Lightning Network Observer

[Carlton Banks]

If I come across some information that Saylor and/or his team put out [snip] I will forward it (which you call spamming, but you seem to have a way more strict (or would it be perverted?) idea regarding what is spamming, as compared with me - at least when it comes to Saylor).

I dare you to find

1. anything he's ever done or said that is any different to any other investment firm
2. anything he ever does to that end in future

you/he won't, because his sole talent is spamming pictures of his face. everywhere.

you are helping him with this. it's because you're getting paid, isn't it?

[1714307846]

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[JayJuanGee]

If I come across some information that Saylor and/or his team put out [snip] I will forward it (which you call spamming, but you seem to have a way more strict (or would it be perverted?) idea regarding what is spamming, as compared with me - at least when it comes to Saylor).

I dare you to find

1. anything he's ever done or said that is any different to any other investment firm
2. anything he ever does to that end in future

you/he won't, because his sole talent is spamming pictures of his face. everywhere.

you are helping him with this. it's because you're getting paid, isn't it?

I already said enough to defend Saylor and/or MSTR in terms of whatever I already posted.. to the extent that I was even attempting to justify anything in regards to Saylor and/or MSTR.  I don't need to be doing any homework that you assign, and more likely you are the one who probably needs to do your own homework to back up your own seemingly bullshit talking points - that ONLY seem to be getting more ridiculous the more you talk about it.  

Just off the top of my head, I am thinking that Saylor has some great perspectives that have already been helpful to bitcoin, ever since he got into bitcoin in around August 2020. .and he was quite public about the way that he was assessing bitcoin to be good for him and good for other businesses and good for the world.. whether you buy into his various talking points or not and whether you buy into whatever things that he has done as being materially helpful to anyone or not..including some of his informational efforts and some of the free courses (which I suppose you are going to assert as being either propaganda or merely self-promotions.. blah blah blah).  

Through the last 2.5 years or since the time that I have heard about Saylor and MSTR, I have criticized him in a variety of ways in the past too..  but generally, I tend to say good things about him, even if I might have some criticisms in there from time to time too.. such as criticisms of some of his seemingly over aggressiveness in regards to how he had invested and then also some of his seemingly less ability to relate to some of the ground-level censorship resistance, non-kyc and peer to peer perspectives, and hopefully some of his (and his company's) considering to put resources into lightning network development might push him more into a more grounded direction.. and I think that I was critical in regards to some of his mining counsel involvement.. but surely not overly so because I am not all caught up into researching the various ways that I believe that Saylor is out to damage bitcoin because I have considered him as a net good for bitcoin so he has not raised any red flags for me.. or at least not as many relatively speaking as some other folks, including my concerns about shitcoins and shitcoiners.. but still you seem to be coming off as quite jaded in terms of being skeptical about what Saylor is actually doing and whether he is actually helpful to bitcoin overall, and it seems to me that bitcoin takes all types, even if we might not agree with everything that they do or how they speak or whatever..

So sure maybe Saylor is potentially dominating the talking points too much because he is and has been quite popular, and you are going to be able to call him a dweeb or to point out the various ways that he is wrong . but your mere assertion that he is a spammer, an attention-whore or someone who is disingenuous seems to be lacking in evidence, so the burden seems to be more on you rather than me to establish your assertions that from my point of view seem to go contrary to actual evidence and/or facts on the ground.. and yeah, maybe he ends up not doing anything for lightning network or establishing some proprietary system that goes contrary to bitcoin/lightning network values, to the extent that those exist... but still it seems way to early to conclude that whatever he is going to end up doing is not going to have any value or is going to have merely negative value.

Your assertion that I am paid by Saylor is quite crazy and baseless too.... and it does seem that we are deviating from the topic of this thread in terms of at least matters related to Saylor getting involved in lightning network and gosh, I hardly seem to have enough knowledge beyond what I had already said. not that I should be needing to do any further research to respond to what seems to be increasingly dumb and perhaps even increasingly irrelevant assertions that you are making in regards to my objectives that are supposedly not as neutral as your seemingly crazy-assed whining about Saylor ones.  You seem to be the one trying to act like you are normal (and smarter than everyone else) while making the crazy claims. not this here cat.  

[Carlton Banks]

so

1. you're not getting paid
2. you reserve the right to spam Spamlord's spampaign promo material forthwith

okaaaaaaaaaay

i've said helpful things for Bitcoin, so have you JJG and several thousand others on this forum


we never tried to turn ourselves into a celebrity over any of it though did we?

please try to earn an honest living instead. why do you think he wants to use fake grassroots campaigns to become a Bitcoin celebrity? probably up to no good, especially when you consider that he has no talent or anything else to offer the space at all

[cAPSLOCK]

Why such a Saylor naysayer?

because he spams his face and meaningless "interviews" in every piece of free internet column inches available, seemingly because he wants to become a bitcoin celebrity of some kind (Andreas Antonopoulos was the same kind of character, but even he wasn't as shamelessly obvious as Spamlord here)


so you'll all stop spamming Michael Spamlord's spam, because you aren't spammers, right?

Nope.  And screw you.

Not because I like or dislike Saylor.. but because I dislike someone trying to tell me what to think.

Him...

Or you.

He advocates for Bitcoin... Whatever... maybe it's not perfect.  Here, you, on the other hand, are advocating against Saylor.

Whatever.

[franky1]

prime examples of social drama above

if influencer/ambassador/advocate just mentions "brand" but is not personally involved in a projects development..
.. they are just social drama(#FameForName)

it doesnt matter if they have 130k coin or 575k coin or 630k coin.
their underlying involvement means more. and what they are practising off camera means more than what they preach on camera(everyone loved o'leary.. until FTX got goxxed)

if you wish to waste time observing a influencer/advocate. and ignore the code, rules, protocol, security of a monetary system.. your observing the wrong things

if you only admire an advocate because they mention a flawed system you admire.  you really are pointing your eyes and fluttering your eyelashes at your crush. in the wrong direction(everyone loved o'leary.. until FTX got goxxed)

[nutildah]

if you wish to waste time observing a influencer/advocate. and ignore the code, rules, protocol, security of a monetary system.. your observing the wrong things

if you only admire an advocate because they mention a flawed system you admire.  you really are pointing your eyes and fluttering your eyelashes at your crush. in the wrong direction(everyone loved o'leary.. until FTX got goxxed)

This is one of the few times I actually find myself agreeing with Franky... I disagree with him on just about everything related to the subject of this thread, but whats the point of rehashing it.


Prediction for the record:

Its not going to end well for Saylor.

In addition to Microstrategy operating at a net loss for the last 3 years, there's already some hearty warning signs that things are going in an even worse direction for him.

Saylor simping is an exercise in futility, but the Saylor simps won't believe it until the end actually happens. And when it does happen it will have nothing to do with Bitcoin.

https://fortune.com/2022/09/07/tax-fraud-suit-michael-saylor-microstrategy-whistleblower-details/

On August 31, the District of Columbia famously filed a civil suit accusing Michael Saylor, Bitcoin’s chief proselytizer, of cheating the District out of $25 million in taxes. So far, the revelations in the action haven’t dented the flagship cryptocurrency’s price. (ed: duh) But they present a fascinating picture of how the flamboyant promoter so revered and influential in cryptocurrency circles allegedly behaved as a conman so delighted with his scams that he couldn’t resist bragging about them, the weakness that appears to have proved his undoing.
...
Soon, the revelation may take hold that the prophet who once looked like a seer in promoting Bitcoin is really the same carnival barker who allegedly cheated on his taxes while reckoning he was too invincible to get caught, then fell off the stage by boasting about it to a whistleblower. The markets could soon blow the whistle on MicroStrategy as well.

Price of MSTR is down ~25% as of the writing of this article, price of BTC is down ~17.5%.

OK back to Lightning talk; apologies for the OT.

[franky1]

@nutildah

when you open your eyes and observe:
market cap
network liquidity
company valuation.

are 3 terms of meaningless statistic of just numbers that are not actually used/backed. it will awaken you

bitcoins market cap is not an amount of fiat held somewhere as reserve
LN's liquidity/capacity is not how much all users combined can actually transact without bottlenecks
company valuation is not an amount of reserve/collateral or cashflow a company actually has

lets use the o'leary sharktank demo of company valuation

a guy walks into the sharktank. has $10k in his back pocket but asks the sharks for $50k for 5% of company
sharks give him $50k. now he has $60k real cash flow.. but company now instantly valued at $1m

advice: never think "market cap" means anything
advice: never think LN can handle true bitcoin volume transactions per day
advice: never trade fiat companies based on company valuations.

@nutildah response below
i dont look for ass kissers
if you agree with content A, but then start talking about content B
where content B shows you are unaware that company valuations are also fake but you want to state that it shows something meaningful.. then content B needs correcting

there is no get out of jail free card by being an ass kisser

if people stick to facts, observe, do research. and actually show they learn. then i dont kiss their ass, i just see nothing to comment to correct them about.

those that only want ass kissing responses, are not leading a good discussion

in short, if someone says factual stuff. they simply need no response/discussion/debate/alternative opinion..  because the details speak for themselves.

advice:
if you kiss ass and then say something silly. the kiss ass WONT absolve the silly

case in point
saylors bitcoin holdings are separate from his business dealings

his business does separate non bitcoin projects and is run and funded by fiat.
saylors fiat business is separate from his bitcoin interests

compare that to influencers like DCG who are highly bitcoin involved financially and project led.. yet no one in this group wants to talk about them.. funny that

[nutildah]

Thanks franky I'm super awake now. All this time before having read your post I never realized I was merely an amoeba drifting aimlessly in a sea of confusion. But now it is all so clear for you have guided me back on the righteous path.

Even when you agree with franky, he still finds something to disagree about, its remarkable!

Have a fantastic day.

[Carlton Banks]

He advocates for Bitcoin... Whatever... maybe it's not perfect.  Here, you, on the other hand, are advocating against Saylor.

I've been known to advocate for Bitcoin before, or at least I was trying to.

for 10 years.


Spamlord pitched up about 2 years ago, and he's been shouting very loud and very often, really as if he's trying to take control of the conversation.

if I'm wrong about that, explain. if not, everyone advocating for him looks pretty weird at best, and shilling paid mini spamlords at worst. .

[cAPSLOCK]

He advocates for Bitcoin... Whatever... maybe it's not perfect.  Here, you, on the other hand, are advocating against Saylor.

I've been known to advocate for Bitcoin before, or at least I was trying to.

for 10 years.


Spamlord pitched up about 2 years ago, and he's been shouting very loud and very often, really as if he's trying to take control of the conversation.

if I'm wrong about that, explain. if not, everyone advocating for him looks pretty weird at best, and shilling paid mini spamlords at worst. .

Yes.  I know you have been here a long time.  So have I.

And sorry I attacked... it's been a shitty week/month/three years.

I just read the "paid troll" argument several posts back (and you are using it here too!) and it's just so tiresome.  I am all about adversarial thinking, but calling anyone you disagree with a paid troll is a shitty argument.

i agree with you Saylor is all about promoting Saylor.  But he has also bought gimongus amounts of BTC.  And has an incredible incentive to prote BTC and himself...

If you don't like him, you don't like him... I get it.  But seriously JJG a paid Saylor shill?  Me?  Bah.

Also, he does a really good job communicating what Bitcoin is.  Particularly to the sorts of folks who don't understand it and want to kill it.  Nobody is a perfect advocate for Bitcoin... not him, not Greg Maxwell for that matter.  But Saylor is not that bad IMO.

[Carlton Banks]

And sorry I attacked... it's been a shitty week/month/three years.

don't sweat it, I also remember you and know you're ok

I just read the "paid troll" argument several posts back (and you are using it here too!) and it's just so tiresome.  I am all about adversarial thinking, but calling anyone you disagree with a paid troll is a shitty argument.

i agree with you Saylor is all about promoting Saylor.  But he has also bought gimongus amounts of BTC.  And has an incredible incentive to prote BTC and himself...

well, ok. it's only a theory, i didn't get super secret hacked emails from Wikileaks or anything

but everyone seems incredibly sensitive on this, why not just quit helping to spam Spamlord's stuff? any useful information is something he lifted from somewhere else anyway (except anything internal to the "mining cartel council")

[cygan]

Though the Western-centric crypto news cycle these past few months has been dominated by halted withdrawals, bankruptcy, and fraud, the global Lightning community continues to grow with a relentless focus on solving real problems for real people. In BTC terms, public network capacity increased 50% in 2022, and a staggering 373% since January 2021.

https://lightninglabs.substack.com/p/signal-over-noise-how-emerging-markets

[fillippone]

Nice read.
I found another graph in that newsletter that caught my attention:



This is the kind of exponential metric that tells you bitcoin is not holder's dream: bitcoin is used because solves everyday problems.
And people are realising bitcoin can benefit themselves in a mostly unexpected way. Otherwise it would be difficult explain the broad usage of a LN wallet.
 

[franky1]

when you lot realise that LN is not bitcoin specific..

and is just another bridge subnetwork for multiple mainnets.. it will hit you hard
especially when other bridge subnetworks have more liquidity (avalance has 5700btc pegged, only 1 year old)

you will start to see more flaws in LN
do you guys even know why people are preferring to lock bitcoin up and using the UTXO as a peg to open tokens balance for payments on eth-20 to a tune of
5700 on avalance
173,000 on wbtc

where LN only has 5200
maybe if you observe the flaws, bugs and lack of monetary policy of LN to secure said pegged value in LN. you see why LN is falling on the sidelines while other subnetwork bridges are outpacing LN

oh and their tx per year stats.. their "time to 1mill tx" stats.. you might want to check their stats.. and then you will feel that empty feeling that LN is not living upto promises/expectations

heres another funny reminder
more people have moved btc value into taproot in just over a dozen months compared to to LN locked value
yep taproot based systems have about 23k and climbing

seem more people prefer taproot or erc-20 based collectives more then the LN collective

it pays to observe stats in their full context from source and in comparison to other systems promising similar features.. and not just be picky about something you seen on social media

and before you all cry that LN "is bitcoin"
try to read about the "cross platform" cross blockchain swaps
and i mean the original. not the updated one to brand phish bitcoin centric word play for hype

observe LN not through the narrow utopian eyelids of bestcase hope and dream. but in the factual state of LN 7 years in.. in comparison to all other bridge subnetworks similar offerings and ability.

[nutildah]

And solar power will never be viable because it is not viable now.

Electric cars will never be viable because they are not viable now.

We should just give up trying to make any kind of technological improvements because they are not viable right now.

[franky1]

And solar power will never be viable because it is not viable now.

Electric cars will never be viable because they are not viable now.

We should just give up trying to make any kind of technological improvements because they are not viable right now.

7 years............. yawn
   still flawed YAWN
imagine if bitcoin network was released in 2009. and in 2016 only had maybe 16,000 users playing around with only 5200 coins between them. where it was bottle necking
for even amounts of say $30 and above

would you say bitcoin was a success.. or a failure to launch
other development teams have seen the flaws of LN, seen which flaws wont and cant ever be patched. and instead started on their own bridge subnetworks. and those networks which are less than 2 years old have more liquidity in them

so if 7 years is not the date to call it a day. when will you call it a day

LN is not the solution, devs need to start a fresh subnetwork that actually functions and does what the wider community want and need. or just let bitcoin scale instead of this endless stalling tactic of "be patient"

i dont use ethereum(never have) or their co-branded, subset protocols of their subnetwork bridges(that also bridge to bitcoin)
and yet they are gaining alot more traction than LN

im a bitcoin maximalist. but friggen hell i do do my research with eyes wide open and not in dreams and hopes.

and im not happy with the silly games being played in bitcoin dev politics/corporate sponsorships of bitcoin devs pushing things that are not helping bitcoin grow but just stalling progress with YEARS of empty promises of solutions that are never met


ok heres a rationalisation (eye opening opportunity) challenge for you folk
can you lot even remember, lets say the top 3 "solutions for bitcoin" Ln was promoting back in the 2015-17 days

if so reply with them and your opinions of if they have been met or not

[nutildah]

would you say bitcoin was a success.. or a failure to launch

A lot of people believe Bitcoin has always been a failure and still is. They're just not on this forum.

im a bitcoin maximalist. but friggen hell i do do my research with eyes wide open and not in dreams and hopes.

I dunno about that. Your "research" seems to consist of you repeating your same tired opinions ad nauseum while telling everyone to "do research." We all know exactly how you feel on the issue and that your views are unwavering. Your whole personality is based around a steadfast resolve to learn nothing, never concede on any point and never incorporate new knowledge into your world view.

Trust me, people get it: franky1 doesn't approve of LN. You needn't remind us any further.

[franky1]

you lot BS alot of fiction using social drama..

i however use statistics. data, code..
it is not me that needs to concede.. code and data speaks for itself
funny how the LN crowd prefer social media taunts

its you that needs to look outside your fluffy promotion material of empty promise. and actually learn something

have you tried yet? nope. and so the rhetoric of your Ln flock/folks false claims continue because all you lot can do is snake oil sale unmet hope and dreams. thus i need to keep poking you lot with reminders. reminders of things that can be backed up by stats, data, until you are ready to observe

i do laugh that you think im the only one

even though statistics show that people would rather lock btc value up and then use other bridge subnetworks. rather then LN

but you will ignore those stats

also i talk on this forum about a heck of alot of different topics
you only notice the LN ones because they hurt you soo much so they stick in your head like PTSD

maybe try to be prepared to learn rather then defend the silly network that had 7 years to prove it can meet its promises, but failed

so come on can you even remember what LN promises were. and if they were achieved.. come on. atleast try to have a good LN specific data debate to reply with and not a social drama name call

..
edit to reply to below
well everything you lot say about LN has been said before so your own advice is you dont need to keep snake oil selling it in multiple topics

funny part is i reveal more issues and you lot cant even debate them and only want to silence me. which is not even a method of discussion

oh and did i ever mention the stats of other bridging subnetworks offering similar features before this week. nope. but your folks lack of observations and preference of ignorance has been plentiful. you dont even want to be aware of certain things, which is not even good policy for your own risk awareness of flaws, let alone to realise what your are advertising to others, nor how shameful your dreamy and hope adverts have become

so again the challenge. can you lot even remember LN's promises. and can you factually prove those promises have been met aft 7 years of you lot waiting

[nutildah]

Here's the thing: what you're saying isn't worthy of debate.

Its just you expressing the same opinion for the thousandth time. There's nothing to debate as its all been said before and nothing has changed or will change. You're free to continue on with your mindset; obviously nobody can stop or alter that.

Have a great day.

[aysg76]

This is the kind of exponential metric that tells you bitcoin is not holder's dream: bitcoin is used because solves everyday problems.
And people are realising bitcoin can benefit themselves in a mostly unexpected way. Otherwise it would be difficult explain the broad usage of a LN wallet.

The growing demand and awareness among people about bitcoin has led to growth of LN channels with people spending small amounts to buy stuff and make transactions with it.As the term bitcoin is becoming more popular and all want to have some profits from it with experience of financial freedom we are seeing such growth.

The chart depicts how the time period is getting short to gain next million which corresponds to the statement that " making first million is the hardest one" so we will see more growth in LN also in coming time.

As we have already seen the network capacity being increased with lot of bitcoins and more nodes support but as per charts the Layer 2 solution is being in good use as you can open a channel easily and avoid the fees each time but this is usually where it's accepted by small merchants as well.

BREAKING‼️ Strike has partnered with retail payments giant Clover to integrate the #Bitcoin     Lightning Network!

Clover has 6 million merchants globally!

Tweet

So we see how it's growing fast and in coming days we will see more charts indicating the growth of LN and users for the same.