[SCAM] BetCoin.ag closed account and stole around 1 BTC

[zikzik]

It is too easy to say that a broker has access to all information, and the player in question does not. That is very unusual. A player has every right to know what he has done wrong, and is also entitled to all evidence. You do not have to make that evidence public, but send it to zikzik via email for example.

I have filed a claim 4 days ago and apart from an automated response acknowledgement of the claim recipience, i  have not heard a word from them ...

betcoin.ag will not tell here (or to me privately) what was done wrong because of two big reasons:

1. In the very first post here i have already stated and admitted to what i have done wrong.
2. Nothing else was done wrong and they simply cant have any other evidence.

Now, the representative may come back here and even reply to you. But he will use some general sentences about how they spend many bitcoins on their state of the art security systems and they dont want to give out sensitive information here, so others cant abuse it. Its all a cover up.

They always talk about some abuse, but never ever really explained what was this abuse about exactly ...

There was no abuse at all. My account was in BIG minus, and the other account had not made any withdrawals.

They stated that the two of use have betted some low market games, where we accumulated almost 100% of total bets on the platform. But they would never tell you (or anybody else for that matter) for how much (in percent for example) those bets accounted in terms of the whole turnover on the account...

I can tell you... for example i maybe have betted and won around 0.02-0.03 btc on some low level beach volleyball game, and the next day (or same day) loose 0.3-0.4 btc on Vietnamese basketball game (also a very low level market).

They would never tell the BitcoinTalk community ANY DETAILS of my "abusive" betting (even if i gave them the permission to disclose my information about it), because if they did, most members of the community would immediately understand the manipulation and scamming they are running in this situation ...

[1714759718]

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[1714759718]

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[Betcoin.AG]

It is too easy to say that a broker has access to all information, and the player in question does not. That is very unusual. A player has every right to know what he has done wrong, and is also entitled to all evidence. You do not have to make that evidence public, but send it to zikzik via email for example.

What you are suggesting is that we give lessons to a cheater on how to not get caught next time. What is your specific issue with having one or more 3rd party mediators review the evidence and make an impartial decision based on it?

We have reached out to SBR to see if they will be taking this case and also suggested several other routes the player can take to receive mediation. Thank you.

[toast]

There are 4 negative trusts with your account. they did not out fall out of the sky, betcoin. this situation is certainly not going to make that any better. I also think your reason is nonsense about cheating. if someone has done something wrong, you can claim it but you also have to provide proof. isn't he entitled to that? if I stand in court and am charged, I also get all the evidence from the judge or the public prosecutor. then they do not say "this information is only available to the courts or the public prosecutor". you are 100% entitled to the documents and information, and that is also the case in this case.

betcoin probably only does this now so that any burden of proof is not there at all and then there is nothing to show. typical case of scam as I see it now
stop with your fairytale and give the user proof what he has done wrong

[BTCGOLD]

I do not see why SBR must be involved in this matter actually. It is much better to settle it directly with the customer. And besides that, how can we know that everything goes fair?
SBR is not a lawyer firm or something.

[Hhampuz]

I do not see why SBR must be involved in this matter actually. It is much better to settle it directly with the customer. And besides that, how can we know that everything goes fair?
SBR is not a lawyer firm or something.

"What you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room thread is now dumber for having listened read it."

-Slightly modified quote from James Downey as the principal in Billy Madison (1995).

[Betcoin.AG]

I do not see why SBR must be involved in this matter actually. It is much better to settle it directly with the customer. And besides that, how can we know that everything goes fair?
SBR is not a lawyer firm or something.

We think the matter has already been resolved appropriately. He disagrees. This is why it cannot be settled with the player. A 3rd party mediator will determine the best course of further action. SBR is the authority in these matters, however we have agreed to respond to this dispute and accept the result from any impartial body.

[leventturksoy]

It is too easy to say that a broker has access to all information, and the player in question does not. That is very unusual. A player has every right to know what he has done wrong, and is also entitled to all evidence. You do not have to make that evidence public, but send it to zikzik via email for example.

What you are suggesting is that we give lessons to a cheater on how to not get caught next time. What is your specific issue with having one or more 3rd party mediators review the evidence and make an impartial decision based on it?

We have reached out to SBR to see if they will be taking this case and also suggested several other routes the player can take to receive mediation. Thank you.

I usually don't get involved in controversial issues such as these, since it may seem like I am taking sides, but I would like to add my perspective on this.

Enforcing a player to resort to legal action is a really, really easy way to scare away existing and potential players. Having your BTC locked up by a 3rd party is most bitcoiners worst nighmare - especially on exchanges. Although Betcoin has some reasoning as well as legal rights to keep the player's Bitcoin, it is not only unprofessional, but unnecessary and incredibly damaging to the casino's already diminished reputation. Casino's survive on reputation and holding up a mere 1 BTC is doing 10 fold of damage.

Like I said, I don't like to pick sides, but this thread has taken off and as a result I see it illogical to damage your casino's reputation permanently for such an insignificant amount of BTC. You may be just fine legally , but in the grand scheme of things that really doesn't matter to anyone besides the OP and sheds bad light.

[zikzik]

We think the matter has already been resolved appropriately. He disagrees. This is why it cannot be settled with the player. A 3rd party mediator will determine the best course of further action. SBR is the authority in these matters, however we have agreed to respond to this dispute and accept the result from any impartial body.

LOL, LOL, wait

Are you calling stealing my btc - "resolved appropriately" ?

[Betcoin.AG]

I usually don't get involved in controversial issues such as these, since it may seem like I am taking sides, but I would like to add my perspective on this.

Enforcing a player to resort to legal action is a really, really easy way to scare away existing and potential players. Having your BTC locked up by a 3rd party is most bitcoiners worst nighmare - especially on exchanges. Although Betcoin has some reasoning as well as legal rights to keep the player's Bitcoin, it is not only unprofessional, but unnecessary and incredibly damaging to the casino's already diminished reputation. Casino's survive on reputation and holding up a mere 1 BTC is doing 10 fold of damage.

Like I said, I don't like to pick sides, but this thread has taken off and as a result I see it illogical to damage your casino's reputation permanently for such an insignificant amount of BTC. You may be just fine legally , but in the grand scheme of things that really doesn't matter to anyone besides the OP and sheds bad light.

As we said, we know that this is the difficult way to go about things for us. However it is also important that we discourage both this player and other dishonest players from coming to Betcoin, coming to other online casinos or cheating in general. This is not a new thing or something unique to Betcoin. Every online casino and sportsbook bans fraudulent players every day. The only thing noteworthy about this case is the attention it has received.  

Using a proxy does not mean that we cannot see where you are playing from. Literally 10 minutes ago, we dealt with another player who was playing from a banned region. We asked him where he was from and he originally lied. We then told him that we know he is playing from a banned region and he admitted it and will receive his full account balance. Had he continued lying, it would have shown malicious intent. Instead, he admitted having lied about his location and in our opinion, that was not enough to withhold his balance.

The OP has not only played from a banned region, but created multiple accounts to abuse the tight limits that we have on low tiered matches.  This is fraud and will not be tolerated. We want the community to know this. We also think that the vast majority of players, who are honest, know that if they play legitimately, they will receive their winnings in a timely manner and won't have to go through legal action. We pay out tens of thousands of legitimate players each week, many who receive much larger amounts than this player. As you said, this amount of BTC is nominal. What is important is the message we are sending that we will not tolerate abusive players. This player knows exactly what he has done and is playing the role of someone who is naive. He chose to sign up from a banned region and chose to cheat the site, knowing what was at risk. We have solid proof if this. If SBR doesn't think the proof is solid, they will rule against us and we will comply.

[zikzik]

but created multiple accounts to abuse the tight limits that we have on low tiered matches.

abuse the tight limits on low tiered matches to loose 1.8 btc ?


please, this information that i ask you next is not at all connected to your security. I ask you to provide the list of the bets i took, so the community can see what exactly happened. Please, provide a list of all the bets i took. Lets see how exactly i abused your "tight limits".

These are the bets i took. I know them. Please provide this information there. I authorize you to disclose this my personal info. It can do you no harm, right ?

PS. I am citizen of a EU country not listed as banned in your TOS. I have only ever used a single personal account on your site.

[scammed-by-nitro]

This thread should be a warning to all players.

Do not trust this site. The way they handle this situation is ridiculous.
And now they say we wait what sbr says. How the fuck is that the problem of the OP?
Show the bets he played. Tell him what is account balance is!!

You dont show ANYTHING.

They dont show any proof and seize money from an account that is already down well over 1btc.

What a scam.

[leventturksoy]

I usually don't get involved in controversial issues such as these, since it may seem like I am taking sides, but I would like to add my perspective on this.

Enforcing a player to resort to legal action is a really, really easy way to scare away existing and potential players. Having your BTC locked up by a 3rd party is most bitcoiners worst nighmare - especially on exchanges. Although Betcoin has some reasoning as well as legal rights to keep the player's Bitcoin, it is not only unprofessional, but unnecessary and incredibly damaging to the casino's already diminished reputation. Casino's survive on reputation and holding up a mere 1 BTC is doing 10 fold of damage.

Like I said, I don't like to pick sides, but this thread has taken off and as a result I see it illogical to damage your casino's reputation permanently for such an insignificant amount of BTC. You may be just fine legally , but in the grand scheme of things that really doesn't matter to anyone besides the OP and sheds bad light.

As we said, we know that this is the difficult way to go about things for us. However it is also important that we discourage both this player and other dishonest players from coming to Betcoin, coming to other online casinos or cheating in general. This is not a new thing or something unique to Betcoin. Every online casino and sportsbook bans fraudulent players every day. The only thing noteworthy about this case is the attention it has received.  

Using a proxy does not mean that we cannot see where you are playing from. Literally 10 minutes ago, we dealt with another player who was playing from a banned region. We asked him where he was from and he originally lied. We then told him that we know he is playing from a banned region and he admitted it and will receive his full account balance. Had he continued lying, it would have shown malicious intent. Instead, he admitted having lied about his location and in our opinion, that was not enough to withhold his balance.

The OP has not only played from a banned region, but created multiple accounts to abuse the tight limits that we have on low tiered matches.  This is fraud and will not be tolerated. We want the community to know this. We also think that the vast majority of players, who are honest, know that if they play legitimately, they will receive their winnings in a timely manner and won't have to go through legal action. We pay out tens of thousands of legitimate players each week, many who receive much larger amounts than this player. As you said, this amount of BTC is nominal. What is important is the message we are sending that we will not tolerate abusive players. This player knows exactly what he has done and is playing the role of someone who is naive. He chose to sign up from a banned region and chose to cheat the site, knowing what was at risk. We have solid proof if this. If SBR doesn't think the proof is solid, they will rule against us and we will comply.

I'm going to quote one part of what you said - it does not make the rest of what you said invalid, I just thought I should pay special attention to it:

Using a proxy does not mean that we cannot see where you are playing from. Literally 10 minutes ago, we dealt with another player who was playing from a banned region. We asked him where he was from and he originally lied. We then told him that we know he is playing from a banned region and he admitted it and will receive his full account balance. Had he continued lying, it would have shown malicious intent. Instead, he admitted having lied about his location and in our opinion, that was not enough to withhold his balance.

-snip- and also:

What is important is the message we are sending that we will not tolerate abusive players.

Why exactly does lying escalate the issue and case into something that deems the balance un-returnable? It makes perfect sense to lie in that case. If I'm a suspect for a crime and I am asked to confess, without me knowing if the other party has proof, of course I will lie. Any logical person would. It has nothing to do with ethics, I can guarantee the vast majority of even "good" people would lie and say that they did nothing wrong. It only makes sense.

Regardless of what the suspect here did, I think it's unfair that lying about such a thing is a deciding factor. I see this response almost as "we're making a public statement by withholding this user's funds" - which to me, is unreasonable because it shows impartial favor to other cheaters who had their funds returned. I hear about major criminal cases often where the suspect is subject to an insane verdict for the sole reason of deterrence to scare the public away from doing the crime that the suspect committed. Stomping on someone's well-being from a position of power in order to make a public statement is frowned upon because it is a direct abuse of power.

I'll make an assumption here and assume that most of the cheaters that you encounter on Betcoin will not see this thread and be encouraged to cheat should they see you return this user's funds, nor will any cheaters on your website be encouraged not to cheat. It is a poor way to make a public statement.

[Betcoin.AG]

Why exactly does lying escalate the issue and case into something that deems the balance un-returnable?

You misunderstood the analogy. We are comparing the intent of a player who simply wanted to enjoy Betcoin and made a mistake with the intent of a player who has been caught lying multiple times and continues to do so. His funds are being withheld because of fraud.

I'll make an assumption here and assume that most of the cheaters that you encounter on Betcoin will not see this thread and be encouraged to cheat should they see you return this user's funds, nor will any cheaters on your website be encouraged not to cheat. It is a poor way to make a public statement.

That is not a good assumption, from our experience. As we have stated, we still have players from 2.5 years ago when we banned this person's region who return back monthly, attempting to defraud the site. We have gained access to Discord and Telegram groups with thousands of members where the entire purpose is discussing new ways to defraud sportsbooks. We see the reactions in these groups when players start getting banned and it usually dies down for a while. However, as any member of the Bitcoin community should know, cheaters will continue trying to cheat. This is their life's work. It only takes a few times not getting caught and they are good for the year.

[zikzik]

player who has been caught lying multiple times and continues to do so.

NAME ONE LIE, that i have said here. ONE LIE and PROVE IT !!!

[leventturksoy]

Why exactly does lying escalate the issue and case into something that deems the balance un-returnable?

You misunderstood the analogy. We are comparing the intent of a player who simply wanted to enjoy Betcoin and made a mistake with the intent of a player who has been caught lying multiple times and continues to do so. His funds are being withheld because of fraud.

I'll make an assumption here and assume that most of the cheaters that you encounter on Betcoin will not see this thread and be encouraged to cheat should they see you return this user's funds, nor will any cheaters on your website be encouraged not to cheat. It is a poor way to make a public statement.

That is not a good assumption, from our experience. As we have stated, we still have players from 2.5 years ago when we banned this person's region who return back monthly, attempting to defraud the site. We have gained access to Discord and Telegram groups with thousands of members where the entire purpose is discussing new ways to defraud sportsbooks. We see the reactions in these groups when players start getting banned and it usually dies down for a while. However, as any member of the Bitcoin community should know, cheaters will continue trying to cheat. This is their life's work. It only takes a few times not getting caught and they are good for the year.

I think that that is what I was getting at - you are withholding this user's funds, not because purely of fraud, but because it helps you to reduce future incidents of cheating. This is deterrence, and it is not a good reason to withhold funds.

...

However that is merely opinion that it is not good. It will likely reduce the number of cheaters, but it carries heavy consequences such as damaging your reputation permanently.

[Betcoin.AG]

I think that that is what I was getting at - you are withholding this user's funds, not because purely of fraud, but because it helps you to reduce future incidents of cheating. This is deterrence, and it is not a good reason to withhold funds.

...

However that is merely opinion that it is not good. It will likely reduce the number of cheaters, but it carries heavy consequences such as damaging your reputation permanently.

We do thank you for your feedback and we understand your point, of course. As mentioned, this is not a Betcoin thing, but a policy of every online casino and sportsbook in cases of extreme abuse, such as this. Additionally, by encouraging 3rd party mediation, we have left this in the hands of the industry experts, who will make the final decision here.
We don't think this will affect our reputation with legitimate players and we truly believe that once this is resolved, we will be stronger than ever.

[scammed-by-nitro]

Why dont you answer what OP is asking your for?

Show the bets in question, tell him about the account balance.

All you do is dodge questions and give useless replies like its not your problem anymore. I guess there will never be a reply from sbr as the mostly dont.
I hope your reputation takes a dive. Your feedback here says it all, especially the "Untrusted feedback" . Countless complaints.

[RichGang]

i think betcoin knows exactly what he is doing. he knows those people will never respond or even if they do, they will side the casino. there should be other ways to resolve ths other than those people. ask these guy to prove his location in the most complex way available. this shitt right here is pure scam. the most annoying part is them playing victim

[wildan88]

i think betcoin knows exactly what he is doing. he knows those people will never respond or even if they do, they will side the casino. there should be other ways to resolve ths other than those people. ask these guy to prove his location in the most complex way available. this shitt right here is pure scam. the most annoying part is them playing victim

I think I have to agree that some shady things are going on. What Betcoin.ag is telling the customer, does not make any sense. The fact that they do not know even which countries are allowed to play, is already a red flag in my onion. However, they should solve this with the customer. SBR as mediator is really not needed. It is like they are the judge who decides what needs to be done. A very strange decision.
Their argument that they do not want to display the information the customer is also ridiculous. He has the right to know the information.
For me, Betcoin.ag is hiding things now. Play open card and hand the information over to the user. If he is wrong, proof it with evidence. If not, then we can only assume you are trying to steal the funds.
Easy as that.

[nullius]

Using a proxy does not mean that we cannot see where you are playing from.

The only way for this statement to be true within its four corners is with some rather sophisticated browser fingerprinting/tracking.^*

With that, it is very true.

* Or with browser geolocation APIs; but those are permissioned, and I would presume that anyone trying to hide his location would not grant permission for that.

I mention this not to help any miscreants, but rather, to point out that privacy on the Web (and otherwise!) is practically nonexistent.  Yes, every website that you visit can know who you are, where you are, and what you have been doing—if they really want to.  Mostly, this is used for ad profiling, corporate data mining, and mass surveillance.

It can be avoided.  Successfully avoiding it with a VPN or proxy requires considerable expertise.  Tor Browser has some of that expertise built into its design and implementation; but Tor is slow, Tor Browser breaks on many sites, and there are still some potential holes that can only be (more or less) mitigated by disabling Javascript.

Now, if anybody was wondering why I complain about Javascript, and about most of the Web being completely useless to me nowadays, here is one good reason...

Also a VPN doesn't really do shit if you're being fingerprinted. It will hide your browsing from your ISP but wont hide your privacy from Google

Every which way, if you’re trying to get away with something, webs and webs and webs are not very helpful.

O, what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!

It is one reason why I tend to think that Betcoin.AG probably has something solid to show the mediator.  There are so very many ways that they could have the evidence that they claim to have; and the types of people who do multi-accounting to cheat on sportsbet site rules are unlikely to be technical experts in privacy and security.

Anyway, the mediator will need to take a look at whatever it is.

To be clear, the foregoing is not a Betcoin-specific issue.  If you do not want to use websites that may track you, then you need to more or less STOP USING THE WEB altogether.  And if you carry a mobile phone, then you are a total idiot.