[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[binaryFate]

FreeBazaar is alive, and I would venture that pull requests would be welcome.  Disappointment will persist until it is usable.  I can't speak for atrides, just sayin' what I see.

Latest pull request was 4 days ago -> https://github.com/freebazaar/FreeBazaar/pull/3, so there is still some work going on. I have to agree though that the development is very slow and if I recall correctly Atrides personally said it would only be about 1-2 months work if funding was completed (which nearly was). There may some other causes though why development is going slow, but if so, he should communicate that better in my opinion.

As one of the donator for freebazar I have access to the "private" updates for the little donator group. However after crosschecking Atrides never said it was supposed to be kept private, so seeing how things are evolving I take on me to release it.
As you can see even within this little group there is little information (but to be fair nobody asked for much info either...).

Code:

== Wed, Jan 14 ==

Atrides: So here short squeeze of thoughts about payments within FreeBazaar to discuss: 
Payments: 1) Direct Payments 2) Payment via Escrow 
Escrow: Free multiple choice of options, determined per-transaction: 
- simple BTC/XMR escrow (for XMR without miltisig) 
- To reduce exchange rate risk USD-stabilized escrow (with convert on exchanges/Nubits/BitUSD/use Bitreserve. That will be explained by Escrow-service. Payments in any currency(BTC/USD) for both seller and buyer.


== Thu, Jan 15 ==
Atrides: I take some time to learn the code and set steps priorities for actual to do. I will inform you next days


== Wed, Jan 21 ==
binaryFate: How is it going? Once you get more familiar with the code base, can you give us a general estimate of the time needed for each further step?
Atrides: Hi guys, I'll offer details this weekend


== Tue, Jan 27 ==
Atrides: Hi guys, I have readed docs and code. 
So see one problem - core team of OpenBazaar works very slow. Last commit in dev-repo was two weeks ago. A lot of pull requests with ready code are pinding since october...bad. So I think our commits will be delayed for a long time. Without integration into OpenBazaar we can make it quicker, but within we have already prepared publicity, recognition.


== Wed, Jan 28 ==
binaryFate: I guess you can just work on a branch and keep going even if they don't merge changes back quickly


== Thu, Feb 5 ==
binaryFate: Is anything happening? Are you working on it or not at the moment?


== Sat, Feb 7 ==
Atrides: Hi, yes, I'm working. sadly I cannot work full time because I have collected less, so I must take other projects too


== Sun, Feb 15 ==
Atrides: I'm mostly working on some projects at the same time. bazaar is very important to me, but at the moment is not a priority. I promized to finished, and I will do that, sorry I cann't say on what days exactly I can work. last two weeks I was extremly busy, with no chance to do something else. Your money are not moved from my wallet I didn't sell them and won't do this till monero will rise many times because of bazaar. Next days I push some of commits to github what already done.


== Tue, Feb 17 ==
Atrides: First initial commit, added monero as alternative coin, other commits during this week after tests

    
== Tue, Mar 3 ==
REDACTED: How is progress? Any new commits?
Atrides: Yes, two days ago, some commits. This week I'll do the rest.


== Wed, Mar 11 ==
Atrides: I have asked developers of OpenBazaar that our patches may be implemented. In original OB Bitcoin is hardcoded overall.


== Wed, Mar 18 ==
Atrides: Hm...still no answer from Devs
Atrides: I pushed new commit. Communications with local monero Wallet and directly payment


== Sun, Mar 29 ==
Atrides: Good(?) news from dev of OpenBazaar, they can implement other coins if external dev make patches.


== Tue, Apr 7 ==
binaryFate: 
1) What is the state of the Monero freebazar branch? Is it fully functional? If not, what is missing and what is the ETA for it? 
2) Why not release the Monero freebazar code even if it's not merged mainstream by official openbazaar devs? If it's working let's release it, merge can come later. 


== Wed, Apr 8 ==
Atrides: 
1) Not fully functional because of problems in OB code and development of OB is very slooow. Also I will publish the full report of the state and problems, and ask which way we should go. 
2) Hm, I have official repository with all my commits: https://github.com/freebazaar/FreeBazaar I push commits only for good code, the development version on my dev-pc is unusable. Next days I'll push new commits. 


== Thu, Apr 9 ==
binaryFate: 
You should give a public detailed update on (i) what was done and (ii) what are the 'problems in OB code' you mention. I advise you to do it very soon, because many people are starting to question the way this little project is going as compared with the donations received.

Atrides: 
Yes, I plan to release next week the big report, after my last commit. The report needs some time, I want to describe problems, done work and future ways.
Currently don't have time to read the forum.

binaryFate:
Great, looking forward to the report.

[wpalczynski]

FreeBazaar is alive, and I would venture that pull requests would be welcome.  Disappointment will persist until it is usable.  I can't speak for atrides, just sayin' what I see.

Latest pull request was 4 days ago -> https://github.com/freebazaar/FreeBazaar/pull/3, so there is still some work going on. I have to agree though that the development is very slow and if I recall correctly Atrides personally said it would only be about 1-2 months work if funding was completed (which nearly was). There may some other causes though why development is going slow, but if so, he should communicate that better in my opinion.

As one of the donator for freebazar I have access to the "private" updates for the little donator group. However after crosschecking Atrides never said it was supposed to be kept private, so seeing how things are evolving I take on me to release it.
As you can see even within this little group there is little information (but to be fair nobody asked for much info either...).

Code:

== Wed, Jan 14 ==

Atrides: So here short squeeze of thoughts about payments within FreeBazaar to discuss: 
Payments: 1) Direct Payments 2) Payment via Escrow 
Escrow: Free multiple choice of options, determined per-transaction: 
- simple BTC/XMR escrow (for XMR without miltisig) 
- To reduce exchange rate risk USD-stabilized escrow (with convert on exchanges/Nubits/BitUSD/use Bitreserve. That will be explained by Escrow-service. Payments in any currency(BTC/USD) for both seller and buyer.


== Thu, Jan 15 ==
Atrides: I take some time to learn the code and set steps priorities for actual to do. I will inform you next days


== Wed, Jan 21 ==
binaryFate: How is it going? Once you get more familiar with the code base, can you give us a general estimate of the time needed for each further step?
Atrides: Hi guys, I'll offer details this weekend


== Tue, Jan 27 ==
Atrides: Hi guys, I have readed docs and code. 
So see one problem - core team of OpenBazaar works very slow. Last commit in dev-repo was two weeks ago. A lot of pull requests with ready code are pinding since october...bad. So I think our commits will be delayed for a long time. Without integration into OpenBazaar we can make it quicker, but within we have already prepared publicity, recognition.


== Wed, Jan 28 ==
binaryFate: I guess you can just work on a branch and keep going even if they don't merge changes back quickly


== Thu, Feb 5 ==
binaryFate: Is anything happening? Are you working on it or not at the moment?


== Sat, Feb 7 ==
Atrides: Hi, yes, I'm working. sadly I cannot work full time because I have collected less, so I must take other projects too


== Sun, Feb 15 ==
Atrides: I'm mostly working on some projects at the same time. bazaar is very important to me, but at the moment is not a priority. I promized to finished, and I will do that, sorry I cann't say on what days exactly I can work. last two weeks I was extremly busy, with no chance to do something else. Your money are not moved from my wallet I didn't sell them and won't do this till monero will rise many times because of bazaar. Next days I push some of commits to github what already done.


== Tue, Feb 17 ==
Atrides: First initial commit, added monero as alternative coin, other commits during this week after tests

    
== Tue, Mar 3 ==
REDACTED: How is progress? Any new commits?
Atrides: Yes, two days ago, some commits. This week I'll do the rest.


== Wed, Mar 11 ==
Atrides: I have asked developers of OpenBazaar that our patches may be implemented. In original OB Bitcoin is hardcoded overall.


== Wed, Mar 18 ==
Atrides: Hm...still no answer from Devs
Atrides: I pushed new commit. Communications with local monero Wallet and directly payment


== Sun, Mar 29 ==
Atrides: Good(?) news from dev of OpenBazaar, they can implement other coins if external dev make patches.


== Tue, Apr 7 ==
binaryFate: 
1) What is the state of the Monero freebazar branch? Is it fully functional? If not, what is missing and what is the ETA for it? 
2) Why not release the Monero freebazar code even if it's not merged mainstream by official openbazaar devs? If it's working let's release it, merge can come later. 


== Wed, Apr 8 ==
Atrides: 
1) Not fully functional because of problems in OB code and development of OB is very slooow. Also I will publish the full report of the state and problems, and ask which way we should go. 
2) Hm, I have official repository with all my commits: https://github.com/freebazaar/FreeBazaar I push commits only for good code, the development version on my dev-pc is unusable. Next days I'll push new commits. 


== Thu, Apr 9 ==
binaryFate: 
You should give a public detailed update on (i) what was done and (ii) what are the 'problems in OB code' you mention. I advise you to do it very soon, because many people are starting to question the way this little project is going as compared with the donations received.

Atrides: 
Yes, I plan to release next week the big report, after my last commit. The report needs some time, I want to describe problems, done work and future ways.
Currently don't have time to read the forum.

binaryFate:
Great, looking forward to the report.

One of you guys should ask him for an approximate ETA.  His answer will give a better idea if there is any hope of this being completed or if it was all simply a donation to his cause.

[Anon136]

How private is Monero? If I am a normal guy, doing a mixin of 10, and I post my transaction id, what analysis can the public find?

Someone smarter than me correct me if i get something wrong, but as i understand it:

They can use the key image to find out whether it was a doublespend attempt or not. They can use it to determine that, for a given input, it came from one of the 10 mixin partners (its self an obfuscated key since it was previously an output that was derived in such a way as to be unlikable). They can use the details of the transaction to determine whether or not the key image is valid. And finally if you are the recipient than you can use the outputs to determine that the funds belong to you, or vice verca if you are not the recipient. They can check that the signatures are valid for each of the inputs. Other than that, nothing.

[smooth]

How private is Monero? If I am a normal guy, doing a mixin of 10, and I post my transaction id, what analysis can the public find?

Someone smarter than me correct me if i get something wrong, but as i understand it:

They can use the key image to find out whether it was a doublespend attempt or not. They can use it to determine that, for a given input, it came from one of the 10 mixin partners (its self an obfuscated key since it was previously an output that was derived in such a way as to be unlikable). They can use the details of the transaction to determine whether or not the key image is valid. And finally if you are the recipient than you can use the outputs to determine that the funds belong to you, or vice verca if you are not the recipient. Other than that, nothing.

Looks right. Also can check that the signatures are valid for each of the inputs.

[Anon136]

latest monero mixxives guys and gals https://www.mixcloud.com/Vanderi/the-war-thread/

This is really good! But what does it have to do with monero?

more than you begging to be an escrow

TO A MONERO RELATED EXCHANGE!

[pa]

I'd really prefer if donations for a project are held by a dev or someone of trust. I would send some coins over if this was done, Monero on a trezor would be great.

Edit: You might even be trustworthy, but I will wait till someone vouches for you seeing as you have a Newbie account.

Honestly, not a big fan of BitcoinTalk. I've been hanging around Monero IRC since I discovered it 2-3 weeks ago. Suggestion to cross-post this here actually came from there.

Anyway, feel free to Google me if that gives me some credibility in your eyes - same username everywhere (real life/irc/twitter/github/linkedin/...).

Would you mind tweeting something about Monero to confirm your identity?

[saddambitcoin]

I get this error trying to build the current master of bitmonero on OSX. Any ideas what this is?

Code:

Scanning dependencies of target otshell_utils
[  5%] Building CXX object contrib/otshell_utils/CMakeFiles/otshell_utils.dir/ccolor.cpp.o
In file included from /Users/****/bitmonero-master/contrib/otshell_utils/ccolor.cpp:1:
In file included from /Users/****/bitmonero-master/contrib/otshell_utils/ccolor.hpp:10:
In file included from /Library/Developer/CommandLineTools/usr/bin/../include/c++/v1/iostream:38:
In file included from /Library/Developer/CommandLineTools/usr/bin/../include/c++/v1/ios:216:
In file included from /Library/Developer/CommandLineTools/usr/bin/../include/c++/v1/__locale:15:
In file included from /Library/Developer/CommandLineTools/usr/bin/../include/c++/v1/string:439:
In file included from /Library/Developer/CommandLineTools/usr/bin/../include/c++/v1/algorithm:628:
In file included from /Library/Developer/CommandLineTools/usr/bin/../include/c++/v1/memory:604:
/Library/Developer/CommandLineTools/usr/bin/../include/c++/v1/iterator:341:10: fatal error: 
      '__debug' file not found
#include <__debug>
         ^
1 error generated.
make[3]: *** [contrib/otshell_utils/CMakeFiles/otshell_utils.dir/ccolor.cpp.o] Error 1
make[2]: *** [contrib/otshell_utils/CMakeFiles/otshell_utils.dir/all] Error 2
make[1]: *** [all] Error 2
make: *** [release] Error 2

[smooth]

latest monero mixxives guys and gals https://www.mixcloud.com/Vanderi/the-war-thread/

This is really good! But what does it have to do with monero?

It's inspired by the war thread and it's also a great branding and promotional tool. How many coins have their own mixes?

[5w00p]

I swear, 1 minute block time is actually one of the best features of Monero.
Yet another feature where the difference between it and BTC is glaringly obvious in the favor of XMR.

[nachoig]

I swear, 1 minute block time is actually one of the best features of Monero.
Yet another feature where the difference between it and BTC is glaringly obvious in the favor of XMR.

Propagation of the blocks takes time, an excessively fast block generation increases the percentage of orphans and doesn't necessarily is more secure against double spend. It was one of the main concerns at launch time. I don't think 1 minute counts in favor of Monero.

[Anon136]

I swear, 1 minute block time is actually one of the best features of Monero.
Yet another feature where the difference between it and BTC is glaringly obvious in the favor of XMR.

well you gave me an excuse to drag this post over from the other thread so im going to take it. it was kind of out of place in that thread anyway.

deleting the other post, this is its replacement.

ok here is the formula.

a = percentage of the total network hash rate controlled by attacker (expressed in decimal notation)
b = # of blocks
n = likelihood of discovering b # of blocks for a % of total network hashrate before anyone else

f(n)=a^(b-1)        (im sure this can be simplified but w/e it works)

So back to our 2 blockchains. If the attacker wants to double-spend and has 25% of the total network hashrate, than his chances of discovering 1 block are 25%. 2 blocks in a row is 12.5%.

1 0.250000

2 0.125000

3 0.062500

4 0.031250

5 0.015625

6 0.007812

7 0.003906

8 0.001953

9 0.000976

10 0.000488

and after 60 minutes like bitcoin satoshi client suggests with 1 minute blocks it would be 4.336808e-19.

So the point is that there is an inherent advantage to security resulting from fast blocks. As such the acceptable orphan rate would be a reasonable trade off. It wouldn't come from some effort to approach as close to 0 as you can. Once its too high of course single actors get a bigger advantage since they dont have to wait to start mining ontop of their own block. But the preferable trade off would probably be a higher orphan rate than most people think. You would have to develop some models to get a good idea, but probably 5% is totally reasonable.

tldr version: i agree.

[5w00p]

I swear, 1 minute block time is actually one of the best features of Monero.
Yet another feature where the difference between it and BTC is glaringly obvious in the favor of XMR.

Propagation of the blocks takes time, an excessively fast block generation increases the percentage of orphans and doesn't necessarily is more secure against double spend. It was one of the main concerns at launch time. I don't think 1 minute counts in favor of Monero.

You are welcome to your opinion.
I stand by mine.

[nachoig]

I swear, 1 minute block time is actually one of the best features of Monero.
Yet another feature where the difference between it and BTC is glaringly obvious in the favor of XMR.

Propagation of the blocks takes time, an excessively fast block generation increases the percentage of orphans and doesn't necessarily is more secure against double spend. It was one of the main concerns at launch time. I don't think 1 minute counts in favor of Monero.

You are welcome to your opinion.
I stand by mine.

No problem, I understand perfectly.  

There are some plausible reasons to have a faster block generation. Anon136 posted a good reason (other reason can be the incentive to solo mining). 10 minutes can sound very long. Anyway it's already a huge advantage over credit cards and remittances, where you can take several business days (in credit cards you can revert months later!!!!).

BTW, is there any statistic about orphan blocks in Monero?

[Anon136]

BTW, is there any statistic about orphan blocks in Monero?

I too would very much like to know this. If its much over 5% than probably 1 minute is too fast.

[5w00p]

BTW, is there any statistic about orphan blocks in Monero?

I too would very much like to know this. If its much over 5% than probably 1 minute is too fast.

Why, exactly?

[Anon136]

BTW, is there any statistic about orphan blocks in Monero?

I too would very much like to know this. If its much over 5% than probably 1 minute is too fast.

Why, exactly?

Because the higher the orphan rate the more advantage a block author has over the rest of the network when producing the next block. Or alternatively, we could imagine a "guild" (for lack of a better term) of miners who all lived near each-other and had direct fiber connecting each other, the same principal would apply. Or even a group of non affiliated miners all in the same city or country or under the umbrella of the same ISP. High orphan rates are a strong pressure towards centralization. It is a threat not to be taken lightly.

[5w00p]

Yeah, so
TL;DR

1 minute blox is gude

[fluffypony]

Yeah, so
TL;DR

1 minute blox is gude

I'm reasonably sure I discussed this in the LTB podcast, but basically TFT's decision for a 1 minute block time was nonsensical. We don't know why he chose it, but it definitely wasn't based on any form of logic. Personally, if I had to do it over I'd probably go for a 3 minute block time or so.

We're also not closed to changing Monero's block time to 2 minutes, for eg., and doubling block rewards to match. However, it's low priority at the moment, and will require more research before we put a peg in the sand on that. Possibly the outcome of that research is "the current affect is not drastic, and technology is changing so rapidly that we don't see a need to change it", but we can only know once we get to it:)

[opennux]

After the disappointment (or worse) of the FreeBazaar project, people are going to be understandably more reluctant to give direct donations to even a legitimate project.

Until the crowdfunding features of the Monero forum are up and running I'd suggest finding a trusted escrow to hold the funds and release them upon defined milestones (some could be released at start once a funding goal is achieved).

Maybe to save discourse going forward consensus from the community, and especially core devs, could be to loosely only sanction donations if a pre-requisite is met, such as agreement by the project manager to have donations released after met milestones, or that the project manager is already well-known and trusted in the community. Or some such. Otherwise we will keep running into scams, and that could be diminished. When a coredev throws in money it is perceived as sanctioning (i.e. approval) of the project and people behind. I know you are individuals, but...

It looks like Atrides is pulling through, albeit slower than planned though.


Edit: Point:

Edit: You might even be trustworthy, but I will wait till someone vouches for you seeing as you have a Newbie account.

fluffypony donated 50 himself, so i figured that was enough for me to trust. Hope it works out! 

[smooth]

Yeah, so
TL;DR

1 minute blox is gude

I'm reasonably sure I discussed this in the LTB podcast, but basically TFT's decision for a 1 minute block time was nonsensical. We don't know why he chose it, but it definitely wasn't based on any form of logic. Personally, if I had to do it over I'd probably go for a 3 minute block time or so.

We're also not closed to changing Monero's block time to 2 minutes, for eg., and doubling block rewards to match. However, it's low priority at the moment, and will require more research before we put a peg in the sand on that. Possibly the outcome of that research is "the current affect is not drastic, and technology is changing so rapidly that we don't see a need to change it", but we can only know once we get to it:)

I have only a slightly different view. If the decision was nonsensical and wasn't based on logic, then it should just be changed to something sensible at the earliest convenient opportunity. There is no need to do research to undo something that was nonsense and had no research supporting it to begin with. Every opportunity that goes by without fixing it is a decision that is being made without research to continue what TFT started.

Then, once that is out of the way, it certainly makes sense to do research into whether it should be changed again, how to improve things, and so forth.

There is little practical difference at the moment, as it certainly isn't a convenient opportunity to make such a change, with the DB and other more urgent items in play.