rpietila Altcoin Observer

[digitalindustry]

http://kolinevans.wordpress.com/2014/07/02/on-po-proof-of-scam-defining-the-rational-crypto-currency-exclusive-socioeconomic-dynamic/
http://kolinevans.wordpress.com/2014/07/04/why-has-litecoin-decoupled-from-bitcoin-and-is-on-a-price-decline-and-why-is-this-important-for-quark-and-other-free-market-crypto-currencies/

Arrgh.  You wasted my time!  Shame on you.

If it wasn't a clear attempt to promote a shitcin, I'd think it is some automatically generated content.

Meh LTC bagholders. What can you do?

Why would you come to the conclusion that its LTC bagholders and not just people who couldn't care less about you promoting Quark...

ignore the "Quark" stuff if you like? after all the blog under title is  "Quark cryptocurrency - investment economics and policy"  so you know? ? ?

and yes i expect this drop in price has created many a bag holder, of which i'm not of course.

because i sold out up there.

so you know, you can keep buying hyped up shit if you like, misunderstanding crypto fundamentals - and i'll keep making money? *

*"money" defined as wealth.

[superresistant]

I'm not sure I understand the part were you talk about staking = losing... how ?
If you don't stake you use it. Using a token/coin/currency give its value. As long as you don't spend/use it, it remain virtual.

Staking coins = gaining interest. Because this is a default no-cost options, everyone is doing it thus the "value" present on the network will be split across existing stake and new issued coins for the stakes (if the coin is not fully mined). Thus, you are not actually gaining "value" but you spread it across increasingly more coins, something called inflation of monetary mass.
Not staking coins means your value is diminished because the individual tokens are worth less. Or compared to stakers, you don't gain as much. Being a zero sum game without value influx/outflux, not staking coins puts you in a constant loss of value.
Why would you hold a coin that holds it's value like Bitcoin or one that loses value like Peercoin? Oh, you only want to use it when really needed? Why would anyone provide counterparty for your need if they can lose if your demand is lower than expected.
The main argument against PoS is the old "the rich get richer". Not a problem with that, except they do NOTHING but freeze coins, there is no risk involved inside the system. They don't buy hardware, they don't pay utilities, they don't hire people. They just do nothing and get rewarded. You think Bitcoin hodlers are gaining rude profits by doing nothing? PoS makes it even worse. But again, without actual new value added into the system, the existing value is spread around to the existing coins (think stable market cap) and each coin is losing value. There is a difference between theory and application, just like Communism, some things look great on paper but fail the test of reality.
As for providing extra services... what are the benefits of using NXT/MSC/XC?

There is no interest in Nxt. The interest that some PoS coin added is called minting (Mintcoin).

In Nxt, there is forging : it reward owners of nodes with the fees used for transactions and services use.
You don't do nothing, you must run a node to get rewarded. The reward is proportional to your stake like the reward from mining is proportional to your investment in hardware. The people that forge, get about 2-5% per year or something. In fact, none of the big Nxt holders forge. Probably because the gain is ridiculous.
Notice that there are no inflation in PoS like Nxt, the total max amount of coins remain the same and lost coins add value to others.

There is a difference between theory and application. In fact, the theoretical problems of Nxt doesn't apply : no one is getting rich doing nothing (gain from forging is too small for investors to forge for that purpose), the initial distribution is not a problem for users, the network is immune to 51% attack (as no pool exist), there is no Nxt fork (still alive).

As for providing extra services, Nxt is just so mind-blowing that others cryptos seems obsolete compared to it.
Here a some services that are already active or in development :

Alias System
Arbitrary Messages
Asset Exchange
Automated Transactions
Digital Goods Store
Instant Transactions
Judgement System
Monetary System
Multigateway++
Transparent Forging
Voting System
Parallel Blockchains
...

All of these features have a separate board on nxtforum.org. The most impressive is the Asset Exchange. Everything is included in the native client.

[digitalindustry]

I'm not sure I understand the part were you talk about staking = losing... how ?
If you don't stake you use it. Using a token/coin/currency give its value. As long as you don't spend/use it, it remain virtual.

Staking coins = gaining interest. Because this is a default no-cost options, everyone is doing it thus the "value" present on the network will be split across existing stake and new issued coins for the stakes (if the coin is not fully mined). Thus, you are not actually gaining "value" but you spread it across increasingly more coins, something called inflation of monetary mass.
Not staking coins means your value is diminished because the individual tokens are worth less. Or compared to stakers, you don't gain as much. Being a zero sum game without value influx/outflux, not staking coins puts you in a constant loss of value.
Why would you hold a coin that holds it's value like Bitcoin or one that loses value like Peercoin? Oh, you only want to use it when really needed? Why would anyone provide counterparty for your need if they can lose if your demand is lower than expected.
The main argument against PoS is the old "the rich get richer". Not a problem with that, except they do NOTHING but freeze coins, there is no risk involved inside the system. They don't buy hardware, they don't pay utilities, they don't hire people. They just do nothing and get rewarded. You think Bitcoin hodlers are gaining rude profits by doing nothing? PoS makes it even worse. But again, without actual new value added into the system, the existing value is spread around to the existing coins (think stable market cap) and each coin is losing value. There is a difference between theory and application, just like Communism, some things look great on paper but fail the test of reality.
As for providing extra services... what are the benefits of using NXT/MSC/XC?

There is no interest in Nxt. The interest that some PoS coin added is called minting (Mintcoin).

In Nxt, there is forging : it reward owners of nodes with the fees used for transactions and services use.
You don't do nothing, you must run a node to get rewarded. The reward is proportional to your stake like the reward from mining is proportional to your investment in hardware. The people that forge, get about 2-5% per year or something. In fact, none of the big Nxt holders forge. Probably because the gain is ridiculous.
Notice that there are no inflation in PoS like Nxt, the total max amount of coins remain the same and lost coins add value to others.

There is a difference between theory and application. In fact, the theoretical problems of Nxt doesn't apply : no one is getting rich doing nothing (gain from forging is too small for investors to forge for that purpose), the initial distribution is not a problem for users, the network is immune to 51% attack (as no pool exist), there is no Nxt fork (still alive).

As for providing extra services, Nxt is just so mind-blowing that others cryptos seems obsolete compared to it.
Here a some services that are already active or in development :

Alias System
Arbitrary Messages
Asset Exchange
Automated Transactions
Digital Goods Store
Instant Transactions
Judgement System
Monetary System
Multigateway++
Transparent Forging
Voting System
Parallel Blockchains
...

All of these features have a separate board on nxtforum.org. The most impressive is the Asset Exchange.

ah this explains so much.

sorry about exposing the NXT Proof of Scam (Po$) system.

but you must admit, everyone has learned !  : )

[Cablez]

If it wasn't for the Nxt shit distribution model it might actually be compelling.  I don't trust IPOs

[BombaUcigasa]

I'm not sure I understand the part were you talk about staking = losing... how ?
If you don't stake you use it. Using a token/coin/currency give its value. As long as you don't spend/use it, it remain virtual.

Staking coins = gaining interest. Because this is a default no-cost options, everyone is doing it thus the "value" present on the network will be split across existing stake and new issued coins for the stakes (if the coin is not fully mined). Thus, you are not actually gaining "value" but you spread it across increasingly more coins, something called inflation of monetary mass.
Not staking coins means your value is diminished because the individual tokens are worth less. Or compared to stakers, you don't gain as much. Being a zero sum game without value influx/outflux, not staking coins puts you in a constant loss of value.
Why would you hold a coin that holds it's value like Bitcoin or one that loses value like Peercoin? Oh, you only want to use it when really needed? Why would anyone provide counterparty for your need if they can lose if your demand is lower than expected.
The main argument against PoS is the old "the rich get richer". Not a problem with that, except they do NOTHING but freeze coins, there is no risk involved inside the system. They don't buy hardware, they don't pay utilities, they don't hire people. They just do nothing and get rewarded. You think Bitcoin hodlers are gaining rude profits by doing nothing? PoS makes it even worse. But again, without actual new value added into the system, the existing value is spread around to the existing coins (think stable market cap) and each coin is losing value. There is a difference between theory and application, just like Communism, some things look great on paper but fail the test of reality.
As for providing extra services... what are the benefits of using NXT/MSC/XC?

There is no interest in Nxt. The interest that some PoS coin added is called minting (Mintcoin).

In Nxt, there is forging : it reward owners of nodes with the fees used for transactions and services use.
You don't do nothing, you must run a node to get rewarded. The reward is proportional to your stake like the reward from mining is proportional to your investment in hardware. The people that forge, get about 2-5% per year or something. In fact, none of the big Nxt holders forge. Probably because the gain is ridiculous.
Notice that there are no inflation in PoS like Nxt, the total max amount of coins remain the same and lost coins add value to others.

There is a difference between theory and application. In fact, the theoretical problems of Nxt doesn't apply : no one is getting rich doing nothing (gain from forging is too small for investors to forge for that purpose), the initial distribution is not a problem for users, the network is immune to 51% attack (as no pool exist), there is no Nxt fork (still alive).

As for providing extra services, Nxt is just so mind-blowing that others cryptos seems obsolete compared to it.
Here a some services that are already active or in development :

Alias System
Arbitrary Messages
Asset Exchange
Automated Transactions
Digital Goods Store
Instant Transactions
Judgement System
Monetary System
Multigateway++
Transparent Forging
Voting System
Parallel Blockchains
...

All of these features have a separate board on nxtforum.org. The most impressive is the Asset Exchange. Everything is included in the native client.

If it wasn't for the Nxt shit distribution model it might actually be compelling.  I don't trust IPOs

I agree with both these posters. I helped someone prototype an asset exchange based on PoW so I am a bit saddened that someone else made a version and outright sold it to get filthy rich and bypass the growth and community investment.

If and when a PoW NXT arises, I would assume the PoS version will become inferior and lose market cap and support.

For example: http://coinmarketcap.com/xrp_180.html

[darkota]

I'm not sure I understand the part were you talk about staking = losing... how ?
If you don't stake you use it. Using a token/coin/currency give its value. As long as you don't spend/use it, it remain virtual.

Staking coins = gaining interest. Because this is a default no-cost options, everyone is doing it thus the "value" present on the network will be split across existing stake and new issued coins for the stakes (if the coin is not fully mined). Thus, you are not actually gaining "value" but you spread it across increasingly more coins, something called inflation of monetary mass.
Not staking coins means your value is diminished because the individual tokens are worth less. Or compared to stakers, you don't gain as much. Being a zero sum game without value influx/outflux, not staking coins puts you in a constant loss of value.
Why would you hold a coin that holds it's value like Bitcoin or one that loses value like Peercoin? Oh, you only want to use it when really needed? Why would anyone provide counterparty for your need if they can lose if your demand is lower than expected.
The main argument against PoS is the old "the rich get richer". Not a problem with that, except they do NOTHING but freeze coins, there is no risk involved inside the system. They don't buy hardware, they don't pay utilities, they don't hire people. They just do nothing and get rewarded. You think Bitcoin hodlers are gaining rude profits by doing nothing? PoS makes it even worse. But again, without actual new value added into the system, the existing value is spread around to the existing coins (think stable market cap) and each coin is losing value. There is a difference between theory and application, just like Communism, some things look great on paper but fail the test of reality.
As for providing extra services... what are the benefits of using NXT/MSC/XC?

There is no interest in Nxt. The interest that some PoS coin added is called minting (Mintcoin).

In Nxt, there is forging : it reward owners of nodes with the fees used for transactions and services use.
You don't do nothing, you must run a node to get rewarded. The reward is proportional to your stake like the reward from mining is proportional to your investment in hardware. The people that forge, get about 2-5% per year or something. In fact, none of the big Nxt holders forge. Probably because the gain is ridiculous.
Notice that there are no inflation in PoS like Nxt, the total max amount of coins remain the same and lost coins add value to others.

There is a difference between theory and application. In fact, the theoretical problems of Nxt doesn't apply : no one is getting rich doing nothing (gain from forging is too small for investors to forge for that purpose), the initial distribution is not a problem for users, the network is immune to 51% attack (as no pool exist), there is no Nxt fork (still alive).

As for providing extra services, Nxt is just so mind-blowing that others cryptos seems obsolete compared to it.
Here a some services that are already active or in development :

Alias System
Arbitrary Messages
Asset Exchange
Automated Transactions
Digital Goods Store
Instant Transactions
Judgement System
Monetary System
Multigateway++
Transparent Forging
Voting System
Parallel Blockchains
...

All of these features have a separate board on nxtforum.org. The most impressive is the Asset Exchange. Everything is included in the native client.

If it wasn't for the Nxt shit distribution model it might actually be compelling.  I don't trust IPOs

I agree with both these posters. I helped someone prototype an asset exchange based on PoW so I am a bit saddened that someone else made a version and outright sold it to get filthy rich and bypass the growth and community investment.

If and when a PoW NXT arises, I would assume the PoS version will become inferior and lose market cap and support.

For example: http://coinmarketcap.com/xrp_180.html

I agree, a PoW version of NXT would blow the PoS version out of the water.

[canonsburg]

The community should only embrace IPOs if all the coins used to buy the IPO were burned instead like in XCP.

[Este Nuno]

I'm not sure I understand the part were you talk about staking = losing... how ?
If you don't stake you use it. Using a token/coin/currency give its value. As long as you don't spend/use it, it remain virtual.

Staking coins = gaining interest. Because this is a default no-cost options, everyone is doing it thus the "value" present on the network will be split across existing stake and new issued coins for the stakes (if the coin is not fully mined). Thus, you are not actually gaining "value" but you spread it across increasingly more coins, something called inflation of monetary mass.
Not staking coins means your value is diminished because the individual tokens are worth less. Or compared to stakers, you don't gain as much. Being a zero sum game without value influx/outflux, not staking coins puts you in a constant loss of value.
Why would you hold a coin that holds it's value like Bitcoin or one that loses value like Peercoin? Oh, you only want to use it when really needed? Why would anyone provide counterparty for your need if they can lose if your demand is lower than expected.
The main argument against PoS is the old "the rich get richer". Not a problem with that, except they do NOTHING but freeze coins, there is no risk involved inside the system. They don't buy hardware, they don't pay utilities, they don't hire people. They just do nothing and get rewarded. You think Bitcoin hodlers are gaining rude profits by doing nothing? PoS makes it even worse. But again, without actual new value added into the system, the existing value is spread around to the existing coins (think stable market cap) and each coin is losing value. There is a difference between theory and application, just like Communism, some things look great on paper but fail the test of reality.
As for providing extra services... what are the benefits of using NXT/MSC/XC?

There is no interest in Nxt. The interest that some PoS coin added is called minting (Mintcoin).

In Nxt, there is forging : it reward owners of nodes with the fees used for transactions and services use.
You don't do nothing, you must run a node to get rewarded. The reward is proportional to your stake like the reward from mining is proportional to your investment in hardware. The people that forge, get about 2-5% per year or something. In fact, none of the big Nxt holders forge. Probably because the gain is ridiculous.
Notice that there are no inflation in PoS like Nxt, the total max amount of coins remain the same and lost coins add value to others.

There is a difference between theory and application. In fact, the theoretical problems of Nxt doesn't apply : no one is getting rich doing nothing (gain from forging is too small for investors to forge for that purpose), the initial distribution is not a problem for users, the network is immune to 51% attack (as no pool exist), there is no Nxt fork (still alive).

As for providing extra services, Nxt is just so mind-blowing that others cryptos seems obsolete compared to it.
Here a some services that are already active or in development :

Alias System
Arbitrary Messages
Asset Exchange
Automated Transactions
Digital Goods Store
Instant Transactions
Judgement System
Monetary System
Multigateway++
Transparent Forging
Voting System
Parallel Blockchains
...

All of these features have a separate board on nxtforum.org. The most impressive is the Asset Exchange. Everything is included in the native client.

The first time someone sent me a link to the NXT website I thought what I was reading was too good to be true.

[digicoin]

So basically, everyone agrees that Nxt is dead or never works a currency but a company's stock 

[darkota]

So basically, everyone agrees that Nxt is dead 

Until there's a PoW version, I will not be using that scam distribution coin that we call NXT.

[ShroomsKit_Disgrace]

Any PoS coin that has an IPO will never get far. Incase you guys haven't noticed, Bitcointalk.org is not the public, having an IPO where even 10,000 "real" members take part is still an extremely unfair distribution.

With PoW, anyone can go and try and mine, no matter how late they are to the scene. I had a friend try and mine Bitcoin on his cpu, hey at least he tried and could of gotten some if he was successfull, but that could never happen with PoS coins.

Darkota, not get offended please, but you are an ignorant prick.
What is the different between buying a coin and buying the mining equipment to average joe?
If you have spent 10k usd in mining equipment and IPOs take the lead, dont be so butthurt and open your mind.
You are welcome.

[darkota]

Any PoS coin that has an IPO will never get far. Incase you guys haven't noticed, Bitcointalk.org is not the public, having an IPO where even 10,000 "real" members take part is still an extremely unfair distribution.

With PoW, anyone can go and try and mine, no matter how late they are to the scene. I had a friend try and mine Bitcoin on his cpu, hey at least he tried and could of gotten some if he was successfull, but that could never happen with PoS coins.

Darkota, not get offended please, but you are an ignorant prick.
What is the different between buying a coin and buying the mining equipment to average joe?
If you have spent 10k usd in mining equipment and IPOs take the lead, dont be so butthurt and open your mind.
You are welcome.

Are you this simple minded?

With an IPO and pure PoS coins, there is a limited amount of time you are able to become a stakeholder, so the ones who get in early have a hugely unfair advantage over everyone else

With a PoW coin, you can always mine if you want, for decades to come, and the ones that get in early have an advantage, but not by that much.(Ex: Bitcoin etc etc)


For EX: The first 50 accounts on NXT's richlist own over 48% of all coins there is...

Do your Homework please.

[superresistant]

Any PoS coin that has an IPO will never get far. Incase you guys haven't noticed, Bitcointalk.org is not the public, having an IPO where even 10,000 "real" members take part is still an extremely unfair distribution.
With PoW, anyone can go and try and mine, no matter how late they are to the scene. I had a friend try and mine Bitcoin on his cpu, hey at least he tried and could of gotten some if he was successfull, but that could never happen with PoS coins.

Darkota, not get offended please, but you are an ignorant prick.
What is the different between buying a coin and buying the mining equipment to average joe?
If you have spent 10k usd in mining equipment and IPOs take the lead, dont be so butthurt and open your mind.
You are welcome.

Are you this simple minded?
With an IPO an pure PoS coins, there is a limited amount of time you are able to become a stakeholder, so the ones who get in early have a hugely unfair advantage over everyone else
With a PoW coin, you can always mine if you want, for decades to come, and the ones that get in early have an advantage, but not by that much.(Ex: Bitcoin etc etc)
For EX: The first 50 accounts on NXT's richlist own over 48% of all coins there is...
Do your Homework please.

That's not a good argument sorry.
On PoW, few big miners/company will be owning over 50% of the hardware so, it end up the same.

Actually, it is worse : 3 pools own 95% of the network.

[darkota]

Any PoS coin that has an IPO will never get far. Incase you guys haven't noticed, Bitcointalk.org is not the public, having an IPO where even 10,000 "real" members take part is still an extremely unfair distribution.
With PoW, anyone can go and try and mine, no matter how late they are to the scene. I had a friend try and mine Bitcoin on his cpu, hey at least he tried and could of gotten some if he was successfull, but that could never happen with PoS coins.

Darkota, not get offended please, but you are an ignorant prick.
What is the different between buying a coin and buying the mining equipment to average joe?
If you have spent 10k usd in mining equipment and IPOs take the lead, dont be so butthurt and open your mind.
You are welcome.

Are you this simple minded?
With an IPO an pure PoS coins, there is a limited amount of time you are able to become a stakeholder, so the ones who get in early have a hugely unfair advantage over everyone else
With a PoW coin, you can always mine if you want, for decades to come, and the ones that get in early have an advantage, but not by that much.(Ex: Bitcoin etc etc)
For EX: The first 50 accounts on NXT's richlist own over 48% of all coins there is...
Do your Homework please.

That's not a good argument sorry.
On PoW, few big miners/company will be owning over 50% of the hardware so, it end up the same.

Actually, it is worse : 3 pools own 95% of the network.

That's for Bitcoin only you're talking about.

Even so, it's still better to have Pools owning most of the hashrate, instead of a small amount of people, like in NXT, owning most of the coins. The Nothing At Stake attack for PoS coins is so, that if you ever held 51% or more of all coins, you will always be able to do the Nothing At Stake attack, even if you dont own 51% or more of the coins anymore.

With PoW, having 51% of the hashrate increases the chances of being able to do a 51% attack, but only for the amount of time you own that much of the hashrate, unlike PoS, where even if you owned 51% of the coins at any moment in the past, you will always be able to do the attack.

I'm sorry but PoS has to many flaws, like that Nothing At Stake attack, is 10x worse than a 51% attack for PoW coins...There's no point in argueing  because you know it's true..

[JorgeStolfi]

For EX: The first 50 accounts on NXT's richlist own over 48% of all coins there is...

But the bitcoin distribution is not much better, is it? By Risto's estimates, 50% of the bitcoins that exist now are owned by a few thousand people -- isn't that so? 

Future mining may reduce that to 25%.  Or may not, depending on the relationship between  miners and hoarders.  Either way, it is a significant concentration of the future world's money supply in a few hands.

[darkota]

For the moment, PoW is simply better.

I do agree however, that PoW transitioning into PoS over a period of time is the best way to go.

But, Pure/100% Pos is one of the worst ways you can go, as you see with NXT.

[darkota]

For EX: The first 50 accounts on NXT's richlist own over 48% of all coins there is...

But the bitcoin distribution is not much better, is it? By Risto's estimates, 50% of the bitcoins that exist now are owned by a few thousand people -- isn't that so?  

Future mining may reduce that to 25%.  Or may not, depending on the relationship between  miners and hoarders.  Either way, it is a significant concentration of the future world's money supply in a few hands.

I wonder what's better.

A few thousand people owning around 50% of all Bitcoins, which presents no harm to the network besides a few thousand people owning around 50% of all bitcoins....

OR

50 people owning over 48% of all NXT coins, which if one person decided to buy up 51% of all NXT coins, he will be able to do the Nothing at Stake attack on NXT, from that point on forever....even if he dosent own 51% of the coins anymore.

I'm sure the first option with Bitcoin is 10000000x better than the 2nd Option with a PoS coin aka NXT.

[nioc]

Any PoS coin that has an IPO will never get far. Incase you guys haven't noticed, Bitcointalk.org is not the public, having an IPO where even 10,000 "real" members take part is still an extremely unfair distribution.
With PoW, anyone can go and try and mine, no matter how late they are to the scene. I had a friend try and mine Bitcoin on his cpu, hey at least he tried and could of gotten some if he was successfull, but that could never happen with PoS coins.

Darkota, not get offended please, but you are an ignorant prick.
What is the different between buying a coin and buying the mining equipment to average joe?
If you have spent 10k usd in mining equipment and IPOs take the lead, dont be so butthurt and open your mind.
You are welcome.

Are you this simple minded?
With an IPO an pure PoS coins, there is a limited amount of time you are able to become a stakeholder, so the ones who get in early have a hugely unfair advantage over everyone else
With a PoW coin, you can always mine if you want, for decades to come, and the ones that get in early have an advantage, but not by that much.(Ex: Bitcoin etc etc)
For EX: The first 50 accounts on NXT's richlist own over 48% of all coins there is...
Do your Homework please.

That's not a good argument sorry.
On PoW, few big miners/company will be owning over 50% of the hardware so, it end up the same.

Actually, it is worse : 3 pools own 95% of the network.

Hardware =/coins  
Unless they keep all the coins the distribution is not even close.

Miners =/ Pool
The pools are comprised of many miners so it's not the pool's owning the network without the miners.
Also the current stats for total hr of the 3 largest pools is 60%.
https://blockchain.info/pools?timespan=24hrs

[superresistant]

Hardware =/coins  
Unless they keep all the coins the distribution is not even close.
Miners =/ Pool
The pools are comprised of many miners so it's not the pool's owning the network without the miners.
Also the current stats for total hr of the 3 largest pools is 60%.
https://blockchain.info/pools?timespan=24hrs

You're right.

My point was that each system has compromise.

If there was one perfect system, we would not be arguing and 100% of cryptos would be on that system.

[HardwarePal]

Just so people understand alittle you do not need 51% of the total coins in POS , you need 51% of the staked coins.
If I'm not mistaken.