Lightning Network Observer

[JayJuanGee]

Oh well.  It's been fun.  And I will likely still hang around here.  Who knows?  Maybe I will spin up another node eventually.

Please do.

Your almost-horror story was quite fun to read, but I can only imagine how the drama unfolded.

In the end, you did the right thing.
And you learnt something new.
I hope we won't lose your enthusiasm for firing other nodes!

Oh.  It might happen sooner than I had thought!  I cannot stand trying to get Breeze running half as well as Zeus + either of my RPi nodes.

I am just stuck with a set of decision.

1.  CL or LND? This is hard.  I DO NOT want to run two.  I was running both when the HDD failed last time.  And there is no need to run more than one node as a hobbyist.  Too much to manage.  And running one will allow me to drop a reasonable amount of sats in the node and maybe enjoy seeing routing more often again.  And if routing is what I want to prioritize it seems LND would be the choice.  It routes better in my experience.  

2.  Stick with the RPi setup or graduate to something more stout?  There are a lot of good arguments for the latter.  Raid being the simple easiest one to see.  Particularly with LND since it's channel backup stuff is not (or at least WAS not) quite as well done as CL's.  The hard drive failure we simple to recover from in CL, but tricky with LND.  But the Pi takes just a few watts more than a nightlight (possibly even less really) and that is attractive.  And it is plenty of CPU.  And I COULD always just hook a little raid enclosure up to it for that purpose... hmm.

3.  Stick with Raspiblitz, or?  First of all I will not "roll my own".  I CAN for sure. I am highly Linux fluent, and would have no problem compiling and deploying the software.  I have done this in the past.  But maintainence is a bear.  And the LND/CL distros (Raspiblitz, Raspibolt, Umbrel, MyNode, others) I really like the ethos and style of Raspiblitz.  I am more a ssh/bash type of person that a Web Interface type.  But Umbrel does offer a lot of cool plugins... hrm.

And finally I have to come up with some other silly name.  Deej was a beast, but is gone.  Jeed never really flourished.  What is next?

Call me a pussy if you must, but what is wrong with striving to have some plug and play reliability, even if it might be a side unit that is just always running (or mostly running and like you said maybe ONLY just running only one node that is used from time to time to verify personal transactions rather than trying to provide any kinds of services to others or to learn about various aspects of the whole lightning network?).. and in that regard, what's wrong with running an old laptop, or even spending a bit on some system such as Embassy in order to attempt to achieve more user-friendliness and power..   I don't claim to know much, but I heard that the various raspiblitz and some of those cheap set ups are likely way under powered and causing some of their issues based on being underpowered... and sure maybe if you pick some systems that are somewhat already intended as user-friendly and paying more, then you might be giving up a bit in regards to how much to be able to customize them, too.. but who needs to have problems with equipment failures that end up taking a lot of time and frustration?  

Don't get me wrong, I am a bit of a tinkerer myself, so I do actually enjoy some of those moments in which I am able to successfully set something up or figure something out, even if it may have taken me a few days and an expert would have gotten it done in less than an hour..  and so I can understand and appreciate some of the value in terms of both troubleshooting and then actually accomplishing the tasks, too.. ..

I don't claim to know shit in regards to the actual topic of interfacing with technical aspects of the nodes, and some of your various descriptions of trade-offs, and I ONLY recently started running bitcoin core 24.01 on a couple of macs.. but I hardly know what the fuck is actually happening beyond having 600 gigabytes or something like that, less space available on the harddrives.. .hahahahaha, even though at the same time, I am thinking that I am moving in the right direction to maybe later be able to verify my transactions through such nodes and thereafter considering that running some kind of a regular node then facilitates the ability for me to possibly expand into having a lightning node on each of the computers too.. ..and yeah, many of us Mac users don't really know much about terminal windows.. and we may well even get scared if we see a terminal window and have to type some kind of a command.. so many of us may well rely somewhat on plug and play expectations and/or other ways in which the hopefully user-friendly GUI software is screened and reviewed by others, and since you already know some of the various ways to play around with the software (through terminal interface), then you have some of the luxuries of both worlds, no?

Isn't this supposed to be a user-friendly thread?  #askingforafriend

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[cAPSLOCK]

Oh well.  It's been fun.  And I will likely still hang around here.  Who knows?  Maybe I will spin up another node eventually.

Please do.

Your almost-horror story was quite fun to read, but I can only imagine how the drama unfolded.

In the end, you did the right thing.
And you learnt something new.
I hope we won't lose your enthusiasm for firing other nodes!

Oh.  It might happen sooner than I had thought!  I cannot stand trying to get Breeze running half as well as Zeus + either of my RPi nodes.

I am just stuck with a set of decision.

1.  CL or LND? This is hard.  I DO NOT want to run two.  I was running both when the HDD failed last time.  And there is no need to run more than one node as a hobbyist.  Too much to manage.  And running one will allow me to drop a reasonable amount of sats in the node and maybe enjoy seeing routing more often again.  And if routing is what I want to prioritize it seems LND would be the choice.  It routes better in my experience.  

2.  Stick with the RPi setup or graduate to something more stout?  There are a lot of good arguments for the latter.  Raid being the simple easiest one to see.  Particularly with LND since it's channel backup stuff is not (or at least WAS not) quite as well done as CL's.  The hard drive failure we simple to recover from in CL, but tricky with LND.  But the Pi takes just a few watts more than a nightlight (possibly even less really) and that is attractive.  And it is plenty of CPU.  And I COULD always just hook a little raid enclosure up to it for that purpose... hmm.

3.  Stick with Raspiblitz, or?  First of all I will not "roll my own".  I CAN for sure. I am highly Linux fluent, and would have no problem compiling and deploying the software.  I have done this in the past.  But maintainence is a bear.  And the LND/CL distros (Raspiblitz, Raspibolt, Umbrel, MyNode, others) I really like the ethos and style of Raspiblitz.  I am more a ssh/bash type of person that a Web Interface type.  But Umbrel does offer a lot of cool plugins... hrm.

And finally I have to come up with some other silly name.  Deej was a beast, but is gone.  Jeed never really flourished.  What is next?

Call me a pussy if you must, but what is wrong with striving to have some plug and play reliability, even if it might be a side unit that is just always running (or mostly running and like you said maybe ONLY just running only one node that is used from time to time to verify personal transactions rather than trying to provide any kinds of services to others or to learn about various aspects of the whole lightning network?).. and in that regard, what's wrong with running an old laptop, or even spending a bit on some system such as Embassy in order to attempt to achieve more user-friendliness and power..   I don't claim to know much, but I heard that the various raspiblitz and some of those cheap set ups are likely way under powered and causing some of their issues based on being underpowered... and sure maybe if you pick some systems that are somewhat already intended as user-friendly and paying more, then you might be giving up a bit in regards to how much to be able to customize them, too.. but who needs to have problems with equipment failures that end up taking a lot of time and frustration?  

Don't get me wrong, I am a bit of a tinkerer myself, so I do actually enjoy some of those moments in which I am able to successfully set something up or figure something out, even if it may have taken me a few days and an expert would have gotten it done in less than an hour..  and so I can understand and appreciate some of the value in terms of both troubleshooting and then actually accomplishing the tasks, too.. ..

I don't claim to know shit in regards to the actual topic of interfacing with technical aspects of the nodes, and some of your various descriptions of trade-offs, and I ONLY recently started running bitcoin core 24.01 on a couple of macs.. but I hardly know what the fuck is actually happening beyond having 600 gigabytes or something like that, less space available on the harddrives.. .hahahahaha, even though at the same time, I am thinking that I am moving in the right direction to maybe later be able to verify my transactions through such nodes and thereafter considering that running some kind of a regular node then facilitates the ability for me to possibly expand into having a lightning node on each of the computers too.. ..and yeah, many of us Mac users don't really know much about terminal windows.. and we may well even get scared if we see a terminal window and have to type some kind of a command.. so many of us may well rely somewhat on plug and play expectations and/or other ways in which the hopefully user-friendly GUI software is screened and reviewed by others, and since you already know some of the various ways to play around with the software (through terminal interface), then you have some of the luxuries of both worlds, no?

Isn't this supposed to be a user-friendly thread?  #askingforafriend

I think those are great questions.  And I know, for example, that the Raspbiblitz devs are talking about releasing an i386/x64 version of the distro.  That would be cool to be able to take your little Pi and upgrade it to something a little more stout.

I really think they whole reason people want to use Pis is to:

1.  Demonstrate that Bitcoin can be run on low end hardware.
2.  Run a node that uses low resources including power.
3.  And that has a small physical footprint.

I think a time may come when these things will seem silly.  But at the same time I love rPis, and have several of them doing various jobs in my home.

At the same time... the limitations on the home node really revolve more around TOR bottlenecks than anything else.

You bring up a good point about the PI setups being apt to be under-powered.  THIS issue stems from people dangling too many things off the USB ports, or running the setup with a weak PSU.  And the setup might LOOK like it is working until the HDD starts choking and failing because of not enough power. Or the board shuts down for the same reason.  And this issue can easily be avoided... run the unit off a high quality USB C power source, or use self powered drives.  I have not had this problem for years with any of my Pis.

[fillippone]

Interrupting this interesting conversation to highlight the Lighting conference hosted by Microstrategy:

Bitcoin & Lightning for Corporations
As part of MicroStrategy World 2023

May 1-4, 2023 | Orlando, Florida


https://www.microstrategy.com/en/world-2023/bitcoin-for-corporations

[Mate2237]

Interrupting this interesting conversation to highlight the Lighting conference hosted by Microstrategy:

Bitcoin & Lightning for Corporations
As part of MicroStrategy World 2023

May 1-4, 2023 | Orlando, Florida


https://www.microstrategy.com/en/world-2023/bitcoin-for-corporations

This is very good information. I wish I am there to attend the conference. The registration is ongoing, and anyone who want to attend and you close to the venue is to do the registration now.

The major issues to discuss in the conference which I noticed from the OP information (the link) are the Adoption of Bitcoin and the Lighting Netwok corporation.
From the article I also came to notice that Microstrategy were the pioneer company to hold bitcoin as a company. I believe Elizabeth Stark the CEO and Founder of Lightning Labs will do justice in the conference.

[tbct_mt2]

From the article I also came to notice that Microstrategy were the pioneer company to hold bitcoin as a company.

You are in this forum long enough and in Bitcoin community long enough to know Micro Strategy is a biggest institutional investor so far. Details about their investment into Bitcoin. They got big capital investment from many big names and they use those raised capital to buy bitcoin.

Micro Strategy statistics

More institutional investors: https://buybitcoinworldwide.com/treasuries/

[Kryptowerk]

From the article I also came to notice that Microstrategy were the pioneer company to hold bitcoin as a company.

[...]
Micro Strategy statistics
[...]

Pretty cool gstats, quite interesting.
I wonder if this could be considered a nice indicator as to when the market is above-average low - making for a good entry point. Ofc I wouldn't rely on it but when in doubt it's a nice extra to look at I guess.
A graphic to overlap their purchases with the corresponding market situation could be interesting to see if in retro they found good entry points. Just looking at their recent history of purchase it does look okay-ish to me.

[JayJuanGee]

From the article I also came to notice that Microstrategy were the pioneer company to hold bitcoin as a company.

[...]
Micro Strategy statistics
[...]

Pretty cool gstats, quite interesting.
I wonder if this could be considered a nice indicator as to when the market is above-average low - making for a good entry point. Ofc I wouldn't rely on it but when in doubt it's a nice extra to look at I guess.
A graphic to overlap their purchases with the corresponding market situation could be interesting to see if in retro they found good entry points. Just looking at their recent history of purchase it does look okay-ish to me.

There is already a forum thread on the topic of Microstrategies bitcoin accumulation, including a yesterday post from Ratimov in which he specifically attempted to address the point that Microstrategies buys have been all over the place in the last nearly three years and also linking to a thread in which Ratimov outlines his own theory that it is not good to invest into bitcoin merely based on the behaviors of institutional investors..... and sure, I don't completely agree with Ratimov, even though I appreciate that he makes a lot of good points and outlines the data pretty well.. and hey, you do what you like in terms of timing your own investment into bitcoin strategies.   

I tend to think that it takes a whole fucking lot of time to build an investment portfolio, and there are needs to be careful in regards to trying to take short cuts, but surely making assessments of your own finances is good and then figuring out ways to combine regular DCA and buying on dips is also good... and surely once you have accumulated for 4-10 years or more, there are going to likely be points along the way that you are going to be able to reassess your options.. and likely you would have more options as long as you have been erroring in on the side of ongoing accumulation of BTC and perhaps even somewhat aggressively so long as you had not gone overboard and getting reckt along the way by being too greedy and trying to get rich too quick..

[fillippone]

Lightning network capacity is going down.



This is the biggest drop ever.

I personally have no clues about the reason of this.
Anedoctically, this could be related to a new version 16.0 by LND, that had some problems and sent a few nodes down. Not sure about the reliability of this correlation though.

[d5000]

On BitcoinVisuals there is no significant reduction of capacity over the last days. Since February, values are pretty stable about ~5400-5500 BTC. Idem at 1ml where currently a capacity of 5425 BTC is displayed. Very similar numbers are appearing on Lookintobitcoin, and Amboss.space even displays 5500+ BTC.

It's possible it's something similar than what I noticed last December regarding to the number of channels - simply a flaw in the "tracking software", not in the network itself.

PS: Thomas Jestopher from Amboss has answered the tweet. The error almost for sure is on Glassnode's side.

[cygan]

BitByte has taken a close look at the 5 most popular Bitcoin nodes on which an own ln-node can be operated and has summarized the results under the following link
the following five products: RaspiBlitz, Start9, Nodl, myNode as well as the two DIY products umbrel/runcitadel were reviewed based on various factors

https://www.bitbyte.news/node-runner-top-5-lightning-network-node-machines/

[JayJuanGee]

BitByte has taken a close look at the 5 most popular Bitcoin nodes on which an own ln-node can be operated and has summarized the results under the following link
the following five products: RaspiBlitz, Start9, Nodl, myNode as well as the two DIY products umbrel/runcitadel were reviewed based on various factors

https://www.bitbyte.news/node-runner-top-5-lightning-network-node-machines/

Personally, I continue to want to look at information regarding developments (ease of use) to be able to run lighting node software on my own computer(s)... I am thinking that my computers are more powerful..and then I can potentially use them for other things, too.... even though I am not completely opposed to the idea of having a dedicated device that I could just run.. but if I am not at one location, and I don't want to travel with such a device, then someone has to restart it from time to time or whatever maintenance that it needs (as compared with my having my couple of computers with me while I am traveling)... but hey.. I might not be completely opposed to carrying an extra device with me while traveling, and surely some of the software (even EmbassyOS) seems to allow installing on a personal computer.. but it is not clear to me how easy it would be to set up on a mac..

Yes, I am whimpy in terms of my ongoing desire for attempts at both some kind of variation of plug and play and also a GUI interface, so far, I have been mostly using MacOs.. and IOS devices..

Maybe I am not doing a whole hell of a lot about some information that might be available.. but I am looking for easy-peasy..., while I still would not mind being able to review the kind of information that I feel that I might be able to somewhat easily run on my computer...so I can review before committing to it... and maybe somehow synchronize some kind of lightning node software that I would run on my Mac with the BitcoinCore 24.0.1 software that I am currently running.. on two different Macs.

[fillippone]

The network fees drama has been resonating in the Lightning Network.
All the network metrics are on the rise:

	Node operators have been opening channels like crazy recently	Lightning network has the chance to be tested as a scaling solution

When there is an incentive, we can resort to lightning network.
We had a record net opening of channels, and record of Lightning nodes.


Also,many exchanges are embracing Lightning network, finally after years of inactivity.

	Finally Binance…	Coinbase too

They realize that not opening a lightning integration would damage their business revenues.
The cost of not having a reliable Lightning Network connection is on the rise.

Kudos to @Plutosky for inspiring this post   .

[Wind_FURY]

Personally, I believe NFTs and BRC-20 should be those pushed out of the blockchain, but Binance's decision of enabling Lightning transactions is also a positive, and the only alternative for those users who don't like HODLing shitcoins.

When there is an incentive, we can resort to lightning network.
We had a record net opening of channels, and record of Lightning nodes.

Incentivization is what keeps everything in the network stick together. If truly Ordinals is an "attack", or if it's currently used as an "attack", then Bitcoin miners and Lightning node operators who collect routing fees are being incentivized by this "attack". Someone will lose money first before the Bitcoin network fails, IF it fails. Everything is working as it should be.

[cygan]

Core Lightning⚡v23.05: "Austin Texas Agreement (ATXA)" is now live! Check out the new release, which introduces:

→ PSBTv2 support
→ New RPC and GRPC commands
→ Default blinded paths
→ New options for fee rates

https://blog.blockstream.com/core-lightning-v23-05-austin-texas-agreement-atxa/

[cygan]

Voltage, a provider of lightning as a service (LaaS), is partnering with Google cloud to expand Bitcoin and lightning node hosting capabilities globally. the collaboration aims to optimize money transfers, global customer reach and microtransactions, thereby reducing costs.

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/voltage-partners-with-google-cloud-to-expand-lightning-solutions

[cygan]

it has now been leaked and also confirmed by the tweet below that the Binance exchange is now working on the implementation of ln. according to this, deposits and withdrawals will then be offered via the lightning network and thus be processed faster

https://twitter.com/binance/status/1671042638592589826
https://u.today/bitcoin-lightning-network-coming-to-binance-heres-proof

[franky1]

it has now been leaked and also confirmed by the tweet below that the Binance exchange is now working on the implementation of ln. according to this, deposits and withdrawals will then be offered via the lightning network and thus be processed faster

https://twitter.com/binance/status/1671042638592589826
https://u.today/bitcoin-lightning-network-coming-to-binance-heres-proof

goodluck.. when they realise they have balance in binances channels of mansion amounts. but LN routing paths only succeed with pizza amounts

if only people could try for once to observe the limitations of LN to notice that you cant just move $2k+ around LN freely.
oh well we wil just see another liquidity bottleneck event confusing people and businesses much like the chivo LN incident a couple years ago.. when will people learn

locking a hot wallet into a channel.. pfft. but moving largish amounts out of that channel through other channels will be the head banger against a rock. when they realise the channels along the route cant facilitate that amount of liquidity

yea its a free promo/advert hype campaign to try to win new customers using binance instead of exchanges that dont offer the feature. but when people start to use it and realise the headaches and broken promises of it. they will learn fast

when you have a single carriage passenger train that has a capacity limit using rail lines that are broke in places.. and suddenly you want to say a superfast haulage train is to use the same broken tracks. you can see a disaster coming a mile away

[DooMAD]

*distracting but largely incomprehensible noises*

Planning ahead can potentially negate liquidity issues.  Just because Chivo was poorly planned and executed, that doesn't mean every new adoption will be. 

But feel free to keep highlighting that one incident for the rest of forever because you don't have any other arguments.  It doesn't look desperate at all.  Honest.   


What do we reckon the odds are that fruitloop1 will still be trying to singlehandedly take down LN in 10 years?  He's clearly stubborn and belligerent enough.  I can see that ongoing disaster from a mile off.    

[franky1]

firstly el salvador was not the only incident. its the only one you want to admit to
there were other projects toolike trying to get nigeria to be LN friendly but they have not fallen for the false promotions
also funny how coinbase a sister company to blockstream/BS cartel are staying as far away from lightning as possible.

heck you just have to look at what the regulators are saying about routers and AEC's to know what their suggestions about LN is

it wont be me single-handedly taking LN down. it will fall all by itself.

right now other subnetworks that have bridges to bitcoin have more value locked to it in just 2 years of operation compared to LN's 5 years. so its already falling short.
LN 5.4k  avalanche 6.3k as just one example. there are so many other subnetworks people are prefering. which just goes to show LN has lost. and no the other networks are not held up by 2k of locks by certain businesses sybil loading channels but not using channels just to fake a lock balance total, thats a game LN is playing though


yep many people that are peed off with bitcoins shinanigans(meme bloat and fee mania) are by-passing the LN preaches of salvation/the promised land.. and instead lock their value to use other subnetworks and play around with other units of measure on. thats how bad LN's promotions have gone.

but you seem too blind to see the flaws. that you have stopped even caring to want flaws fixed. as long as people buy into your god worship shit, you are happy.
your games dont need me to pull your stupidity apart. you do all that by yourself with your over ambitious promises that never come to fruition. your worship that doesnt change things. and your idolation that doesnt reap in rewards for you.

but i do laugh how you pretend to play fortnightly games of pretending to adore one thing then hate it then adore it again depending on your recruitment success/failure rate

goodluck with that. but so far for the last 7 years of your games you are still penny pinching small income so even you have to admit your games are not covering your living costs.. so sooner or later even you will have to get a real job

[n0nce]

it has now been leaked and also confirmed by the tweet below that the Binance exchange is now working on the implementation of ln. according to this, deposits and withdrawals will then be offered via the lightning network and thus be processed faster

https://twitter.com/binance/status/1671042638592589826
https://u.today/bitcoin-lightning-network-coming-to-binance-heres-proof

goodluck.. when they realise they have balance in binances channels of mansion amounts. but LN routing paths only succeed with pizza amounts

if only people could try for once to observe the limitations of LN to notice that you cant just move $2k+ around LN freely.

This statement is highly biased by the assumption that people only ever deposit or withdraw $2k+ to / from a centralized exchange.
Last I checked, a big portion of Bitcoin buyers actually like dollar-cost averaging, with the one big issue that they cannot economically viably withdraw their $10 daily buy if they have to pay $5 of on-chain and exchange fees every time. Therefore, they are stuck with having to accumulate BTC in the exchange wallet and withdrawing once a month or so.
Lightning deposits and withdrawals allow them to instantly retrieve their funds and get custody of them as quickly as possible.

locking a hot wallet into a channel.. pfft. but moving largish amounts out of that channel through other channels will be the head banger against a rock. when they realise the channels along the route cant facilitate that amount of liquidity

If I want to quickly move thousands of $ of Lightning balance on-chain, I just close channels. Only one on-chain transaction per channel, and I'll have my funds on-chain in the next block. You're overblowing apparent 'issues' exponentially again, Franky.
Lightning is not perfect and is certainly not suited for every application, but there is no need to freak out over non-issues for the tenth time.

*distracting but largely incomprehensible noises*

Planning ahead can potentially negate liquidity issues.  Just because Chivo was poorly planned and executed, that doesn't mean every new adoption will be. 

From what I can tell as an 'outsider', Kraken's Lightning integration did not have any substantial issues back in 2022. Bitfinex did it successfully, too.