[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[fluffypony]

I would argue that the ability to "prove" your transaction is not hugely important. Such is the nature of cash. You probably wouldn't want to use cash to make public transactions, nor would you be inclined to use Monero.

We should focus on making XMR as untracable and unlinkable as we can (like cash), while continuing to improve usability, and worry less about these convenience features until the coin is more mature. I truly think it will be a mistake to try to make this a do-it-all, something-for-everybody currency.

For usability's sake, there should be a default ambiguity (that isn't zero. Maybe 1 or 2?). Setting specific levels of ambiguity should be an advanced or custom parameter that the average user shouldn't have to think about for common transactions.

Unfortunately it's not possible to completely disable the ability to prove a transaction is yours. After all, your "balance" (for want of a better term) is really just the sum of all your unspent inputs, determined by stepping through the blockchain with your private key and determining, for each transaction, if it contains an output or input related to you. Thus, at its worst, a user could move funds to a new wallet and reveal their private key for the old in order to expose transactions. We have to accept this as a given.

Thus, we may as well provide the functionality in a way that doesn't compromise users on either side of the transaction. BUT - you are right, it is not a major focus right now. There are stacks of other things that have to be done before we get to this tooling, but it is on the radar.

Changes to increase resistance to attacks that attempt to reduce the anonymity set are under discussion (as evidenced here, but on IRC more), so we definitely aren't letting things stay as-is:)

... please understand this is such an edge-case that we're taking about protection from an extremely sophisticated attacker with extremely large access to resources.

Such as a certain 3-letter government agency? These are exactly the people we're trying to keep out. Otherwise we'd just stick to coin-join.

Monero is at least 12 months away from anything close to this, and it's hard to determine when it is "safe enough" for this. My comment was just to point out that to the casual observers, very technical people, and even reasonably sophisticated attackers Monero is already "safe enough". To a more sophisticated attacker, especially the aforementioned 3LAs, there are so many edge cases we need to deal with that it will take time. But in its current form, it already blows CoinJoin out the water.

[cAPSLOCK]

Please forgive my shameless plug for the donations thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=700400.msg7914927#msg7914927

The monero devs are not paid by a premine like so may other alts.  Donations are a very small price to pay for that critical part of the design.

Here are the donation tiers... secure a spot in the history of this coin today:

Donators of 1,000 XMR - 6th dan monero superheros with 1 crate of Diamonds

Donators of 500 XMR - 5th dan monero superheros with piles of Rhodium

Donators of 200 XMR - 4th dan monero superheros with bars of Platinum

Donators of 100 XMR - 3rd dan monero heros with coins of Gold

Donators of 50 XMR - 2nd dan monero heros with a stash of Silver

Donators of 20 XMR - 1st dan monero heros with a hoard of Copper

Donators of 10 XMR - 1st kyu monero supporters with a bale of high quality hygiene paper

Donators of 5 XMR - 2nd kyu monero supporters with a wad of U.S. dollars

Donators of 2 XMR - 3rd kyu monero supporters with a holding of Goxcoins

Donators of 1 XMR - 4th kyu monero supporters with a bag of Darkcoins


On this link, you can also see who has earned one of these pretentious ranks!  Go put your name among the honored ones:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=700400.msg7914927#msg7914927

[Johnny Mnemonic]

... please understand this is such an edge-case that we're taking about protection from an extremely sophisticated attacker with extremely large access to resources.

Such as a certain 3-letter government agency? These are exactly the people we're trying to keep out. Otherwise we'd just stick to coin-join.

Monero is at least 12 months away from anything close to this, and it's hard to determine when it is "safe enough" for this. My comment was just to point out that to the casual observers, very technical people, and even reasonably sophisticated attackers Monero is already "safe enough". To a more sophisticated attacker, especially the aforementioned 3LAs, there are so many edge cases we need to deal with that it will take time. But in its current form, it already blows CoinJoin out the water.

Agreed, and I realize it's a work in progress I wasn't suggesting that CoinJoin is anywhere close to CN tech. The point was that until these edge cases are dealt with, it doesn't really matter.

[Anon136]

I recommend watching Coast to coast (7-24), scary stuff about banks being able to move money from your account without even asking for permission aka what happened in cyprus.

When you deposit money into a bank, you are legally defined as an unsecured creditor. There is no "your money" after you deposit. When you deposit you have loaned the bank money. That money belongs entirely to the bank. You may then request for them to pay back some or all of that loan at a future date, but it is up to them whether or not to comply with that request. The advantages of paying you back is that it helps to maintain their reputation and ensure that they will have more creditors similar to yourself in the future. The advantage of not paying you back is, well, they have more money. This means that if the bank is in a situation where they have expectation of receiving more loans from creditors in the future than they will be incentivized to make good on their debt to you, but if they do not have such an expectation, than they will be incentivized not to make good on their debt to you. There are verious factors which can lead to a situation where they do not have an expectation that creditors will continue to loan them money in the future.

TLDR: don't ever loan a bank more money than is absolutely necessary.

[Anon136]

I recommend watching Coast to coast (7-24), scary stuff about banks being able to move money from your account without even asking for permission aka what happened in cyprus.

When you deposit money into a bank, you are legally defined as an unsecured creditor. There is no "your money" after you deposit. When you deposit you have loaned the bank money. That money belongs entirely to the bank. You may then request for them to pay back some or all of that loan at a future date, but it is up to them whether or not to comply with that request. The advantages of paying you back is that it helps to maintain their reputation and ensure that they will have more creditors similar to yourself in the future. The advantage of not paying you back is, well, they have more money. This means that if the bank is in a situation where they have expectation of receiving more loans from creditors in the future than they will be incentivized to make good on their debt to you, but if they do not have such an expectation, than they will be incentivized not to make good on their debt to you.

TLDR: don't ever loan a bank more money than is absolutely necessary.

exactly, fortunately Monero community is already comprised of smart gentleman that are alert of such perils.

Thats why i love this forum. If i just went to some general purpose anarchist forum it would be one giant circle jerk. Here its like we are united by something else, but generally all understand the same principals that would have been present in the aforementioned.

[ray88]

Just made a website so we can talk about Monero irc or chat box MoneroChat.com

[Anon136]

Just made a website so we can talk about Monero irc or chat box MoneroChat.com

I opened the link, put my user name, hit start.

Code:

Error Connecting (Error: xhr poll error)

[dewdeded]

Search for an better Web2IRC-script/gateway software. E.g.
http://ircanywhere.com/ or https://github.com/spoulson/Chatmore

But you should really do research, there most likeley even better ones.

[cinnamon_carter]

quite funny actually

So...lets see if I understand this correctly...

1) You have a ton of alt coins already...but you want to borrow more
2) You have hundreds of thousands in transactions in poker but you can't affort $500 to $1200 worth of some other alt coins?
3) You have been trading for 7 months, yet don't have enough money for your trading.

Got it. Where can I send you money? I would like to be part of this right away!  

lols, my thoughts exactly Mumbles...why not just claim you're a nigerian prince who enjoys trading alts?

[ray88]

Just made a website so we can talk about Monero irc or chat box MoneroChat.com

I opened the link, put my user name, hit start.

Code:

Error Connecting (Error: xhr poll error)

Kiwi had some problems last night its all fine now ! Happy Chat

[HashInvest]

Pyкoвoдcтвo пo ycтaнoвкe и мaйнингy Monero нa pyccкoм языкe http://hashinvest.net/ru_monero_mining_guide.pdf

// Russian Monero setup and mining guide

[MarcusCisero45]

Is there a simple guide anywhere on how to transfer Moneros?

What are the different values for "mxin_count" and what is recommended?

What do you put in the "payment_id" field etc?

What is the transfer fee?

[fluffypony]

Is there a simple guide anywhere on how to transfer Moneros?

What are the different values for "mxin_count" and what is recommended?

What do you put in the "payment_id" field etc?

What is the transfer fee?

mixin = the level of ambiguity you want to add to the transfer (ie. the number of signatures you want to mix with)

payment ID = an optional field, exchanges and merchants may give you a 64 character string to put in here

The fee is currently 0.005 XMR per transaction. This will change in future.

[MarcusCisero45]

Is there a simple guide anywhere on how to transfer Moneros?

What are the different values for "mxin_count" and what is recommended?

What do you put in the "payment_id" field etc?

What is the transfer fee?

mixin = the level of ambiguity you want to add to the transfer (ie. the number of signatures you want to mix with)

payment ID = an optional field, exchanges and merchants may give you a 64 character string to put in here

The fee is currently 0.005 XMR per transaction. This will change in future.

Thank you fro the fast reply.

About the mixin.. What is the standard number and what is the maximum number?

[sammy007]

Is there a simple guide anywhere on how to transfer Moneros?

What are the different values for "mxin_count" and what is recommended?

What do you put in the "payment_id" field etc?

What is the transfer fee?

mixin = the level of ambiguity you want to add to the transfer (ie. the number of signatures you want to mix with)

payment ID = an optional field, exchanges and merchants may give you a 64 character string to put in here

The fee is currently 0.005 XMR per transaction. This will change in future.

Thank you fro the fast reply.

About the mixin.. What is the standard number and what is the maximum number?

0-10

No standard number. Use 0 for non-anon transfers. I'd recommend 3+.

[MarcusCisero45]

Is there a simple guide anywhere on how to transfer Moneros?

What are the different values for "mxin_count" and what is recommended?

What do you put in the "payment_id" field etc?

What is the transfer fee?

mixin = the level of ambiguity you want to add to the transfer (ie. the number of signatures you want to mix with)

payment ID = an optional field, exchanges and merchants may give you a 64 character string to put in here

The fee is currently 0.005 XMR per transaction. This will change in future.

Thank you fro the fast reply.

About the mixin.. What is the standard number and what is the maximum number?

0-10

No standard number. Use 0 for non-anon transfers. I'd recommend 3+.

The higher the number the longer the transaction takes? Is that correct?

[binaryFate]

Is there a simple guide anywhere on how to transfer Moneros?

What are the different values for "mxin_count" and what is recommended?

What do you put in the "payment_id" field etc?

What is the transfer fee?

mixin = the level of ambiguity you want to add to the transfer (ie. the number of signatures you want to mix with)

payment ID = an optional field, exchanges and merchants may give you a 64 character string to put in here

The fee is currently 0.005 XMR per transaction. This will change in future.

Thank you fro the fast reply.

About the mixin.. What is the standard number and what is the maximum number?

0-10

No standard number. Use 0 for non-anon transfers. I'd recommend 3+.

The higher the number the longer the transaction takes? Is that correct?

Not at all. It has no impact on the confirmation time of the transaction
It only increases very slightly the transaction size, so you might pay a little higher transaction fee (the price of increased privacy), but the difference at the moment is not significant.

[MarcusCisero45]

Alright so I tried my first Monero transfer from one adress of mine to another on my laptop. I used mixin count 3. I sent it about 10 min ago and it still hasn't showed up yet. How long does it usually take to get confirmed?

[fluffypony]

Alright so I tried my first Monero transfer from one adress of mine to another on my laptop. I used mixin count 3. I sent it about 10 min ago and it still hasn't showed up yet. How long does it usually take to get confirmed?

A minute, maybe 2. Variance on 60 second blocks isn't terrible, so I haven't seen a notably high block time yet.

First thing to check would be monerochain.info to see if it's been mined, just search for the transaction ID. If it is, then make sure you "refresh" the other wallet, and make sure you're caught up and in-sync with the network.

[sabreezie]

There is a lot of botnets that mine coins. And XMR developers don't deny that it's a true
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583449.msg7778054#msg7778054