sense at all, we worship money too much and it's the reason why everyone of us will be dead in the future, the greediness, selfishness, and not having a unity.
Taxless society is just an idea for those people who thinks that without government regulation there will be a better life. Taxless society will just give our life a chaos, illegal activities will increase and there will be no development that will occur in our county. People will only think about money and its not good to praise money than freedom.

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October 13, 2019, 07:26:52 AM
 #155

~snip
~snip...1) Iam allergic to being horribly poor and unfortunately bad governments can quite easily make everyone in a country poor.
  a) The very richest people will be just fine as they can straddle multiple countries, store wealth where they choose and their income is not bound to local prospects. 
  b) The very well educated can move to another country and use their skills that are in demand globally. 
  c) The very poorest people have no choice, no capital to leave their country when its ruined by a government that consumes over 50% of GDP.
  2) Acting government is just fine, act on the peoples requests but we have governments so large they dominate the whole of the country.   Right now we dont find thats a problem but quite a few countries have over 50,000 in debt per person in their nation.   This is my problem, Im not that rich to pay that off and most people I know cannot pay back that debt that wasnt even spent by me.
  Compared to new spending programs and campaigns its boring and tiresome to mention but in future it'll be a problem we lament and sadly I have no yacht to sail away from these problems so I know I'm going to end up poorer from excessive government, its no grudge just serious apprehension that we have a failed situation here just as serious the problems Greece faced.   


3) I should quote many sources but none of this is a secret just the varied point of view is 'government (over)spending is necessary' or similar, it will fail and then it doesnt matter the opinion as we wont have the capital to spend.   The correct route right now is to run a budget surplus, please tell if any prospective candidate in any election of any nation says those words.
 a) The OP is seriously misguided in thinking inflation counts as taxless or even that governments should ever be funded in this way but in the current context its normal which will make the abrupt stop all the worse.


That's quite informative, props to you my friend.

1) I can sympathize with this one. This applies mostly to 2nd ~ 3rd-world-countries, well, 1st-world-countries have poor people but it's not as inferior as the others.
  a) Rich people know how to "manage" their wealth, they have financial freedom. That's a given.
  b) Educated people know how to gain wealth. That's also a given.
  c) No, poor people can have a choice. It has been proven many times over, those who strive and persevere through hardships will be successful. But that will depend on your understanding of "successful". The government isn't always responsible for this.

2) I'm about to say "we can't blame them..." but I'm just gonna say, well they are "the government". (read) Depending on the "type of government", their decisions are absolute. Someone said, "we were 35 years late", it has always been a problem for almost every country, my friend.

3) Some candidates/delegated politicians mention it on their agendas--some acts on it, but fails; some just said so, just to gain supporters.
  a) I don't think he's misguided, he's naive, and lacks knowledge about the subject at hand.

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October 13, 2019, 08:44:39 AM
 #156

It is not quite right to say that the state cannot survive without taxes. A country can survive without tax as long as natural resources can sustain the lives of its people and if the level of dependence on other countries is small. Dubai applies taxes after oil prices fall which causes income to decrease, taxes are applied to overcome the budget deficit because the state subsidizes so that its people enjoy cheap oil. So the application of tax in Dubai is not the only way to overcome the deficit and once the tax application policy was revoked to encourage investment into Dubai.

Diversification of income through taxes is not necessarily effective in every country. With taxes, the state can maintain its independence. Rich or poor countries still need taxes to encourage development and equitable distribution of welfare. Besides that, as I explained before, taxes are loaded with state interests and are used as instruments.
The function of tax is not only to put money in the purse of the government for them to spend, but it is also good for them to be able to control some certain things in the country, if you look at the issue of Electricity, the reason why electricity is stable in some countries is because the citizens knows how to control their gadget, and the reason for that is that they pay tax, if they don’t pay tax, they will have nonchalant attitude over managing power which will put more load on what the country can generate.

I know that we have natural resources but these natural resources, government would not make use of it themselves, they still have to engage the citizens, and you know that the proceeds from it cannot be taken completely from them, so it would still have to come in form of tax.

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Colt81
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October 13, 2019, 09:56:56 AM
 #157

Our economy would definitely die without taxes. Honestly, it's really a burden for most of us to pay taxes but we can't just eliminate it for our own good. Our taxes are allocated in a lot of departments which would benefit the economy and society. It's a burden yet a part of the circulation of the economic needs so we got no choice but to be responsible to do it as our duties. Everything must be put into balance, the taxes, the printing of money and the role of cryptocurrency.
A country can't survive without having this, Taxes are the life of the country it's need to pay your obligations so the government can act and perform things that's needed around their jurisdictions. Implemented taxes is design to returned the favor to the citizens by providing the needs of the entire communities. Without collecting this obligations we also will not see any improvements from the society.
I strongly agree that taxes is very important in a country because it is a contribution of every citizen in their country. The reason why we pay taxes to our government because it provides the needs of every citizen in their country which they can also use it to build establishments like public schools, hospitals, highways, centers and many more, that is why without paying taxes it will be difficult for us to build such establishment and improve a certain country. People just don't want to pay taxes due to corruption that they don't trust their government that they will use it for good.
tungaqhd
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October 13, 2019, 10:31:04 AM
 #158

Our economy would definitely die without taxes. Honestly, it's really a burden for most of us to pay taxes but we can't just eliminate it for our own good. Our taxes are allocated in a lot of departments which would benefit the economy and society. It's a burden yet a part of the circulation of the economic needs so we got no choice but to be responsible to do it as our duties. Everything must be put into balance, the taxes, the printing of money and the role of cryptocurrency.
A country can't survive without having this, Taxes are the life of the country it's need to pay your obligations so the government can act and perform things that's needed around their jurisdictions. Implemented taxes is design to returned the favor to the citizens by providing the needs of the entire communities. Without collecting this obligations we also will not see any improvements from the society.
I strongly agree that taxes is very important in a country because it is a contribution of every citizen in their country. The reason why we pay taxes to our government because it provides the needs of every citizen in their country which they can also use it to build establishments like public schools, hospitals, highways, centers and many more, that is why without paying taxes it will be difficult for us to build such establishment and improve a certain country. People just don't want to pay taxes due to corruption that they don't trust their government that they will use it for good.
Some people always think that the government will be corrupt, the money we pay taxes will be in vain, it only serves some individuals in the government apparatus, this thinking is not wrong when the corruption in the government is always exposed in the news every year. However, we should not just look at such a bad side, we need to look at the positives of the tax payment process, facilities, equipment, everything around us are upgraded, evils and robberies will decrease with a high educational level, no taxes, no one is responsible for these issues

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Zeke_23
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October 13, 2019, 10:47:51 AM
 #159

Our economy would definitely die without taxes. Honestly, it's really a burden for most of us to pay taxes but we can't just eliminate it for our own good. Our taxes are allocated in a lot of departments which would benefit the economy and society. It's a burden yet a part of the circulation of the economic needs so we got no choice but to be responsible to do it as our duties. Everything must be put into balance, the taxes, the printing of money and the role of cryptocurrency.
A country can't survive without having this, Taxes are the life of the country it's need to pay your obligations so the government can act and perform things that's needed around their jurisdictions. Implemented taxes is design to returned the favor to the citizens by providing the needs of the entire communities. Without collecting this obligations we also will not see any improvements from the society.
I strongly agree that taxes is very important in a country because it is a contribution of every citizen in their country. The reason why we pay taxes to our government because it provides the needs of every citizen in their country which they can also use it to build establishments like public schools, hospitals, highways, centers and many more, that is why without paying taxes it will be difficult for us to build such establishment and improve a certain country. People just don't want to pay taxes due to corruption that they don't trust their government that they will use it for good.
It is truly important, taxes are not only used for the development of the country itself, but also to fund new discovery and upgrades we need in life. We have technology today because of our tax, tax is being used to buy goods and services from other country, and services from government officials/public sectors. If tax does not exist, a county won't be called a country anymore.
jmigdlc99
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October 13, 2019, 02:12:50 PM
Merited by Suslived (1)
 #160

If you'll try to replace taxes with printing money (which is effectively a tax on owning money), you'll just destroy your economy, because no one would want to own money and the inflation would be much higher than what would you expect from simple calculations. Taxes can be very complex, there are tons of rules that can increase, decrease or even remove taxes for certain situation, meanwhile printing money just affects everyone the same, so this idea is much worse than taxes.

Well said. A taxless society simply would not work in this day and age. Radical ideas like this, although they sound beautiful and rosy, are just idealistic adventures that have no place in a free and democratic society. I'd be more agreeable if we lived in a tyrannical communistic society, but luckily we don't.

A wise man once said, "nothing is permanent except death and taxes."

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