[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[r05]

Checking Github is all fine and good, but we should also take into account that not everyone will be able to understand progress by checking a dev repository. I think that it is consensual that the average user has a bit of a learning curve to deal with when first getting into monero as it is, so I kindly ask that we all try to be as friendly as possible to any newcomers and newbies.

Confession: I find it difficult sometimes to distinguish newcomers/newbies from the more elaborate/graceful FUD posters (if there is such a thing). The former deserve our inclusion efforts, the latter, well, we should just ignore them and appreciate the thread bump 

~ Myagui

+1 to this.

I feel Monero is rapidly heading into the "user-friendly" proportion of crypto users. Not everybody is comfortable with CLI wallets and we need to accept that. When a good 95% of other alts out there are Qt-based - with a nice shiny front-end GUI with logos and taskbar icons and cross-platform compatability for use on shiny MacBooks, Microsoft Surface tablets and desktop Windows units, which users know how to use and abuse - when these users are then confronted with Monero - a (at first glance) CLI-only wallet, I don't think anyone can blame them for being surprised. I was, when I first opened the wallet, and I use CLI every single day at work. I think the cries for an official GUI are warranted - those users who have no technical background and are only into cryptos for the trading aspect are not going to appreciate the CLI interface. The sad truth is there are a lot of users who come from this background. The high rollers with the huge BTC wallets are those users. Day traders and investors are often not technical - they come from banking, stocks and shares professions. They may not have the time nor the patience to get to grips with the CLI. They just want something that works and works well. Qt (for the most part) provides that and I think Monero is loosing out a bit in that regard.

This is my opinion, this isn't fact. Whilst we can say "learn to use the CLI" or "just go and get the unofficial .NET or Qt wallet" that won't stop people who don't have the time/don't want to use an unofficial client abandoning Monero. Usability is a huge factor in any product when it comes to uptake from the consumer. The wallet being CLI-only isn't a problem as such but it is something to discuss long-term. If we don't want to attract users that don't want to learn how to use the CLI then who do we want to attract? And does that then mean that Monero is only for a certain user group and not for everyone?

Points to mull over I suppose.

[fluffypony]

I feel Monero is rapidly heading into the "user-friendly" proportion of crypto users. Not everybody is comfortable with CLI wallets and we need to accept that. When a good 95% of other alts out there are Qt-based - with a nice shiny front-end GUI with logos and taskbar icons and cross-platform compatability for use on shiny MacBooks, Microsoft Surface tablets and desktop Windows units, which users know how to use and abuse - when these users are then confronted with Monero - a (at first glance) CLI-only wallet, I don't think anyone can blame them for being surprised. I was, when I first opened the wallet, and I use CLI every single day at work. I think the cries for an official GUI are warranted - those users who have no technical background and are only into cryptos for the trading aspect are not going to appreciate the CLI interface. The sad truth is there are a lot of users who come from this background. The high rollers with the huge BTC wallets are those users. Day traders and investors are often not technical - they come from banking, stocks and shares professions. They may not have the time nor the patience to get to grips with the CLI. They just want something that works and works well. Qt (for the most part) provides that and I think Monero is loosing out a bit in that regard.

This is my opinion, this isn't fact. Whilst we can say "learn to use the CLI" or "just go and get the unofficial .NET or Qt wallet" that won't stop people who don't have the time/don't want to use an unofficial client abandoning Monero. Usability is a huge factor in any product when it comes to uptake from the consumer. The wallet being CLI-only isn't a problem as such but it is something to discuss long-term. If we don't want to attract users that don't want to learn how to use the CLI then who do we want to attract? And does that then mean that Monero is only for a certain user group and not for everyone?

Points to mull over I suppose.

There's still a ton of work to be done till this is remotely feasible. Can you imagine if we had the world's most beautiful cross-platform wallet right now, but to use it you need several gigabytes of available memory, and it'll max out your 20mbps line?

Moreover, if Monero is to be treated by users as a private, secure, untraceable cryptocurrency, we need to be more certain of those three aspects. We are reasonably assured right now, but there is still a great deal of cryptanalysis and threat modelling that is lacking due to the inherited reference code. We cannot be lackadaisical with this, as it is other people's money we will be putting at risk.

Edit: that's not to say we aren't actively working on things that improve usability, but there are fundamentals that are more important before we can focus on - and drive - usability. I understand this may be at-odds with other cryptocurrencies who are given the silver platter of 5+ years of Bitcoin development by forking it, but we do not have that luxury.

[myagui]

Checking Github is all fine and good, but we should also take into account that not everyone will be able to understand progress by checking a dev repository.

Agreed, which is why we have the weekly Monero Missive so that nobody has to check the various github forks:)

Oh I'm quite happy with the weekly Missive, and I had no intention of complaining at the communication efforts from the core dev team. They key point I wanted to get across, is particularly addressed at the global Monero community (my peers), and how we generally address newcomers. Repeating below, with selective emphasis:

I think that it is consensual that the average user has a bit of a learning curve to deal with when first getting into monero as it is, so I kindly ask that we all try to be as friendly as possible to any newcomers and newbies.

On the upthread points about development & usability, I'll just add that I have no doubt that the core dev team has their priorities in good order. I'm eagerly looking forward to each item on the dev diary reaching upcoming milestones. 

Keep up the good work!
~ Myagui

[ingiltere]

Monero is the best coin I've seen in a while. I'm patiently waiting straight working GUI to tell it to my friends. They don't get it if it has only cmd mode wallet.

[EFS]

EDIT: I don't have any distrust towards Monero devs, but there's a certain Forum that calls me Donator for the reason that I donated 10 BTC to them and none of it has been used for anything useful, as far as I know.

You know forum is spending 350k $ (up to 1m $) for the new software.

Monero is the best coin I've seen in a while. I'm patiently waiting straight working GUI to tell it to my friends. They don't get it if it has only cmd mode wallet.

Agreed, I'm waiting easy-to-use official GUI, too. I already got hard times when I tell how to use Bitcoin-qt to my friends.

[r05]

I feel Monero is rapidly heading into the "user-friendly" proportion of crypto users. Not everybody is comfortable with CLI wallets and we need to accept that. When a good 95% of other alts out there are Qt-based - with a nice shiny front-end GUI with logos and taskbar icons and cross-platform compatability for use on shiny MacBooks, Microsoft Surface tablets and desktop Windows units, which users know how to use and abuse - when these users are then confronted with Monero - a (at first glance) CLI-only wallet, I don't think anyone can blame them for being surprised. I was, when I first opened the wallet, and I use CLI every single day at work. I think the cries for an official GUI are warranted - those users who have no technical background and are only into cryptos for the trading aspect are not going to appreciate the CLI interface. The sad truth is there are a lot of users who come from this background. The high rollers with the huge BTC wallets are those users. Day traders and investors are often not technical - they come from banking, stocks and shares professions. They may not have the time nor the patience to get to grips with the CLI. They just want something that works and works well. Qt (for the most part) provides that and I think Monero is loosing out a bit in that regard.

This is my opinion, this isn't fact. Whilst we can say "learn to use the CLI" or "just go and get the unofficial .NET or Qt wallet" that won't stop people who don't have the time/don't want to use an unofficial client abandoning Monero. Usability is a huge factor in any product when it comes to uptake from the consumer. The wallet being CLI-only isn't a problem as such but it is something to discuss long-term. If we don't want to attract users that don't want to learn how to use the CLI then who do we want to attract? And does that then mean that Monero is only for a certain user group and not for everyone?

Points to mull over I suppose.

There's still a ton of work to be done till this is remotely feasible. Can you imagine if we had the world's most beautiful cross-platform wallet right now, but to use it you need several gigabytes of available memory, and it'll max out your 20mbps line?

Moreover, if Monero is to be treated by users as a private, secure, untraceable cryptocurrency, we need to be more certain of those three aspects. We are reasonably assured right now, but there is still a great deal of cryptanalysis and threat modelling that is lacking due to the inherited reference code. We cannot be lackadaisical with this, as it is other people's money we will be putting at risk.

Edit: that's not to say we aren't actively working on things that improve usability, but there are fundamentals that are more important before we can focus on - and drive - usability. I understand this may be at-odds with other cryptocurrencies who are given the silver platter of 5+ years of Bitcoin development by forking it, but we do not have that luxury.

Absolutely, and fundamentally this is why Monero is a much different coin than the other alts that exist atm. The approach is completely different and this is why things are done in a different way. I'm all behind the way the developers have chosen to do things and I think that tackling the important aspects to nail down what Monero is is a very good strategy. I'm supportive of this, but I can see why those that are less familiar with the coin and those who haven't been around as long as I have might jump to conclusion regarding it.

I have no complaints and no gripes with how the coin is being developed. I think it is the right way to develop a coin that is privacy and security orientated. I think my post might have had a bit of an anti-Monero tone to it and I didn't mean for it to - I think I was just launching off onto a mini rant about useability and not taking the wider context - but fundamentally, I think Monero is heading in the absolute right direction for what it was designed to achieve.

[Jojatekok]

First time to XMR community.It's a big and strong community,hope i can get sth

welcome, sky is the limit, tell everyone you know.

[fluffypony]

I have no complaints and no gripes with how the coin is being developed. I think it is the right way to develop a coin that is privacy and security orientated. I think my post might have had a bit of an anti-Monero tone to it and I didn't mean for it to - I think I was just launching off onto a mini rant about useability and not taking the wider context - but fundamentally, I think Monero is heading in the absolute right direction for what it was designed to achieve.

Don't worry, I didn't take it as being negative at all:) I'm a massive, massive advocate of "form over function" (or, maybe more specifically, "simple and elegant over complex and customisable"), and Monero will get that.

[rpietila]

Donations have been slow

I set up some guidelines in the donation thread, one is the accountability and transparency in the use of donations:
- who decides how money is spent
- who spends it
- how is it accounted for and monitored.

I kindly ask the devteam to write a few lines about this, so I feel much better to donate and promote others to do so.

EDIT: I don't have any distrust towards Monero devs, but there's a certain Forum that calls me Donator for the reason that I donated 10 BTC to them and none of it has been used for anything useful, as far as I know.

Sure: we've published the view key for the donation wallet precisely so there can be transparency (although, admittedly, the tooling does not exist as yet for anyone to peek in). The core team all decide together when money has to be spent.

A typical example could be where a team member wants to spend 20 hours working on Monero in a week. This necessitates them not spending those 20 hours working on their "normal" stuff that makes sure they can pay their bills at the end of the month. In this event, they can indicate the minimum rate necessary for them to recoup this lost income, and it is paid out of the dev donations.

Similarly, the cost of bandwidth used to serve blockchain downloads is heavy. We are moving those to infrastructure on unmetered ports, but that infrastructure also carries a cost.

Of course, since the donations have been slow, 90% of this is typically paid by those of us in the core team that have funds on-hand, in the hopes of recouping them at some point in the future.

Every expenditure is noted. We will likely make this public in some form in the future, but that will be subsequent to us receiving legal and financial advice as to the tax and privacy implications in doing so.

Accepted. 300 XMR sent.

[rpietila]

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

Quote from: Eal F. Skillz on Today at 12:19:24 PM
Quote from: rpietila on Today at 09:18:28 AM
EDIT: I don't have any distrust towards Monero devs, but there's a certain Forum that calls me Donator for the reason that I donated 10 BTC to them and none of it has been used for anything useful, as far as I know.

You know forum is spending 350k $ (up to 1m $) for the new software.

wtf 1,000,000 $ in forum software ?  Shocked

So, is the rate of development on the forum software 2x, 5x, or 10x the rate of development of the bitcoin protocol?

[sammy007]

Quote from: Eal F. Skillz on Today at 12:19:24 PM
Quote from: rpietila on Today at 09:18:28 AM
EDIT: I don't have any distrust towards Monero devs, but there's a certain Forum that calls me Donator for the reason that I donated 10 BTC to them and none of it has been used for anything useful, as far as I know.

You know forum is spending 350k $ (up to 1m $) for the new software.

wtf 1,000,000 $ in forum software ?  Shocked

So, is the rate of development on the forum software 2x, 5x, or 10x the rate of development of the bitcoin protocol?

Oh my dear, $1M for forum software? Ridiculous! Like russian government tenders scam for such software dedicated to schools. Brilliant bullshit.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Regarding accessibility, I'm actually working on a slick deterministic seed based web-wallet that could perhaps be integrated into monerochain.info if there's interest. My intention is to drastically lower the barrier of entry to using Monero without depending on the core devs polishing the client.

I don't like talking about work this early on, but I want people to know there are complimentary projects taking place outside the official github repo.

[rpietila]

Regarding accessibility, I'm actually working on a slick deterministic seed based web-wallet that could perhaps be integrated into monerochain.info if there's interest. My intention is to drastically lower the barrier of entry to using Monero without depending on the core devs polishing the client.

I don't like talking about work this early on, but I want people to know there are complimentary projects taking place outside the official github repo.

I know that Easywallet-type of wallets are to be avoided, but for rapid adoption, they have played a part in BTC and could do that also with XMR.

[Joshuar]

Regarding accessibility, I'm actually working on a slick deterministic seed based web-wallet that could perhaps be integrated into monerochain.info if there's interest. My intention is to drastically lower the barrier of entry to using Monero without depending on the core devs polishing the client.

I don't like talking about work this early on, but I want people to know there are complimentary projects taking place outside the official github repo.

I know that Easywallet-type of wallets are to be avoided, but for rapid adoption, they have played a part in BTC and could do that also with XMR.

While looking around for online wallets. I came across simplewallet.com, they look interesting, though I have no idea if it will have any Bitcoin/Cryptocurrency support.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Regarding accessibility, I'm actually working on a slick deterministic seed based web-wallet that could perhaps be integrated into monerochain.info if there's interest. My intention is to drastically lower the barrier of entry to using Monero without depending on the core devs polishing the client.

I don't like talking about work this early on, but I want people to know there are complimentary projects taking place outside the official github repo.

I know that Easywallet-type of wallets are to be avoided, but for rapid adoption, they have played a part in BTC and could do that also with XMR.

Agreed. I think blockchain.info style wallets are pretty safe for everyday use and would make it a lot easier for people to use the currency, but I wouldn't depend on them for securing any significant amount of wealth.

[cAPSLOCK]

Regarding accessibility, I'm actually working on a slick deterministic seed based web-wallet that could perhaps be integrated into monerochain.info if there's interest. My intention is to drastically lower the barrier of entry to using Monero without depending on the core devs polishing the client.

I don't like talking about work this early on, but I want people to know there are complimentary projects taking place outside the official github repo.

I know that Easywallet-type of wallets are to be avoided, but for rapid adoption, they have played a part in BTC and could do that also with XMR.

Agreed. I think blockchain.info style wallets are pretty safe for everyday use and would make it a lot easier for people to use the currency, but I wouldn't depend on them for securing any significant amount of wealth.

I would like to point out there is a HUGE difference between blockchain.info wallets and easywallet.org and other wallets including coinbase for that matter.

With blockchain.info YOU control the private keys.  With so many others you do not.

IMHO any good web wallet will work this way.  Basing it of the 24 word mnemonic might be a good approach.

[cAPSLOCK]

See another good implementation of a web wallet where the user is in control here:
https://wallet.coinpunk.com

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Regarding accessibility, I'm actually working on a slick deterministic seed based web-wallet that could perhaps be integrated into monerochain.info if there's interest. My intention is to drastically lower the barrier of entry to using Monero without depending on the core devs polishing the client.

I don't like talking about work this early on, but I want people to know there are complimentary projects taking place outside the official github repo.

I know that Easywallet-type of wallets are to be avoided, but for rapid adoption, they have played a part in BTC and could do that also with XMR.

Agreed. I think blockchain.info style wallets are pretty safe for everyday use and would make it a lot easier for people to use the currency, but I wouldn't depend on them for securing any significant amount of wealth.

I would like to point out there is a HUGE difference between blockchain.info wallets and easywallet.org and other wallets including coinbase for that matter.

With blockchain.info YOU control the private keys.  With so many others you do not.

IMHO any good web wallet will work this way.  Basing it of the 24 word mnemonic might be a good approach.

That's the idea. Keep in mind there will always be a security/convenience trade-off when it comes to coin storage. But for casual non-investor types, I believe these solutions to be plenty suitable, assuming the provider is reputable.

[uvwvj]

A coin punk type Web wallet would be fantastic.