Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[paxmao]

Worry not, there facts are documented to exhaustion as today is easy to get a satellite image and literally anyone older than 10 years has a phone with recording capabilities. If you are right, it will be known... sadly, it simply appears that the frustrated army forces in the area just went psycho on the poor defenceless civilians and that is certainly not a war, but plain assassination.

You see, Stalin was able to hide massacres from Russian people even after he died, Putin does not enjoy such a luxury.

It is interesting that you side with one side, and disregard what other side says, yet accuse everyone here.
I have no problem to admit that I don't know, as I saw all the evidence from Ukraine side, but I also saw

https://www.bitchute.com/video/6ZHPL2pTuadJ/

and Ukraine true/lie track record so far seems a bit bad

I am absolutely sure that Ukraine is doing propaganda from their side at full speed. However, even in the fog of war, you do have certain sources and facts that have a reasonable degree of credibility. It is clear that Putin's army fled the proximities of Kyiv, it is clear that they are not publishing the true extent of the dead soldiers and it is clear that crimes have been committed.

I do not disregard comments about Ukraine's behaviour, probably there are individuals or groups that may not have their hands clean and if that is the case, it will be documented and eventually, accredited. I have not seen any evidence accredited of any of the (quite incredible) claims Putin's has made (e.g. bioweapons).

This is the only reason why I am writing here, wasting my time for free every day, although it would be wiser for me to remain silent. I just don't like lies.

Same here...just can't stand lies and hypocrisy...as war itself is not horrible enough
Its not that Russians are not to blame, but we're witnessing media warfare never
seen before, and it often requires of us to be idiots to swallow it (Ghost of Kiev,
Russians driving tanks in Kiev over civil cars on day 1 of invasion etc)

On the civil cars being overrun... well at least there is one recorded evidence of one case. It did not seem intended, yet there it was.

[OutOfMemory]

Let's not forget the tank shooting at a car steered by an elder couple, for no reason. In the very first days of the war.

News for Russia trolls: Mid March dated highres satellite pics showing the same bodies in the same locations from the "staged video" of kiev suburbs like in the recent videos. Almost all "lies" complained to by Russia are now debunked. This is genocide, RIA doesn't even try to hide this fact any more.

Europe: Fasten your seat belts.

Russia: If you want to kill Nazis, go storm the Kremlin, or be the #1 scum nation of the globe. You choose.

[suchmoon]

This is genocide, RIA doesn't even try to hide this fact any more.

Not sure if you're referring to this: https://ria.ru/20220403/ukraina-1781469605.html (Russian) but definitely worth a read in any case.

While technically not an "official" government position - it describes what's going on in Bucha and other occupied areas. And the killings are just the beginning. Mass repressions, "reeducation", etc would follow.

[OutOfMemory]

This is genocide, RIA doesn't even try to hide this fact any more.

Not sure if you're referring to this: https://ria.ru/20220403/ukraina-1781469605.html (Russian) but definitely worth a read in any case.

While technically not an "official" government position - it describes what's going on in Bucha and other occupied areas. And the killings are just the beginning. Mass repressions, "reeducation", etc would follow.

Yes. While according to this document Ukrainian people "can't be reeducated". What in turn means...
Go figure. After all these confessions after 1945 that "something like this must never happen again" (similar to post-WW1 confessions of various great nations).

[Branko]

On the civil cars being overrun... well at least there is one recorded evidence of one case. It did not seem intended, yet there it was.

https://observers.france24.com/en/europe/20220301-video-debunked-russian-tank-crush-civilian-car-kyiv

[Johnlomape]

Russian soldiers attacking Ukrainian soil is generally unacceptable. The attack was not a good one, and I don't know the reason why they decided to attack their own neighboring country. The worse part is the attack on civilians which is against the rules of war. Attacking residents and innocent people is not a good way of fighting war. The Russian soldiers need to stop that act that is capable of bringing more heavy sanctions on them.

[OutOfMemory]

Russian soldiers attacking Ukrainian soil is generally unacceptable. The attack was not a good one, and I don't know the reason why they decided to attack their own neighboring country. The worse part is the attack on civilians which is against the rules of war. Attacking residents and innocent people is not a good way of fighting war. The Russian soldiers need to stop that act that is capable of bringing more heavy sanctions on them.

The russian nazis got paranoid that the ukrainian nazis could run them over with the help of NATO, USA and EU.
Fair to say, some reasonable concerns in there, but facing the massive fake news and public deception, not to speak of the blunt attack against UA, Russia looks extremely odd.

[paxmao]

On the civil cars being overrun... well at least there is one recorded evidence of one case. It did not seem intended, yet there it was.

https://observers.france24.com/en/europe/20220301-video-debunked-russian-tank-crush-civilian-car-kyiv

On this case, it look quite unintentional and the proof given makes sense, it could be an UKR vehicle. One case does not make a story and in a digital world there will be many other documents to examine. My personal take is that there has been plenty of intentional civil killing and war crimes and the ones near Kyiv seem clear and well documented.

Whatever that brand of car is, I want one.

[suchmoon]

Meanwhile on the other side of the country civilians are also being killed and Russian propaganda is working on new excuses:

https://russian.rt.com/ussr/news/978134-mariupol-likvidaciya-dezertiry

BC Poccии ликвидиpoвaли 93 yкpaинcкиx дeзepтиpa, кoтopыe бeжaли из Mapиyпoля в гpaждaнcкoй oдeждe, зaявил нaчaльник Haциoнaльнoгo цeнтpa yпpaвлeния oбopoнoй Poccии гeнepaл-пoлкoвник Mиxaил Mизинцeв.

The Russian Armed Forces liquidated 93 Ukrainian deserters who fled from Mariupol in civilian clothes, said Colonel-General Mikhail Mizintsev, head of the Russian National Defense Control Center.

Not sure if they had the supposed deserters in custody, i.e. they executed prisoners of war, or they just shot at civilians from a distance, but either case sounds like an admission of a war crime.

[paxmao]

Meanwhile on the other side of the country civilians are also being killed and Russian propaganda is working on new excuses:

https://russian.rt.com/ussr/news/978134-mariupol-likvidaciya-dezertiry

BC Poccии ликвидиpoвaли 93 yкpaинcкиx дeзepтиpa, кoтopыe бeжaли из Mapиyпoля в гpaждaнcкoй oдeждe, зaявил нaчaльник Haциoнaльнoгo цeнтpa yпpaвлeния oбopoнoй Poccии гeнepaл-пoлкoвник Mиxaил Mизинцeв.

The Russian Armed Forces liquidated 93 Ukrainian deserters who fled from Mariupol in civilian clothes, said Colonel-General Mikhail Mizintsev, head of the Russian National Defense Control Center.

Not sure if they had the supposed deserters in custody, i.e. they executed prisoners of war, or they just shot at civilians from a distance, but either case sounds like an admission of a war crime.

Do they say deserters? That is effectively killing civilians, as they do not have weapons and seem to have given up the army? The only case in which they could potentially be executed is if they were still combatants without uniform (AKA spies / saboteurs) and it would require trial.

What acts are war crimes?
War crimes are defined by the Geneva Conventions, the precedents of the Nuremberg Tribunals, an older area of law referred to as the Laws and Customs of War, and, in the case of the former Yugoslavia, the statutes of the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague (ICTY).

War crimes fall into three groups - or four if you include genocide.

Crimes against peace
planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances
participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the above
War crimes
Violations of the laws or customs of war, including:

Atrocities or offences against persons or property, constituting violations of the laws or customs of war
murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labour or for any other purpose of the civilian population in occupied territory
murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas
killing of hostages
torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments
plunder of public or private property
wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages
devastation not justified by military necessity
Crimes against humanity
Atrocities and offences committed against any civilian population, before or during the war, including:

murder
extermination
enslavement
deportation
mass systematic rape and sexual enslavement in a time of war
other inhumane acts
persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated
Responsibility for such crimes
Leaders, organisers, instigators and accomplices participating in the formulation or execution of a common plan or conspiracy to commit any of the crimes above are criminally responsible for everything done by anyone in carrying out such a plan.

Superior orders
The fact that a person was obeying an order of his Government or of a superior does not free him from responsibility, but can be considered and may reduce the appropriate punishment.

Of these, crimes against peace are quite clear, also these three war crimes are certain:

plunder of public or private property
wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages
devastation not justified by military necessity

On crimes against humanity, I think that "murder" is certain, "deportation" seems likely, "other inhuman acts" quite likely.

I do not think there is really a way to talk Putin's way out of these - I mean, credible way.

[suchmoon]

Drone footage of Russian forces killing a person whose body was recently found next to a bicycle in Bucha. Dated before March 11.

https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1511284174921076736

[Veleor]

Drone footage of Russian forces killing a person whose body was recently found next to a bicycle in Bucha. Dated before March 11.

https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1511284174921076736

The Ukrainian source "Cycпiльнe Hoвини" reported that this video was filmed on March 3, 2022 by aerial reconnaissance of the Azov Battalion. This information is in the description at the link.

However, on March 3, the Ukrainian media claimed that Bucha "was completely liberated from the invaders".

[coolcoinz]

Until RT tells you that the medical examiner is a Nazi or something.

Or until they say the examiners set up the bodies themselves. The most common response of Kremlin is attacking the attacker with the same words, saying "it wasn't us, it was you".

The massacre was initiated in NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria's proposal to Joseph Stalin to execute all captive members of the Polish officer corps, which was approved by the Soviet Politburo led by Stalin.[1] Of the total killed, about 8,000 were officers imprisoned during the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, another 6,000 were police officers, and the remaining 8,000 were Polish intelligentsia the Soviets deemed to be intelligence agents and gendarmes, spies and saboteurs, former landowners, factory owners and officials "intelligence agents and gendarmes, spies and saboteurs, former landowners, factory owners and officials".[2] The Polish Army officer class was representative of the multi-ethnic Polish state; the murdered included ethnic Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusians, and Jews including the chief Rabbi of the Polish Army, Baruch Steinberg.[3]

The government of Nazi Germany announced the discovery of mass graves in the Katyn Forest in April 1943
The USSR claimed the Nazis had killed the victims, and it continued to deny responsibility for the massacres until 1990, when it officially acknowledged and condemned the killings by the NKVD, as well as the subsequent cover-up by the Soviet government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

80 years have passed and Russians are doing the same exact thing. Same people, same mentality, different times.

[suchmoon]

Drone footage of Russian forces killing a person whose body was recently found next to a bicycle in Bucha. Dated before March 11.

https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1511284174921076736

The Ukrainian source "Cycпiльнe Hoвини" reported that this video was filmed on March 3, 2022 by aerial reconnaissance of the Azov Battalion. This information is in the description at the link.

However, on March 3, the Ukrainian media claimed that Bucha "was completely liberated from the invaders".

What's the point of this deflection? Are you going to claim that these are Ukrainian military vehicles? Even if media lied about "complete" liberation, the proof still stands.

[Marvelman]

80 years have passed and Russians are doing the same exact thing. Same people, same mentality, different times.

This is not something unique to Russians. I bet almost all aggressors and genocidal maniacs have at some point reacted in such a way and denied or minimized their atrocities, or even claimed they were never committed.

For example, after the Bosnian genocide in the 1990s, when it was shown that a staggering 8,000 Muslims had been massacred in a matter of several days, the Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic first denied that any war crimes had taken place, and then justified it by claiming that all the victims were Bosnian army forces and they were all killed in a firefight.

Likewise, when the Rohingya have been massacred by the Burmese military, the Burmese president, Aung San Suu Kyi, dismissed these crimes as "fake news" and said the Rohingyas were attacking themselves.

These examples could go on for pages, but the point is, in every instance when independent investigators finally do investigate these crimes and documents them, the aggressor and their enablers denounce the proceedings as "fake," or claim they never occurred.

[paxmao]

80 years have passed and Russians are doing the same exact thing. Same people, same mentality, different times.

This is not something unique to Russians. I bet almost all aggressors and genocidal maniacs have at some point reacted in such a way and denied or minimized their atrocities, or even claimed they were never committed.

For example, after the Bosnian genocide in the 1990s, when it was shown that a staggering 8,000 Muslims had been massacred in a matter of several days, the Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic first denied that any war crimes had taken place, and then justified it by claiming that all the victims were Bosnian army forces and they were all killed in a firefight.

Likewise, when the Rohingya have been massacred by the Burmese military, the Burmese president, Aung San Suu Kyi, dismissed these crimes as "fake news" and said the Rohingyas were attacking themselves.

These examples could go on for pages, but the point is, in every instance when independent investigators finally do investigate these crimes and documents them, the aggressor and their enablers denounce the proceedings as "fake," or claim they never occurred.

Certainly, the perpetrators rarely admit it if ever. But on this game (not a game really) of accusation and denial in the end there are countries that will believe it, some other will believe it and pretend they don't and some others will not care, yet this will not be indifferent when trying to negotiate or open diplomacy - it does have some weight and does not play in favour of removing sanctions.

[Branko]

80 years have passed and Russians are doing the same exact thing. Same people, same mentality, different times.

This is not something unique to Russians. I bet almost all aggressors and genocidal maniacs have at some point reacted in such a way and denied or minimized their atrocities, or even claimed they were never committed.

For example, after the Bosnian genocide in the 1990s, when it was shown that a staggering 8,000 Muslims had been massacred in a matter of several days, the Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic first denied that any war crimes had taken place, and then justified it by claiming that all the victims were Bosnian army forces and they were all killed in a firefight.

Likewise, when the Rohingya have been massacred by the Burmese military, the Burmese president, Aung San Suu Kyi, dismissed these crimes as "fake news" and said the Rohingyas were attacking themselves.

These examples could go on for pages, but the point is, in every instance when independent investigators finally do investigate these crimes and documents them, the aggressor and their enablers denounce the proceedings as "fake," or claim they never occurred.

We must give credit to Americans here.. Madeleine Albright readily admitted killing 500 000 children, I'm just not sure if that was out of conviction that it was righteous thing to do,
or because she knew USA will protect her even if she would kill another 500 000

[Marvelman]

We must give credit to Americans here.. Madeleine Albright readily admitted killing 500 000 children, I'm just not sure if that was out of conviction that it was righteous thing to do,
or because she knew USA will protect her even if she would kill another 500 000

500,000 Iraqi children were not killed by Madeleine Albright, despite her clumsy statement, but by Saddam Hussein.
However, I do not see how that relates to the current situation in Ukraine. A crime is a crime regardless of who the perpetrator is and what justification is sought for it.

[be.open]

Drone footage of Russian forces killing a person whose body was recently found next to a bicycle in Bucha. Dated before March 11.

https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1511284174921076736

The Ukrainian source "Cycпiльнe Hoвини" reported that this video was filmed on March 3, 2022 by aerial reconnaissance of the Azov Battalion. This information is in the description at the link.

However, on March 3, the Ukrainian media claimed that Bucha "was completely liberated from the invaders".

What's the point of this deflection? Are you going to claim that these are Ukrainian military vehicles? Even if media lied about "complete" liberation, the proof still stands.

This single episode with a cyclist does not fit into the overall picture of corpses neatly arranged in a checkerboard pattern with their hands tied. The armored vehicles in the video are probably Russian, several shots were first fired from an automatic 30-mm cannon of an airborne combat vehicle (BMD) and then another shot from a tank gun. There are a few questions below:
1. Why is the drone operator following this particular person, what is the purpose of his mission?
2. What kind of oblong object similar to a hand grenade launcher shoots this "civilian" from behind at about 0:49?
3. The first shot from an automatic 30-mm cannon of an airborne combat vehicle (BMD) was fired when this person had not even left the corner for line of sight at about 1:48, this person was shouting something and they opened fire at the sound ?
4. A few shots from a BMD cannon and a shot from a tank gun look redundant for one civilian on a bicycle, did the Russian paratroopers run out of machine guns?

If there is evidence here, it is not clear what exactly. Definitely not a mass execution of civilians by Russian soldiers. Maybe the Russians prevented a terrorist attack in this video (or I need a clear answer to my first question, because the reconnaissance drone is too expensive a toy with a short battery life to waste it on idle curiosity of the drone operator). You are trying to pass off as evidence something that is not evidence. The Russians simply have no motive to arrange executions of civilians in Ukraine. But for the Ukrainian side, this is beneficial for a number of reasons. And to blame the Russians, and to send a message to civilians in other cities not to cooperate with the Russian military. On April 2, the National Police of Ukraine on its official website openly wrote that in Bucha, after entering the city, a sweep was being carried out from "collaborators". Apparently, "collaborators" here mean everyone who received food and humanitarian aid from the Russians. Arranging demonstrative executions of civilians and blaming the Russians for everything is quite in style for the side that wanted to spit on the Geneva Convention and continues to torture and kill prisoners.

[suchmoon]

1. Why is the drone operator following this particular person, what is the purpose of his mission?

The drone is clearly focused on the the vehicles, zooming in and out on them, and the bicyclist is in the lower right corner most of the time. Only after the shot did the camera zoom in on that location.

The rest of your bullshit is equally absurd. There is plenty of evidence of Russian forces shooting civilians for spurious reasons or no reasons, as well as robbing, looting, etc. "No motive"

For example: https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-60988371