Taxless society idea

[inthelongrun]

Why do the government need to provide free education and healthcare? Here in India, hardly anyone from the middle class depends on the government hospitals and schools (because the quality is so horrible). Those who can afford, always go for private healthcare and education. And these are the people who pay the taxes to the government without any break.

I am not for the abolishment of tax. But taxes should be kept at a tolerable limit. Here in India, those at the highest tax slab pays almost 42% of their income as tax. On top of that, there are indirect taxes on all goods and services ranging from 5% to 28%. And on top of all these, there is excise duty, capital gains tax and dozens of other types of taxes.

Again, another very informative reply, much appreciated.

Here in the Philippines, there are public schools that are basically free of tuition fees (besides from scholarships), this can range from High Schools to State Universities/Colleges. The government's plan was, to provide education to people who can't afford it. People who are knowledgeable, skilled, competitive--it's a long term plan actually. They believe that it could help the "economy" of the country by the next 5~10+ years. As for healthcare, here also they provide some "free" services every now and then I don't really know the details but public hospitals also provide insurances, especially for those people who can't afford a big one-time-payment, e.g. surgeries.

That's a lot of taxes; again, even I am not really familiar with the taxes here in my country but I'm pretty sure it's somewhat identical--the "items" that are taxed at least, not sure about the numbers.

Our country is still full of corrupt leaders and politicians. From the lowest level up to the highest level.

Public health care and education services may vary from places to places. Some places have good services down to the worst ones where politics matters most.

The tax system is not fair. Philippines 97% wealth is by owned by 3% of the population. Our lawmakers, officials and leaders are under the wallet of our tycoons. Our laws are not for us but for the 3%. We have high salary tax and another minimum of 12% additional tax on our goods. Purchasing our first vehicle should not be taxed this high as it is becoming a necessity, instead they should enforce this very high luxury tax the second time (or more) we buy another vehicle.

Taxless society is applicable to nations with very rich resources but with small population. But this is impossible to nations with high population with limited resources.     

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[Sithara007]

Again, another very informative reply, much appreciated.

Here in the Philippines, there are public schools that are basically free of tuition fees (besides from scholarships), this can range from High Schools to State Universities/Colleges. The government's plan was, to provide education to people who can't afford it. People who are knowledgeable, skilled, competitive--it's a long term plan actually. They believe that it could help the "economy" of the country by the next 5~10+ years. As for healthcare, here also they provide some "free" services every now and then I don't really know the details but public hospitals also provide insurances, especially for those people who can't afford a big one-time-payment, e.g. surgeries.

That's a lot of taxes; again, even I am not really familiar with the taxes here in my country but I'm pretty sure it's somewhat identical--the "items" that are taxed at least, not sure about the numbers.

Well.. here in India, we have public schools that give free education, but the quality tends to be very low. In most of the cases, the teachers are not qualified enough and they are not punctual. Education levels are rising, thanks to private institutions. And for college education, some of the government institutions are good. But recently they have increased the tuition fees and now there is not much difference in the fees between government colleges and private colleges.

Another initiative launched by the government is that they are providing free mediclaim up to a certain threshold to the poor people. This means that in case of medical emergency, they can afford to go to the private hospitals rather than the poorly run government hospitals. But even then, this spending represents a small fraction of the government expenses. The majority goes to paying salaries and pension for the government employees.

[deisik]

What are you talking about? The government funds came from tax, if there's no tax, the government will not move. They cannot provide services, no more public hospitals, public schools, public transportation, etc. they also cannot provide maintenance and order. It will affect the economy horribly as well.

Why do the government need to provide free education and healthcare?

Maybe, because it pays back, eventually?

If we postulate that the government can't exist without taxes (which seems to be a widely accepted point here), it should be interested in the steady and consistent flow of this money, right? But if the government doesn't support public schools and the healthcare system, it will be shooting itself in the foot over the long run. Indeed, the law of diminishing returns is fully applicable here (as elsewhere), so you wouldn't actually expect these areas to be of top-notch quality, but it is not like the government should disengage altogether, either

[DaftAjax]

~snip

~snip

Our country is still full of corrupt leaders and politicians. From the lowest level up to the highest level.

Public health care and education services may vary from places to places. Some places have good services down to the worst ones where politics matters most.

The tax system is not fair. Philippines 97% wealth is by owned by 3% of the population. Our lawmakers, officials and leaders are under the wallet of our tycoons. Our laws are not for us but for the 3%. We have high salary tax and another minimum of 12% additional tax on our goods. Purchasing our first vehicle should not be taxed this high as it is becoming a necessity, instead they should enforce this very high luxury tax the second time (or more) we buy another vehicle.

Taxless society is applicable to nations with very rich resources but with small population. But this is impossible to nations with high population with limited resources.     

I think any Democratic type of Government has corrupt officials/politicians. Well, that is because these officials/leaders consider public schools, hospitals, etc. as "business"--their "business".

I think most of the increase of tax is because of our "past" debts--that issued by the past "few" presidents. Our economy is currently under the influence of Inflation--this is probably their "solution" for paying up these debts.

All in all, I think our country, Philippines, doesn't make good use of its people--for further development in numerous fields: technology, business, etc.  A lot of citizens would rather work abroad than here in the Philippines, though I can't really blame them as the exchange rates compare to our PHP is quite significant. Also what I don't like about citizens here is that products that are made locally are not considered as "quality-made-products", they would prefer products from other countries instead. These are just some points, now you would say that it's not that significant but the fact that people here have the mentally like that won't make this country's economy any good. Another thing is, we have so much "imports" than "exports". I can talk about a lot of issues about our country but it's just going to be repetitive, so I'm just gonna leave it at that.

Believe me, the Philippines have a lot of "resources", people just don't know how to use them, or rather people choose not to use them.

Well.. here in India, we have public schools that give free education, but the quality tends to be very low. In most of the cases, the teachers are not qualified enough and they are not punctual. Education levels are rising, thanks to private institutions. And for college education, some of the government institutions are good. But recently they have increased the tuition fees and now there is not much difference in the fees between government colleges and private colleges.

Another initiative launched by the government is that they are providing free mediclaim up to a certain threshold to the poor people. This means that in case of medical emergency, they can afford to go to the private hospitals rather than the poorly run government hospitals. But even then, this spending represents a small fraction of the government expenses. The majority goes to paying salaries and pension for the government employees.

I apologize, I didn't get into the details about what I said in my last reply--and it turned out to be very positive than expected. Well, I just want to point out the good things about it, rather than its problems. But after reading your statement, I can conclude that our countries situations are pretty similar. Yes, I've said good things about it, but mostly the things that you've mentioned are the flaws of our country as well. Huh, curious, what a coincidence (*cough* capitalism *cough).

[Silberman]

I don't agree to what you said that we cannot do anything about it. We can really do something to the government officials to avoid experiencing the same thing from corrupt officials and that is to not vote them in the next election. It is us who put them on their position and for the next voting, we should be wise and just vote the candidates that are responsible enough to get the position and that is how we are going to make sure that everything will be alright.

And what are you going to do when all the candidates for which you can vote are corrupt? Corruption among government officials is incredibly common, this is why there is a very common belief that there is no politician that is honest, whatever change that you want to achieve in your life or in the life of others that requires the participation of the government will probably never happen or it will take a lot of time so it is better to try to change things with your own means.

[craZyLovE0916]

paxillus societies a tricky subject because the government needs to raise funds somehow. However, maybe it would be possible if our government were talented with money management.

[DaftAjax]

paxillus societies a tricky subject because the government needs to raise funds somehow. However, maybe it would be possible if our government were talented with money management.

*chuckle*, they are "talented" indeed.

They are so "talented" they could money launder without anyone finding out (initially of course--pre-investigation). They are so "talented" some would call, extra money, that is designated into a supposedly "government projects" would end up in their pockets. I could give you a lot of legitimate examples of how "talented" they are, but that would only bore you. I am not saying that there is no one in the government who uses the funds the way it should be, but as long as officials/politicians like these exist(?) people will always generalize them.

[Clement Kaliyar]

Taxless society it's utopia. I would like to know how does domene think that public interests like health and education could be financed or co-financed without taxes.

There are places that have not taxes and if you look at the citizens of Dubai they do not have to pay any tax and still they will give subsidy to their citizens and even for the expats population there was no taxation, so it is possible to be a tax less society if the government is making money from other resources.

The problem is not in taxes but the way how the funds from taxes are spend, or better to say misused. So citizens needs to fight for better insight and control how their funds are spent.

It is difficult to understand what a government is doing with all the funds and they are not public nor the government wants that to be a public knowledge and if someone wants to raise that matter then all the political parties will join hands to make everything secret.

[Triffin]

I think that everyone deep down understands the importance of taxes for the country, but he will always resist this, because there are a lot of points why I like taxes to many people.  It can be either small salaries, or maybe too much taxes.  Someone can be very greedy and therefore taxes are indignant.  But we must understand that the state exists not only thanks to state enterprises, but also due to taxes, through which there are social guarantees in the country, there are various structures, including medicine, the police, and security.  Any utilities also depend on taxpayers.  Therefore, before expressing our dissatisfaction with taxes, we can think about the real existence of our country.

Here in our country, we do have some salary bracket in paying taxes, those who are earning minimum salary are not required to pay income taxes, and many more, the bad thing is that seems like those who are earning higher don't have much take out money since they are oblige to pay high tax, so for me, it is not fair at all. Still, in the end we need to pay taxes for the benefit of the whole nation.

For me, it's fair because we have a minimum salary wage, and if you are in the minimum wage and paying almost the same amount of income taxes to those ppl that have above that minimum salary grade ( 20k up), it's quite an unfair right. The government conducts the study and the reason why those ppl are not required to pay some income taxes anymore because the minimum salary wage that there are earning is just sufficient to there daily bills/ cost of living. Take note that your salary wage is depending on what salary grade you are, and also, we have provincial rates and national rates.

Taxes are good for common people as far as that money gets utilized for facilitating them with education, health and shelter stuff but what for those country where government does not spend the taxation money for the betterment of public. This is one of the reason why I am in favor of bitcoin because that way no one can really control my money and I do not have to pay any tax because no one really knows how much of it I have. Anonymity.

Same reason actually I have for supporting the concept of tax free society because there are majority of the countries where rich people don’t pay due taxes and the whole burden falls on the shoulders of job holders who are already making both ends meet hardly. They still pay taxes which are then not used on them or for them. So it’s better to boycott taxes. 

[desticy]

Money rules the world - it's true. Values of private property and private accumulation.
To change the world, you first need to change the values of people, they must live for each other and not for themselves,
in this case the course will be dominated by the development of a society that does not know diseases, hunger, local crises associated with local culture, and so on.

[DaftAjax]

Same reason actually I have for supporting the concept of tax free society because there are majority of the countries where rich people don’t pay due taxes and the whole burden falls on the shoulders of job holders who are already making both ends meet hardly. They still pay taxes which are then not used on them or for them. So it’s better to boycott taxes. 

Not paying taxes is illegal, a crime even. So are you saying that all "rich" people do such a thing? Do you really think they don't pay their taxes because they're still "rich". They are "rich" because they know how to manage their money, and how to earn more money. That's their mentality, they don't have the same mentality as an ordinary citizen. I know that ordinary citizens are the majority of a country's population, but "rich" people are the ones who bring business/companies that help the economy and provide jobs/work. Do you really think the government is the one who provides the jobs?

Money rules the world - it's true. Values of private property and private accumulation.
To change the world, you first need to change the values of people, they must live for each other and not for themselves,
in this case the course will be dominated by the development of a society that does not know diseases, hunger, local crises associated with local culture, and so on.

I want to believe you, and I also want that to happen. BUT that's the very definition of naivety. Believe me, many people already tried, they tried so hard but to no avail. I know people are still trying. But the thing is, you can't really impose your ideals to everyone, just because you think that way doesn't mean everyone should, or rather everyone should are convinced on the way you think, just because you said so.

[deisik]

Same reason actually I have for supporting the concept of tax free society because there are majority of the countries where rich people don’t pay due taxes and the whole burden falls on the shoulders of job holders who are already making both ends meet hardly. They still pay taxes which are then not used on them or for them. So it’s better to boycott taxes. 

Not paying taxes is illegal, a crime even. So are you saying that all "rich" people do such a thing? Do you really think they don't pay their taxes because they're still "rich". They are "rich" because they know how to manage their money, and how to earn more money

He probably meant something different

Rich people can hire expert tax lawyers so that they can avoid paying taxes in a quasilegal way by exploiting loopholes their lawyers find. Obviously, common people have neither experience (and time) to do that on their own nor money to hire someone who can do that on their behalf. In other words, rich people have way more options in this regard, and given their mentality (as you correctly point out), they won't have any scruples about using these options and tactics to their advantage whenever possible

That's their mentality, they don't have the same mentality as an ordinary citizen

Let's call it a capitalist mentality

[STT]

Do you really think they don't pay their taxes because they're still "rich". They are "rich" because they know how to manage their money,

The point is that taxes hurt the poorest people most and for a variety of reasons.   Somebody rich can place their money anywhere in the world quite easily.    Just considering the scale of being rich means you can in many cases literally hire a manager, an accountant and various other measures to best address any tax regime.   The poorest people can barely afford to pay the bus driver for the trip nevermind have a proper capital management system.    High taxes dont work, if they at any point attempt to throw the majority of tax on the richest people then it will also fail as the richest are most able to divert capital over seas or to whatever method best avoids the tax.   
  I'd hope its not too far for people to realise taxes are always going to be paid off by the majority, almost nothing can stop that being the case.     Attempts at extreme confiscation of capital also fail and deprive a country of its most talented labour and so on.   The best economy is a competitive market place available to all, at least people are given the opportunity to thrive.

[huige007]

I think that everyone deep down understands the importance of taxes for the country, but he will always resist this, because there are a lot of points why I like taxes to many people.  It can be either small salaries, or maybe too much taxes.  Someone can be very greedy and therefore taxes are indignant.  But we must understand that the state exists not only thanks to state enterprises, but also due to taxes, through which there are social guarantees in the country, there are various structures, including medicine, the police, and security.  Any utilities also depend on taxpayers.  Therefore, before expressing our dissatisfaction with taxes, we can think about the real existence of our country.

Here in our country, we do have some salary bracket in paying taxes, those who are earning minimum salary are not required to pay income taxes, and many more, the bad thing is that seems like those who are earning higher don't have much take out money since they are oblige to pay high tax, so for me, it is not fair at all. Still, in the end we need to pay taxes for the benefit of the whole nation.

For me, it's fair because we have a minimum salary wage, and if you are in the minimum wage and paying almost the same amount of income taxes to those ppl that have above that minimum salary grade ( 20k up), it's quite an unfair right. The government conducts the study and the reason why those ppl are not required to pay some income taxes anymore because the minimum salary wage that there are earning is just sufficient to there daily bills/ cost of living. Take note that your salary wage is depending on what salary grade you are, and also, we have provincial rates and national rates.

Taxes are good for common people as far as that money gets utilized for facilitating them with education, health and shelter stuff but what for those country where government does not spend the taxation money for the betterment of public. This is one of the reason why I am in favor of bitcoin because that way no one can really control my money and I do not have to pay any tax because no one really knows how much of it I have. Anonymity.

Same reason actually I have for supporting the concept of tax free society because there are majority of the countries where rich people don’t pay due taxes and the whole burden falls on the shoulders of job holders who are already making both ends meet hardly. They still pay taxes which are then not used on them or for them. So it’s better to boycott taxes. 

I guess this is the time when working class shall hold government accountable for all the useless taxes that are imposed on them and are not even used for their welfare. I am happy that crypto currencies are decentralized and governments are unable to put taxes on them. Bitcoin is setting people free from this headache so soon whole world be supporting it.

[DaftAjax]

Not paying taxes is illegal, a crime even. So are you saying that all "rich" people do such a thing? Do you really think they don't pay their taxes because they're still "rich". They are "rich" because they know how to manage their money, and how to earn more money

He probably meant something different

Rich people can hire expert tax lawyers so that they can avoid paying taxes in a quasilegal way by exploiting loopholes their lawyers find. Obviously, common people have neither experience (and time) to do that on their own nor money to hire someone who can do that on their behalf. In other words, rich people have way more options in this regard, and given their mentality (as you correctly point out), they won't have any scruples about using these options and tactics to their advantage whenever possible

Do you really think they don't pay their taxes because they're still "rich". They are "rich" because they know how to manage their money,

The point is that taxes hurt the poorest people most and for a variety of reasons.   Somebody rich can place their money anywhere in the world quite easily.    Just considering the scale of being rich means you can in many cases literally hire a manager, an accountant and various other measures to best address any tax regime.   The poorest people can barely afford to pay the bus driver for the trip nevermind have a proper capital management system.    High taxes dont work, if they at any point attempt to throw the majority of tax on the richest people then it will also fail as the richest are most able to divert capital over seas or to whatever method best avoids the tax.   
  I'd hope its not too far for people to realise taxes are always going to be paid off by the majority, almost nothing can stop that being the case.     Attempts at extreme confiscation of capital also fail and deprive a country of its most talented labour and so on.   The best economy is a competitive market place available to all, at least people are given the opportunity to thrive.

I appreciate the thorough explanation from both of you. And I also apologize if my statement is quite misleading. Because that is also what I really meant when I said, 'They are "rich" because they know how to manage their money'. But what I really want to point out is that, however rich people "dodge" tax by hiring tax-lawyers, managers and such--in the end they will still pay taxes, but as both of you mention, they will find a way just to reduce the amount they ought to pay, which is, the majority of people would say is unjust/unfair.

That's their mentality, they don't have the same mentality as an ordinary citizen

Let's call it a capitalist mentality

I guess that's the right term.

[Google+]

I think the idea of no tax is very lucrative for all countries because people do not need to give money anymore to the government and do not need to pay wealth tax, but I think if the country does not have tax payments then the country cannot develop, usually money from taxes will be used for development the country.

[deisik]

But what I really want to point out is that, however rich people "dodge" tax by hiring tax-lawyers, managers and such--in the end they will still pay taxes, but as both of you mention, they will find a way just to reduce the amount they ought to pay, which is, the majority of people would say is unjust/unfair

In today's world this "reduction" can easily turn negative

And you heard it right, and I'm not kidding. First of all, global corporations can easily earn money in one place and pay taxes in a completely different one, different as in another country on a different continent. See where I'm getting at? In this fashion, the reduction is not about paying less as it is more about not paying anything at all in the given jurisdiction. The financial papers will only show losses according to local law

Further, this approach lets you not only evade taxes but actually ask for subsidies from the local government as you can hide your real income in another jurisdiction and show losses in the one where you find it instrumental for your business. This is a real thing and an annoying problem with multinational corporations. As you can see, they can easily turn from cash cows into vampires by sucking blood from national economies

[BonfireBob]

The first thing I thought about when saw this topic, is that no taxes means more money, yes, maybe, but from the other side, there will be no social wellness anywhere. In job, at the supermarket, at any place you will have no social wellness. If now you get hurt and/or need to go to a doctor you can do that very easily without paying most of the times because we have many free offers from the government. When paying taxes you kind of pay for your social and all the other kinds of wellness. Of course, when taxes are too high it's not good too.

[Silberman]

Money rules the world - it's true. Values of private property and private accumulation.
To change the world, you first need to change the values of people, they must live for each other and not for themselves,
in this case the course will be dominated by the development of a society that does not know diseases, hunger, local crises associated with local culture, and so on.

You cannot change human nature, it may seem easy to try to make people more charitable and to worry about others instead of themselves, but that is never going to work, everyone can see the benefits of working hard in order to obtain some money so you could spend it in whatever you want, but very few can see the benefits of working hard getting that money and then giving that money to someone else, this is one of the reasons of why communism will never work.

[tambok]

Money rules the world - it's true. Values of private property and private accumulation.
To change the world, you first need to change the values of people, they must live for each other and not for themselves,
in this case the course will be dominated by the development of a society that does not know diseases, hunger, local crises associated with local culture, and so on.

You cannot change human nature, it may seem easy to try to make people more charitable and to worry about others instead of themselves, but that is never going to work, everyone can see the benefits of working hard in order to obtain some money so you could spend it in whatever you want, but very few can see the benefits of working hard getting that money and then giving that money to someone else, this is one of the reasons of why communism will never work.

I agree, you should think of yourself first before trying to help others, I have learned from some financial experts stating that, it is okay to help people, but don't help them by giving them fish, but by giving them tools that they will use to fish. Also based on my experience, when I do have nothing at all, and no one helps me, that's my motivation to work harder and not to just seek help from other people.