Lightning Network Observer

[franky1]

you might want to observe that exchanges do high volume trade and alot of cold wallet to hotwallet movements. so even a few hundred BTC is not a reserve problem for an exchange to lock to a coldwallet for months as their LN stash post peg. most exchanges have hundreds of thousands of coins in cold wallets.. so their reserves are not the problem

however it remains the issue of the routed hops within the network. the more that goes in the more multiples of that is needed just to supply those .. "other people payments" stuff

if LN acolytes/devoted users were wishing to actually have a good network. they would be prepared to actually observe, analyse and bug find issues.. instead of the head in the sand or in the clouds approach i always see

they would not fear making reports about the 'event success rate' of varied amounts. or model the scale of the network of average channels per node and nodes per network and average hops to reach the first 10% of participants, first 50% of participants and the majority 90% of participants..
(bitcoin devs didnt have this fear when they did their block propagation time trial reports)

but nah, LN acolytes fear observing the network and running scenarios, bug finding or actually looking outside the hype.

but hey,
if you want to stay in bliss and avoid stuff, then you will always be left questioning things and blaming it on an egg or a chicken. never realising the more eggs they make the more chickens they make.. chickens that are afraid of everything, and just hop around and never learn to fly.. oh and become very easy to pluck and roast

[1714278949]

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[cygan]

soon a new Bitcoin bar will open in manchester/england. drinks and food can be paid with lightning and there will also be lightning arcade and various workshops in the future
for more info visit👉satoshisplace.co.uk

[fillippone]

soon a new Bitcoin bar will open in manchester/england. drinks and food can be paid with lightning and there will also be lightning arcade and various workshops in the future
for more info visit👉satoshisplace.co.uk

I like these implementations of the LN, they have the great potential of showing the improvement of the LN user interface and the effectiveness of the payment processing.
This is what Jack Mallers has been trying to do in the US with the Strike integration in the NCR PoS. (Point of Sale, not Proof of Stake! /j)

[Wind_FURY]

you might want to observe that exchanges do high volume trade and alot of cold wallet to hotwallet movements. so even a few hundred BTC is not a reserve problem for an exchange to lock to a coldwallet for months as their LN stash post peg. most exchanges have hundreds of thousands of coins in cold wallets.. so their reserves are not the problem

however it remains the issue of the routed hops within the network. the more that goes in the more multiples of that is needed just to supply those .. "other people payments" stuff

if LN acolytes/devoted users were wishing to actually have a good network. they would be prepared to actually observe, analyse and bug find issues.. instead of the head in the sand or in the clouds approach i always see

they would not fear making reports about the 'event success rate' of varied amounts. or model the scale of the network of average channels per node and nodes per network and average hops to reach the first 10% of participants, first 50% of participants and the majority 90% of participants..
(bitcoin devs didnt have this fear when they did their block propagation time trial reports)

but nah, LN acolytes fear observing the network and running scenarios, bug finding or actually looking outside the hype.

but hey,
if you want to stay in bliss and avoid stuff, then you will always be left questioning things and blaming it on an egg or a chicken. never realising the more eggs they make the more chickens they make.. chickens that are afraid of everything, and just hop around and never learn to fly.. oh and become very easy to pluck and roast

No one is trying to call FUD the constructive criticisms against Bitcoin, and the Lightning Network. If you believe that the Lightning Network currently isn't ready for the real world because of low liquidity, and routing problems/bugs, OK. But don't ignore the fact that these are resolvable problems.

[franky1]

No one is trying to call FUD the constructive criticisms against Bitcoin, and the Lightning Network. If you believe that the Lightning Network currently isn't ready for the real world because of low liquidity, and routing problems/bugs, OK. But don't ignore the fact that these are resolvable problems.

thats the promotion, the hype, the hope. .. but please! actually run some scenarios without the pompus utopian best case scenario attempts

actually work it out and see that there are some work arounds but what those work arounds also cause

EG if a route has bad liquidity they then say the work around is for people to open up more channels for other routes. but that ends up with more liquidity needing to be locked up. or dividing peoples value down to have it shared across multiple channels. again causing issues per channel

also again. there is the issue of the hops = X * hops. just to process X
where by running a scenario of the utopian promise of LN being the service everyone uses instead of everyone using the blockchain.
take that down a few notches and say just 1M of coins is locked from an exchange and every one is X hops away.
how much is needed at each hop to also be locked and how many hops is then the distance limit before all 19m coins need to be locked just to satisfy the requirement of the exchanges 1m pegged amount then able to reach customers Y hops away.

add it all up. see and find the real limitations. and the real issues. observe the bad and dont just dream of the utopia

[cAPSLOCK]

A quick tip for lightning node management, particularly for LND.

Mind your zombie channels.

if you see a node go offline for a long time, it is good to just nix that channel.  If you have a failure (like I did) then it can be troublesome to close the channel because you need the partner to initiate a FC.  I only had this with a single channel.  And I might actually MAKE MONEY because of it.  Because if he does not show up after a certain amount of time I am just going to claim the entire balance via some wizardry... It's nearly impossible to completely lose balances... but I do not want to take any of his sats.  Then again if he is gone then at least one of us should have them.  I also am 99% sure he opened the channel and all the balance was on his side...  poor fellow.

So you really only want channels with reliable nodes.

[Wind_FURY]

No one is trying to call FUD the constructive criticisms against Bitcoin, and the Lightning Network. If you believe that the Lightning Network currently isn't ready for the real world because of low liquidity, and routing problems/bugs, OK. But don't ignore the fact that these are resolvable problems.

thats the promotion, the hype, the hope. .. but please! actually run some scenarios without the pompus utopian best case scenario attempts

actually work it out and see that there are some work arounds but what those work arounds also cause

EG if a route has bad liquidity they then say the work around is for people to open up more channels for other routes. but that ends up with more liquidity needing to be locked up. or dividing peoples value down to have it shared across multiple channels. again causing issues per channel

also again. there is the issue of the hops = X * hops. just to process X
where by running a scenario of the utopian promise of LN being the service everyone uses instead of everyone using the blockchain.
take that down a few notches and say just 1M of coins is locked from an exchange and every one is X hops away.
how much is needed at each hop to also be locked and how many hops is then the distance limit before all 19m coins need to be locked just to satisfy the requirement of the exchanges 1m pegged amount then able to reach customers Y hops away.

I'm not debating your claims, ser. The point of my post is if criticisms are something like what you have said before, that "Lightning transactions are made of IOUs", then that's absolutely wrong and misleading.

add it all up. see and find the real limitations. and the real issues. observe the bad and dont just dream of the utopia

Who's denying LN's limitations? No one, franky1. We merely don't want FUD. In fact, I believe that it's a limitation that if node operators can't be incentivized by locking their capital in channels, network growth will be slow, or it might also decline.

[fillippone]

So you really only want channels with reliable nodes.

Interesting ethic debate.  Those funds are stuck on the channel. You could recover all the funds and then be ready to return those if the poor fellow will ever contact you.
Just to prevent the fact an accident on your side could make those funds lost forever.

[franky1]

I'm not debating your claims, ser. The point of my post is if criticisms are something like what you have said before, that "Lightning transactions are made of IOUs", then that's absolutely wrong and misleading.

if you have not learned anything from observing the LUNACY of the sidechain pegs of other networks that didnt not have guaranteed pegging mechanisms. thats on you

if you havnt learned that there is no network consensus or protection to avoid a bad 'rounding' error of converting a onion payment message into a commitment. thats on you.
(your not reliant on a network consensus. your reliant on the trust of the wallet update version you personally download, meaning many risks are at play)

just try to run scenarios and actually look into the whole 1sat:1000msat pegging code.
it will surprise you
(observe that LN does not transmit bitcoin transactions around LN route channels/nodes)

if you have not observed the difference between a onion payment and a commitment. thats on you.
if you have not observed the mechanism of the difference between an onion payment(msat) and commitment(sat) thats on you

malicious users can tempt eager customers to download a variant of software offering "new features"(your buddy calls it this. not me) which can allow and do allow fractional reserving, depegged/unbakced msats and other risky stuff.. because IT HAS BEEN DONE ALREADY

[cygan]

https://twitter.com/BTC_Archive/status/1546887982363320320

Foxbit is a BTCitcoin and cryptocurrency company headquartered in são paulo (brasil), it aims to revolutionize the financial market

[cygan]

finally
it continues to move in the right direction... a us central bank has just recognized the importance of the ln for BTC payments


https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4142590

[franky1]

Ha i laugh
yet there are hundreds of millions of users using central exchanges. and only 17k nodes

seems like the 'lack of congestion' is that people are using central exchanges as bank accounts more so than LN
to a tune of.. wait for it a 200,000+:17 factor (more then 200m vs 17k)

this is also backed up by the fact that the el salvador situation moved AWAY from LN in winter and is now using a central exchange as their bank account back bone of chivo customers balance (alphapoint)
but i guess people dont want to observe actual numbers and actual real life stuff playing out. they just want to find any fluff piece that sounds like it meets their utopia

[DooMAD]

there are hundreds of millions of users using central exchanges. and only 17k nodes
 (...)
but i guess people dont want to observe actual numbers and actual real life stuff playing out. they just want to find any fluff piece that sounds like it meets their utopia

We're not suggesting there will be "hundreds of millions" of LN users at any point in the near future.  If you are, then perhaps you are the utopian dreamer.  Maybe try to keep your precious scenarios at least somewhat grounded in reality.

It seems as though you decry every new service adopting LN, because you realise each one means a small, incremental rise in liquidity.  Whereas your goal is to try and scare people away one user at a time with your ludicrous hyperbole and fearmongering.  You're not going to succeed. 

[fillippone]

finally
it continues to move in the right direction... a us central bank has just recognized the importance of the ln for BTC

Very nice find.

It’s duty of the public regulator to keep an eye on the innovation in the field.
Let me quote the abstract:

The Lightning Network (LN) is a means of netting Bitcoin payments outside the blockchain. We find a significant association between LN adoption and reduced blockchain congestion, sug- gesting that the LN has helped improve the efficiency of Bitcoin as a means of payment. This improvement cannot be explained by other factors, such as changes in demand or the adoption of SegWit. We find mixed evidence on whether increased centralization in the Lightning Network has improved its efficiency. Our findings have implications for the future of cryptocurrencies as a means of payment and their environmental footprint.

[franky1]

there are hundreds of millions of users using central exchanges. and only 17k nodes
 (...)
but i guess people dont want to observe actual numbers and actual real life stuff playing out. they just want to find any fluff piece that sounds like it meets their utopia

We're not suggesting there will be "hundreds of millions" of LN users at any point in the near future.  If you are, then perhaps you are the utopian dreamer.  Maybe try to keep your precious scenarios at least somewhat grounded in reality.

It seems as though you decry every new service adopting LN, because you realise each one means a small, incremental rise in liquidity.  Whereas your goal is to try and scare people away one user at a time with your ludicrous hyperbole and fearmongering.  You're not going to succeed.  

my quote was in reference to someone pulling a puff piece suggesting that LN is the reason there is no bitcoin congestion. i clearly stated when there are only 17k LN nodes but hundreds of millions of centralised exchange accounts.. no fluff. its actual numbers anyone can find should they dare observe..
 the reality is people are using exchanges as "bank accounts" to avoid the bitcoin network. rather than using LN.

as stated there is real world evidence. not just the hundreds of millions of exchange customers. but also that even the CHIVO dropped LN, to instead prefer centralised exchanges as the back bone account management system of crypto/fiat of chivo payments

atleast my goal is not to lock people into LN and then give lame excuses for why they should never exit it. by screaming how bitcoin is bad, bloated, heavy,broke just to make your network look good
while simultaneously trying to ignore, hide, avoid, the flaws of your favoured network

have you dared to even read your own post history and tally how many times you shamed bitcoin vs how many times you shamed LN.. go on try it observe your bias

yea you hate bitcoin network i get it. but do yourself a favour. if you want to be a PR guy for LN.. try better.

[Wind_FURY]

there are hundreds of millions of users using central exchanges. and only 17k nodes
 (...)
but i guess people dont want to observe actual numbers and actual real life stuff playing out. they just want to find any fluff piece that sounds like it meets their utopia

We're not suggesting there will be "hundreds of millions" of LN users at any point in the near future.  If you are, then perhaps you are the utopian dreamer.  Maybe try to keep your precious scenarios at least somewhat grounded in reality.

It seems as though you decry every new service adopting LN, because you realise each one means a small, incremental rise in liquidity.  Whereas your goal is to try and scare people away one user at a time with your ludicrous hyperbole and fearmongering.  You're not going to succeed.  

my quote was in reference to someone pulling a puff piece suggesting that LN is the reason there is no bitcoin congestion.

Who said it? Obviously it's wrong, or to be fair to that "someone", you probably have taken it out of context like in some of our debates?

Plus it's better to educate him/her franky1. Be respectful, and don't ridicule people in the forum. Given that demand for transactions in the Bitcoin blockchain can be limited, with limited supply of block-space, the network will congest, driving fees higher. In theory it can also be the same with the Lightning Network, because of the limited supply of capital, the Bitcons, "locked" in payment channels.

[cygan]

finally
it continues to move in the right direction... a us central bank has just recognized the importance of the ln for BTC

Very nice find.

It’s duty of the public regulator to keep an eye on the innovation in the field.
✂

there is also no way around continuing to observe these great innovations and implementing them step by step in the entire ecosystem.
and i think that there will soon be more positive news about the lightnig network and its many advantages.

[cAPSLOCK]

So you really only want channels with reliable nodes.

Interesting ethic debate.  Those funds are stuck on the channel. You could recover all the funds and then be ready to return those if the poor fellow will ever contact you.
Just to prevent the fact an accident on your side could make those funds lost forever.

I did the forensics on this and I am amazed.

The zombie channel was indeed initiated by my channel partner.  And I do not believe it ever had any traffic.  So they are just kissing .05BTC goodbye.  Wow.  I assume eventually they will come to their senses and force close it.  But if it exists for X amount of time I will recover it.  I just have to decide what X is.

[Banking Freedom]

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[fillippone]

  But if it exists for X amount of time I will recover it.  I just have to decide what X is.

This amount is defined in blocks?
How long this channel has been opened?
I guess it is fair to set roughly the same amount of time the channel was open.