[SCAM] BetCoin.ag closed account and stole around 1 BTC

[nasipadang]

It may also feel like despair if you have to wait and you can't do anything. However, the only thing they can do now is wait until a result of investigation comes from the mediator.

After that you can always argue or enter into a discussion what the course of events is. I think speculating at the moment is of little use.

The truth will be somewhere in the middle, it's just a matter of waiting now.

bro, lets call a spade a spade. these guys dont respond to messages like this and even if they do, they dont investigate the allegations thoroughly. betcoin knows that that is why they had to use this route.

Maybe, but maybe not. I do not have any experience with betcoin so I can not share it.
What really odd is, is that they refuse to provide any kind of evidence to the player in question. They should at least hand over the information to the player.
The argument that they can not, because then the player would be able to cheat better the next time, is f** bullshit of course.

[nullius]

Sorry, zikzik, I did not see your reply before.  When I see RichGang as the latest poster in my Updated Topics list, I just sort of ignore the thread for awhile.

sorry nullius, i dont want to seem rude, and i really have no right to, but ...

this is not the first time you somehow dont read everything and then make your bold assumptions and "on paper" also accusing me of some wrongdoings ...

The account from Montenegro would not cover the losses on my account.


why would i create another account "to scam" them, if i am loosing big in mine anyways?

Although I am not an expert in sportsbook abuse schemes, it is my understanding that if you pull such a scheme, then you may win some here, lose some there—it is still gambling, but gambling with an unfair advantage.  Moreover, it would give you an unfair advantage over all of the people who play fairly, according to the rules.  If you are innocent here—if you yourself were playing fairly, according to all of the site’s rules—then surely, you must find such a thing objectionable!

The cost to the site from unfair play is ultimately borne by the innocent players, of course.  Otherwise, the site would go out of business.  I think that people who play by the rules should be glad that sites make sure that everybody follows the same rules.

betcoin.ag has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to connect me to the Montenegro account, apart from the things i have admitted in my original post:

1. Same wallet address for deposit
2. Some amount of the same (similar) bets

As I have explained multiple times, both here and in the KILLYMNE thread, I infer that they must have some other type of significant evidence.  They must.  And if they don’t, then the mediator should kick their arses!

I will not explain further, because just in case you are guilty, I do not want to give you hints about how to get away with it next time.

My perspective on this case—if you are new here, then you would not know:  I have a reputation on this forum for technical expertise, specifically as to (a) Bitcoin, and also (b) privacy, security, and anonymity technologies.  If you ask around here, then even the many people who hate me will admit that I know much on such topics, if they are fair.  :-)

Tor user here.  Cypherpunk who remembers that it took an excruciatingly long time to generate 4096-bit RSA PGP keys on 90s hardware.  I am strictly pseudonymous.  I am so dedicated to encrypting everything, everywhere, all the time,

You seem to know your privacy stuff. I respect people who work on their opsec.

Laudatory Lore.

The argument that they can not, because then the player would be able to cheat better the next time, is f** bullshit of course.

That is not correct.  As I have said multiple times, at considerable length.  Anyone with significant expertise in network security and abuse handling would know this to be the case.

If (if) Betcoin.AG has the type of technical evidence that I infer they must, then disclosing that evidence would indeed be tantamount to providing an instruction manual titled, “How Not to Get Caught Next Time”.

It is why I have repeatedly urged that the mediator should examine such evidence in depth, in strict confidence (and if necessary, with a consult from an expert in the manner of an expert witness).  This type of evidence can be complicated; and as discussed below, the mediator should not simply take Betcoin.AG’s word for what it means.

this is exactly how the scam works . the victim is already giving up. this is exactly what the scammer betcoin is looking for

Yes, it is so very plausible that somebody rich like you would just give up and forget about “around 1 BTC”.  /s

As are many others, I am awaiting news about the SBR mediation.  In fairness to all parties, I hope that the mediator will take adequate time to understand and interpret potentially complex evidence; but the case should nonetheless be disposed as promptly as practicable.

I observe that if zikzik is innocent, then it is to his advantage for the mediator to take some time scrutinizing the evidence.  Betcoin.AG gave the mediator something.  If that something is wrong, then the mediator needs to figure out what is wrong with it—if that something is right, then the mediator needs to understand it so as to make a clear judgment.  Whatever Betcoin.AG showed the mediator, the mediator should not rubber-stamp it!

We have just submitted our 6 page, 2100 word report with 27 screenshots to the mediator.  They have many cases to rule on and this one has an enormous amount of information, so we ask for your patience while this is resolved. It is also possible they will need some additional information from either us or the OP prior to making a ruling. We will update the community with the results. Thank you.

I think that the highlighted portion shows good faith from Betcoin.AG.  If they wanted for the mediator to say, “OK, wow, you showed me lots of fancy stuff!  You win!  Case closed!”, then that would be very bad; and if SBR rushed through here, then the SBR mediation process itself would lack credibility.

My perspective:  I have dealt with real-world litigation in which the judge pretty much just rubber-stamped impressive piles of stupidity.  Fair and judicious consideration of the evidence takes time.

That said, obviously, it is in the interest of all parties to get this over with as promptly as practicable.  The longer that SBR takes, the longer that this thread will continue; that is certainly not in Betcoin.AG’s best interest.

[zikzik]

If (if) Betcoin.AG has the type of technical evidence that I infer they must, then disclosing that evidence would indeed be tantamount to providing an instruction manual titled, “How Not to Get Caught Next Time”.

I have been finally asked the questions by the mediator, and as i was saying ALL ALONG, betcoin.ag main argument is in 3 fields

1. IP/VPN (and they dont connect the two accounts based on this)
2. same btc wallet address
3. some same bets at the same time

Now all these 3 points i have admitted in my very first post here.

Now, PLEASE PLEASE think of ANY reason, that they would not release the list of bets here. How would your (and their obviously) argument of "manual titled, “How Not to Get Caught Next Time”" apply here?

IF the other account was also mine, I KNOW ALL THE BETS I TOOK IN 2 ACCOUNTS

so what harm could listing the bets here would do? (when both account holders gave them the permission to disclose that information here)

the answer is simple - ANY person, who understands even a little in betting, will very fast figure out that the two accounts in question belong to different people.

I have asked, and asked, and asked for this information. But they would not post it here TO COVER THEIR LIES.

[nullius]

If (if) Betcoin.AG has the type of technical evidence that I infer they must, then disclosing that evidence would indeed be tantamount to providing an instruction manual titled, “How Not to Get Caught Next Time”.

I have been finally asked the questions by the mediator, and as i was saying ALL ALONG, betcoin.ag main argument is in 3 fields

1. IP/VPN (and they dont connect the two accounts based on this)
2. same btc wallet address
3. some same bets at the same time

Now all these 3 points i have admitted in my very first post here.

I obviously cannot speak to evidence that I have not seen.  However, Betcoin.AG has explicitly alleged that they have much more than that.

He suggested that his account was banned because of the same bets and same Bitcoin wallet. Obviously, this does raise red flags, but it is just a part of a greater body of evidence that we have on these 2 players. [...] He is playing dumb, but if you read through his posts, it's apparent he knows exactly what he is doing here.

Now, PLEASE PLEASE think of ANY reason, that they would not release the list of bets here. How would your (and their obviously) argument of "manual titled, “How Not to Get Caught Next Time”" apply here?

I have said my opinion that they should state your balance as requested (or at least provide some reason why they don’t).  I don’t know enough about their site to judge whether lists of bets could be in any way sensitive for their part; indeed, as I have said, I have never done sportsbook myself.  I do note, they said this:

We told him we would provide all wager and balance details to the mediator, but "around 1 BTC" is certainly enough to get things started.

Also, there is this:

He just simply ignores ANY request for some exact information. Hell, he even still did not provide anybody with the exact balance of my account. Can that somehow put their security protocols in scrutiny ?

I am guessing that it goes something along the lines of advice to the effect that, “If somebody is publicly accusing you of stealing money from him, and demanding that you specify the exact amount that he claims you stole, then STFU and don’t do discovery on a public forum.”

That said, I would think that this kind of information would need to be disclosed through any kind of a reasonable mediation process; and I do not see a reason why it should be kept confidential there.

How would your (and their obviously) argument of "manual titled, “How Not to Get Caught Next Time”" apply here?

C’mon, zikzik!  After all that I have said on the topic, let’s not play dumb here.  I was obviously talking about this:

We spend many Bitcoin each year on fraud prevention technology and every time the abusers discover what we have, they come up with new ways around them. As mentioned earlier in this thread, we have banned approximately 500 abusive accounts this year. Through cooperation with some of these accounts, we have gained access to several Discord and Telegram groups with thousands of members, which specifically teach players how to cheat sites, including different methods of exploitation, how to make your region undetectable and how to fake your KYC documents. We learn a lot from these cheats, and just like them, we adapt our security as well.

He suggested that his account was banned because of the same bets and same Bitcoin wallet. Obviously, this does raise red flags, but it is just a part of a greater body of evidence that we have on these 2 players. As this player knows well and stated in the title of this thread, his account balance was about 1 BTC. He is playing dumb, but if you read through his posts, it's apparent he knows exactly what he is doing here.

A message to cheaters:

It is easy to get away with malicious and abusive behaviour on naïve sites.  —Not easy on sites that are serious about catching you.

I know of open-source code that can do at least some part of what Betcoin.AG claims their security system can do.  It’s not a drop-in solution; it may require expensive consultant work to integrate into a site.  I am also aware that there exist proprietary commercial systems that can catch you red-handed, if you try to multi-account from a banned region from behind a VPN.  These are the same types of systems also used by banks, large cryptocurrency exchanges, and other financial institutions; the systems are expensive, and (unfortunately, in my opinion) quite commonplace in the industry.  On non-gambling sites, you are being invisibly checked by such systems every day.

I am not saying that that’s what happened here.  I am saying that it is a major issue that the mediator should inquire about.

We understand that in these cases, the benefit of the doubt can go to the player. Especially, since we are unable to share publicly the overwhelming evidence against him. The reason for this is that when dishonest players discover our tools to recognize fraud, they move on to new ways to cheat the system. We have invested heavily in these tools, as we get roughly 500 fraudulent players each year. If any of these accounts dispute their resolution, we encourage them to seek 3rd party mediation. In the last 4 years, we have had 0 rulings against us by independent 3rd parties. It is simply not in our best interest to hold this player's nominal winnings when we know going into it that we will have to defend ourselves in the public forum. Taking on this player in the public eye, we assume all the risk.

We have many players each day placing individual bets which are more than double the size of this player's total account balance. We love winners, and like all casinos, we love to promote our big winners, as it lends to our legitimacy and attracts new players. We kindly ask that you allow the process to take its course here and we strongly believe that we will end up on that right side of things. Thanks again to all, and we hope to resolve this matter as soon as possible.

In all fairness to you, zikzik, I do not know Betcoin.AG, I do not know if they are an honest site, and I cannot vouch for them.  I simply have never dealt with them before; and I do not vouch easily.

However, reading this thread (and the other one), I see that they say exactly what a legitimate site would say if they had high-tech fraud prevention technology that caught a cheater red-handed.

Only the mediator is in a position to ascertain whether or not that is what really happened here.

I observe that if zikzik is innocent, then it is to his advantage for the mediator to take some time scrutinizing the evidence.  Betcoin.AG gave the mediator something.  If that something is wrong, then the mediator needs to figure out what is wrong with it—if that something is right, then the mediator needs to understand it so as to make a clear judgment.  Whatever Betcoin.AG showed the mediator, the mediator should not rubber-stamp it!

[...]

That said, obviously, it is in the interest of all parties to get this over with as promptly as practicable.  The longer that SBR takes, the longer that this thread will continue; that is certainly not in Betcoin.AG’s best interest.

[nasipadang]

If (if) Betcoin.AG has the type of technical evidence that I infer they must, then disclosing that evidence would indeed be tantamount to providing an instruction manual titled, “How Not to Get Caught Next Time”.

I have been finally asked the questions by the mediator, and as i was saying ALL ALONG, betcoin.ag main argument is in 3 fields

1. IP/VPN (and they dont connect the two accounts based on this)
2. same btc wallet address
3. some same bets at the same time

Now all these 3 points i have admitted in my very first post here.

Now, PLEASE PLEASE think of ANY reason, that they would not release the list of bets here. How would your (and their obviously) argument of "manual titled, “How Not to Get Caught Next Time”" apply here?

IF the other account was also mine, I KNOW ALL THE BETS I TOOK IN 2 ACCOUNTS

so what harm could listing the bets here would do? (when both account holders gave them the permission to disclose that information here)

the answer is simple - ANY person, who understands even a little in betting, will very fast figure out that the two accounts in question belong to different people.

I have asked, and asked, and asked for this information. But they would not post it here TO COVER THEIR LIES.

I agree with this user. He has nothing to hide. And the story about not showing the evidence is ridiculous.
But, we can always see what the result will be. If he will not get his winnings, then for sure it is a conspiracy.

[nullius]

I agree with this user. He has nothing to hide. And the story about not showing the evidence is ridiculous.
But, we can always see what the result will be. If he will not get his winnings, then for sure it is a conspiracy.

Ah, I see what you did there.  It looks like a setup for a suggestion that if zikzik loses at mediation, then he should open a new Scam Accusation thread against SBR—and I guess, then there would need to be another Scam Accusation against SBR in KILLYMNE’s name. 

What you say is unfalsifiable, and also one-sided.  I presume that if SBR rules for zikzik and tells Betcoin.AG to pay, then you will praise the mediation process as absolutely fair—perfect justice!  Whereas you have already condemned it in advance, if it goes the other way.

—Tell me, why are you so sure about what you say the outcome should be?  I myself am careful to neither predict nor advocate the outcome—because I do not have access to the substantive evidence, and I have no connection to either of the parties.  Do you?

I think that Betcoin.AG presents a credible story on this thread; but I would not be surprised, if zikzik wins at mediation.  It could go either way, depending on the evidence!

I presume that the mediator is fair and impartial.  To allege otherwise would require evidence.

[zikzik]

the betcoing.ag representative (as well as some members of this well respected forum) just keep ditching my simple and very natural request/question:

list all the bets from the two accounts in question !!!

in my opinion it will of course prove that i am not the owner of the KillyPG account. While betcoin claim that i am, and they use the similar bet point as their major argument.

There is absolutely no security issue whatsoever with releasing this list here (as if i am the owner of both accounts, i have taken these bets and i obviously know all of them). Every neutral person would understand it. But of course, they would never do this, because it will really show how weak and stupid their "same bets" argument is.

They will just claim another security issue here and refuse to show the bets. You guys, as neutral spectators, can decide for yourself, what it really tells you about this bookie.

They just lie lie lie ...

[aomakun]

the betcoing.ag representative (as well as some members of this well respected forum) just keep ditching my simple and very natural request/question:

list all the bets from the two accounts in question !!!

in my opinion it will of course prove that i am not the owner of the KillyPG account. While betcoin claim that i am, and they use the similar bet point as their major argument.

There is absolutely no security issue whatsoever with releasing this list here (as if i am the owner of both accounts, i have taken these bets and i obviously know all of them). Every neutral person would understand it. But of course, they would never do this, because it will really show how weak and stupid their "same bets" argument is.

They will just claim another security issue here and refuse to show the bets. You guys, as neutral spectators, can decide for yourself, what it really tells you about this bookie.

They just lie lie lie ...

If Betcoin claims that you control both accounts, they will have to be 100% certain. And if they are, then they have no reason whatsoever to hand the information over to you, point taken and clear. You often see that bookmakers hide behind all kinds of nonsense reasons to not have to pay. Just for the record by the way, they mean with user "KillyPG" at this link: https://tipstertube.com/profile/killypg?
The fact that Betcoin now is hiding information, only makes them more suspicious.

nullius is only in this topic trying to defend Betcoin, I would not take his comments to serious.
Why should he spend so much time and effort into this if he does not have any interest at all 

[zikzik]

If Betcoin claims that you control both accounts, they will have to be 100% certain. And if they are, then they have no reason whatsoever to hand the information over to you, point taken and clear.

i never asked them for any technical information.

But they claim that based on the betting patterns (ie the bets we both took) they are absolutely certain that i own both accounts.

Well, if i own both accounts, what is the problem of listing all the bets here then? I would already know all of them (as they claim i took them in both accounts). This information would in NO WAY jeopardize any of their security protocols of course. Thats just a load of BS.

They dont want to show the bets both accounts took because it will be apparent that the two account owners are different people.

I have nothing against nullius really, but this statement is just too much  

"I don’t know enough about their site to judge whether lists of bets could be in any way sensitive for their part; indeed, as I have said, I have never done sportsbook myself"

these are the bets i and the other account owner took, so if i am both these people, i know them ANYWAYS... there is 0% risk for betcoin.ag to release them.

But ok, everybody has his own reasoning

[RichGang]

i have been gambling for several years and i know a scammer when i see one. betcoin is a scammer. this s an old trick, depo small and win they let you withdraw, depo big and lost they say nothing, depo bigger and win little , they come up with reasons to steal your money. lame ass reasons.

[zikzik]

one month has passed almost, still no resolution to this ...

[RichGang]

the scam was successful. now they will teach other new sites how to scam. betcoin should be avoided

[zikzik]

i should have some news soon ...

[vivekbets247]

what is the point of "neutral mediation companies" if they take ages to come to a resolution. By that time, judging from today, Bitcoin can be worth nothing

i joke about the bitcoin of course, but the rest is dead serious

[MI6]

i should have some news soon ...

Did you not heard anything from them so far?
I wonder why that mediator has not been heard from for so long. Surely they could at least have launched an investigation and kept the customer informed? At least then.

[Cryptobillionaire]

i should have some news soon ...

you are even falling for the obvious scam lol.

[zikzik]

i should have some news soon ...

you are even falling for the obvious scam lol.

what do you mean ?

[Cryptobillionaire]

i should have some news soon ...

you are even falling for the obvious scam lol.

what do you mean ?

you are actually waiting for the result of this . which is what they want you to do lol

[zikzik]

i should have some news soon ...

you are even falling for the obvious scam lol.

what do you mean ?

you are actually waiting for the result of this . which is what they want you to do lol

sorry man, i really dont understand your point yet ...
why would they want me to wait for the result? and why is it bad for me?

[zikzik]

I am happy to report, that after the mediation process (which was advised by the betcoin.ag representative from the very beginning) by the SBR (https://www.sportsbookreview.com/sportsbook-complaint/) a resolution has been made to this case and my funds are to be released.

As i have stated several times in my original post, this case was very far from easy from the very start. The moment i have signed up on Betcoin.ag website, i have already broke their terms and conditions, which unfortunately i did not read prior.

I have used the VPNs and as such my whole activity of course became suspicious to betcoin.ag security team.

A bit later, when my btc wallet was used to make a deposit to a different account, my activity had to be investigated further. This action by the betcoin.ag security team is of course justifiable, especially since they found out right away that the other account in question had some similar bets with my account (due to me being a tipster - a person, whose bets are followed by other bettors).

So all facts considered, i do understand that the activity of my account was suspicious to betcoin.ag and the investigation to follow was justifiable.

I am just happy that right away (in their initial response to my emails) betcoin.ag advised me to seek the mediation from the SBR.

Being a very emotional person, my first intention was to fight in public before any mediation. Well, it turns out, that all i had to do is wait for the SBR and betcoin.ag to investigate the case further.

Now i am happy that with the help of SBR and betcoin.ag security team we were able to come to an amicable solution where your account balance is released back to me.

I want to thank all the parties involved, and of course the BitCoinTalk community.