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[Secondleo]

I have been following this thread for long. By the first IPO, I was happy with the detailed explanation from Grexx and SyRenity about initial distribution. Why the 15% or the 10% was required etc made sense. The final outlay about dev fund reflecting the amount of btc raised seemed good too. But then there was this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654463.msg7602355#msg7602355

This was just before the initial distribution. While it was later corrected by SyRenity to reflect the OP; now we have ended up with the same distribution (up to 25% premine for the guys). Now, IMO this amounts to double speak and constant moving goalpost by the team. So I am outta here.

PS: for guys who actually want to invest, at BTC at 650, here's what the whole coin will be worth:
250 BTC = 812,500
300 BTC = 1.02 million
350 BTC = 1.26 million
400 BTC = 1.53 million
450 BTC = 1.83 million
500 BTC = 2.17 million

Now the question is - is the current beta worth that much money? Think and invest.

The unanswered question is how many coins are going to be sold in the IPO.  The OP says 80% of the genesis block.  It does not say how big this block will be.  Total coins to be mined is listed at 100Million.  If the genesis block is a huge 1 million coins, and they raise even 250 BTC for the IPO, that makes each CRYPTI coin worth......25,000 satoshis!!!

Thats quite a high price for a new coin.


SO, what is the size of the genesis block going to be??

Litoshi, the genesis block is listed as 100,000,000 in the whitepaper, it must not have been transferred to the OP correctly when it was re-written for the new updates? It will all be created in the Genesis block and distributed according to escrow. There is no mining and all currency will be created in the genesis block. Hope that clears up that point.

AH Yes.... Now it all becomes clear.  You guys are not setting up another CryptoCoin to be mined and created by miners POW, you are selling COINS that you created out of thin air.

Since these coins are negotiable, and earn interest over time (POS payments) you are actually selling a financial security.  

If you are not registered with the US SEC to do this in the US, you are committing a felony in the US.  

There are also laws to require registration for selling securities in Russia and EU.  

Anybody that would buy these unregistered securities would be a fool.

So, coins that have mining involved are no financial security?

[Neo.op]

I have been following this thread for long. By the first IPO, I was happy with the detailed explanation from Grexx and SyRenity about initial distribution. Why the 15% or the 10% was required etc made sense. The final outlay about dev fund reflecting the amount of btc raised seemed good too. But then there was this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654463.msg7602355#msg7602355

This was just before the initial distribution. While it was later corrected by SyRenity to reflect the OP; now we have ended up with the same distribution (up to 25% premine for the guys). Now, IMO this amounts to double speak and constant moving goalpost by the team. So I am outta here.

PS: for guys who actually want to invest, at BTC at 650, here's what the whole coin will be worth:
250 BTC = 812,500
300 BTC = 1.02 million
350 BTC = 1.26 million
400 BTC = 1.53 million
450 BTC = 1.83 million
500 BTC = 2.17 million

Now the question is - is the current beta worth that much money? Think and invest.

The unanswered question is how many coins are going to be sold in the IPO.  The OP says 80% of the genesis block.  It does not say how big this block will be.  Total coins to be mined is listed at 100Million.  If the genesis block is a huge 1 million coins, and they raise even 250 BTC for the IPO, that makes each CRYPTI coin worth......25,000 satoshis!!!

Thats quite a high price for a new coin.


SO, what is the size of the genesis block going to be??

100 million at genesis. The calculation was based on the fact that 75% was being sold to the community. So basically, each coin at 250 BTC was worth 250 satoshis (you cant only count 75 or 80 of the stake - the price at IPO will set the price for all 100% of the coin).

[crypti]

I have been following this thread for long. By the first IPO, I was happy with the detailed explanation from Grexx and SyRenity about initial distribution. Why the 15% or the 10% was required etc made sense. The final outlay about dev fund reflecting the amount of btc raised seemed good too. But then there was this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654463.msg7602355#msg7602355

This was just before the initial distribution. While it was later corrected by SyRenity to reflect the OP; now we have ended up with the same distribution (up to 25% premine for the guys). Now, IMO this amounts to double speak and constant moving goalpost by the team. So I am outta here.

PS: for guys who actually want to invest, at BTC at 650, here's what the whole coin will be worth:
250 BTC = 812,500
300 BTC = 1.02 million
350 BTC = 1.26 million
400 BTC = 1.53 million
450 BTC = 1.83 million
500 BTC = 2.17 million

Now the question is - is the current beta worth that much money? Think and invest.

The unanswered question is how many coins are going to be sold in the IPO.  The OP says 80% of the genesis block.  It does not say how big this block will be.  Total coins to be mined is listed at 100Million.  If the genesis block is a huge 1 million coins, and they raise even 250 BTC for the IPO, that makes each CRYPTI coin worth......25,000 satoshis!!!

Thats quite a high price for a new coin.


SO, what is the size of the genesis block going to be??

Litoshi, the genesis block is listed as 100,000,000 in the whitepaper, it must not have been transferred to the OP correctly when it was re-written for the new updates? It will all be created in the Genesis block and distributed according to escrow. There is no mining and all currency will be created in the genesis block. Hope that clears up that point.

AH Yes.... Now it all becomes clear.  You guys are not setting up another CryptoCoin to be mined and created by miners POW, you are selling COINS that you created out of thin air.

Since these coins are negotiable, and earn interest over time (POS payments) you are actually selling a financial security.  

If you are not registered with the US SEC to do this in the US, you are committing a felony in the US.  

There are also laws to require registration for selling securities in Russia and EU.  

Anybody that would buy these unregistered securities would be a fool.

So, coins that have mining involved are no financial security?

No, PoS secure is very well. If you want to test, send me your test passphrase. I will invite you.

[Litoshi]

I have been following this thread for long. By the first IPO, I was happy with the detailed explanation from Grexx and SyRenity about initial distribution. Why the 15% or the 10% was required etc made sense. The final outlay about dev fund reflecting the amount of btc raised seemed good too. But then there was this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654463.msg7602355#msg7602355

This was just before the initial distribution. While it was later corrected by SyRenity to reflect the OP; now we have ended up with the same distribution (up to 25% premine for the guys). Now, IMO this amounts to double speak and constant moving goalpost by the team. So I am outta here.

PS: for guys who actually want to invest, at BTC at 650, here's what the whole coin will be worth:
250 BTC = 812,500
300 BTC = 1.02 million
350 BTC = 1.26 million
400 BTC = 1.53 million
450 BTC = 1.83 million
500 BTC = 2.17 million

Now the question is - is the current beta worth that much money? Think and invest.

The unanswered question is how many coins are going to be sold in the IPO.  The OP says 80% of the genesis block.  It does not say how big this block will be.  Total coins to be mined is listed at 100Million.  If the genesis block is a huge 1 million coins, and they raise even 250 BTC for the IPO, that makes each CRYPTI coin worth......25,000 satoshis!!!

Thats quite a high price for a new coin.


SO, what is the size of the genesis block going to be??

Litoshi, the genesis block is listed as 100,000,000 in the whitepaper, it must not have been transferred to the OP correctly when it was re-written for the new updates? It will all be created in the Genesis block and distributed according to escrow. There is no mining and all currency will be created in the genesis block. Hope that clears up that point.

AH Yes.... Now it all becomes clear.  You guys are not setting up another CryptoCoin to be mined and created by miners POW, you are selling COINS that you created out of thin air.

Since these coins are negotiable, and earn interest over time (POS payments) you are actually selling a financial security.  

If you are not registered with the US SEC to do this in the US, you are committing a felony in the US.  

There are also laws to require registration for selling securities in Russia and EU.  

Anybody that would buy these unregistered securities would be a fool.

So, coins that have mining involved are no financial security?

Proof of work is not a financial instrument.  Proof of stake means the holder gets paid additional stake for holding.  Same as in a savings account.  

The fact that this is a cryptocoin does not make any difference.  It is a negotiable item, which earns interest, and is being sold by unregistered persons.  It is no different than buying a bond.  

[Secondleo]

I have been following this thread for long. By the first IPO, I was happy with the detailed explanation from Grexx and SyRenity about initial distribution. Why the 15% or the 10% was required etc made sense. The final outlay about dev fund reflecting the amount of btc raised seemed good too. But then there was this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654463.msg7602355#msg7602355

This was just before the initial distribution. While it was later corrected by SyRenity to reflect the OP; now we have ended up with the same distribution (up to 25% premine for the guys). Now, IMO this amounts to double speak and constant moving goalpost by the team. So I am outta here.

PS: for guys who actually want to invest, at BTC at 650, here's what the whole coin will be worth:
250 BTC = 812,500
300 BTC = 1.02 million
350 BTC = 1.26 million
400 BTC = 1.53 million
450 BTC = 1.83 million
500 BTC = 2.17 million

Now the question is - is the current beta worth that much money? Think and invest.

The unanswered question is how many coins are going to be sold in the IPO.  The OP says 80% of the genesis block.  It does not say how big this block will be.  Total coins to be mined is listed at 100Million.  If the genesis block is a huge 1 million coins, and they raise even 250 BTC for the IPO, that makes each CRYPTI coin worth......25,000 satoshis!!!

Thats quite a high price for a new coin.


SO, what is the size of the genesis block going to be??

Litoshi, the genesis block is listed as 100,000,000 in the whitepaper, it must not have been transferred to the OP correctly when it was re-written for the new updates? It will all be created in the Genesis block and distributed according to escrow. There is no mining and all currency will be created in the genesis block. Hope that clears up that point.

AH Yes.... Now it all becomes clear.  You guys are not setting up another CryptoCoin to be mined and created by miners POW, you are selling COINS that you created out of thin air.

Since these coins are negotiable, and earn interest over time (POS payments) you are actually selling a financial security.  

If you are not registered with the US SEC to do this in the US, you are committing a felony in the US.  

There are also laws to require registration for selling securities in Russia and EU.  

Anybody that would buy these unregistered securities would be a fool.

So, coins that have mining involved are no financial security?

No, PoS secure is very well. If you want to test, send me your test passphrase. I will invite you.

You misunderstood me. I was not questioning the security of POS in general or Crypti in particular.
I just wanted to feed the troll

[GreXX]

Jesus 10% per user is a joke. One of them can dump the price to exactly 0.

10% seems really high. See, if around 2 or 3% is considered usually maximum healthy premine on altcoins, why should buy-inn be any bigger?

The 10% number came from our discussions with DGEX. 10% max investment is what they used for their previous managed pre-sale and what they suggested we implement. We decided that we would take their advice and go with the recommended number they chose from experience.

DGEX did it once and it didn't explode. Also, as I assume DGEX will get compensation based on the amount of invested BTC over DGEX, there is a collision of interests.

Should compensation be based on the amount of invested BTC, the 10% is more self interest than interest in the well being of the coin.

You do have a point and one we had to consider. As per the OP I think the DGEX commission they have set is 3% of funds managed. So there most certainly is a self interest in raising a large amount of funds. That being said, as I just mentioned in another comment, I don't think anyone will hit the 10% mark and the previous high they saw was 6% from one investor.

Of course it is unlikely that the 10% mark will be hit, as it is obvious DGEX wants as much BTC invested as possible.
They will suggest a mark that is so high it is very unlikely it will be hit. That way, the maximum amount of invested BTC from every single person can be guaranteed.

And 6% of all coins in the hands of a single investor is a ticking time bomb already.
NXT had and has to face accusations of bad distribution and their top account only held 5% of everyting.

This is something we have thought about long and hard and really don't have a solid answer to. I would love to hear your thoughts on a better way to manage investors. If we limit the max investment per person, and total investment we could get 3 or 4 investors who make sock puppet accounts and invest enough to get large percentages on day 1, cutting out a number of later investors and holding huge proportions of the initial stake. I think setting a total cap allows for a few heavy buyers to buy up the entire supply early on and ultimately limits how many people can participate.

If we don't cap, we can't gauge what the distribution will look like, but as many of you have mentioned, if there is a fear of the price initially dipping and no immediate profits on the exchanges, it's possible some of those investors who thought to buy and dump a ton, knowing they might lose money, will invest less or stay away to an extent.

I feel like its a slippery slope and a tough model to design and all launches are experiments and tests for future launches to maybe come up with a better method. At this point, we have come to a consensus where we are and I feel like it is getting too late in the game to change the numbers.

That being said, it's always something good to talk about and continue to evolve so I would love to hear your ideas.

[Secondleo]

-snip-

Proof of work is not a financial instrument.  Proof of stake means the holder gets paid additional stake for holding.  Same as in a savings account.  

The fact that this is a cryptocoin does not make any difference.  It is a negotiable item, which earns interest, and is being sold by unregistered persons.  It is no different than buying a bond.  

Your interpretation is based on assumptions which don't seem to be true.

I havn't seen any point where crypti is stating to be an inflationary crypto.

If the scheme is similar to NXT, only transaction fees are redistributed. There is no jurisdiction which equals the earning of transaction fees with interest.

[Vega]

Proof of work is not a financial instrument.  Proof of stake means the holder gets paid additional stake for holding.  Same as in a savings account.  

The fact that this is a cryptocoin does not make any difference.  It is a negotiable item, which earns interest, and is being sold by unregistered persons.  It is no different than buying a bond.  

PoS coins do no earn interest. None.
What (potentially) earns you coin if you secure the network. To secure the network you have to have coin.
There is no new coin introduced to the system, the already existing ones only get suffled around.

I'm afraid the only place this resembles a behavior of a bond is in your head.

[Secondleo]

-snip-

This is something we have thought about long and hard and really don't have a solid answer to. I would love to hear your thoughts on a better way to manage investors. If we limit the max investment per person, and total investment we could get 3 or 4 investors who make sock puppet accounts and invest enough to get large percentages on day 1, cutting out a number of later investors and holding huge proportions of the initial stake. I think setting a total cap allows for a few heavy buyers to buy up the entire supply early on and ultimately limits how many people can participate.

If we don't cap, we can't gauge what the distribution will look like, but as many of you have mentioned, if there is a fear of the price initially dipping and no immediate profits on the exchanges, it's possible some of those investors who thought to buy and dump a ton, knowing they might lose money, will invest less or stay away to an extent.

I feel like its a slippery slope and a tough model to design and all launches are experiments and tests for future launches to maybe come up with a better method. At this point, we have come to a consensus where we are and I feel like it is getting too late in the game to change the numbers.

That being said, it's always something good to talk about and continue to evolve so I would love to hear your ideas.

To start out, I don't think the necessary time for a good distribution of this project is left.

To have a really good distribution a lot of work has to be invested into the process. NEM is a good direction to start looking, but they have considerable problems as well.

In any case, to ensure as little possible rulebreakers enter the boat, a multitude of measures are needed.

Things like registering on a website provided by you, gathering IPs, geolocations, blocking tor and surely a lot more.

In the end you can never be sure to filter out everyone going against the rules, but you can make sure whoever tries will have a hell of a lot of work getting past the security measures.

Meticulous sockpuppet removal should always be seen as a long term investment in the project.

@Vega
Actually, some POS schemes pay interest. New coins are created on the basis of coins you already own.

[GreXX]

I have been following this thread for long. By the first IPO, I was happy with the detailed explanation from Grexx and SyRenity about initial distribution. Why the 15% or the 10% was required etc made sense. The final outlay about dev fund reflecting the amount of btc raised seemed good too. But then there was this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654463.msg7602355#msg7602355

This was just before the initial distribution. While it was later corrected by SyRenity to reflect the OP; now we have ended up with the same distribution (up to 25% premine for the guys). Now, IMO this amounts to double speak and constant moving goalpost by the team. So I am outta here.

PS: for guys who actually want to invest, at BTC at 650, here's what the whole coin will be worth:
250 BTC = 812,500
300 BTC = 1.02 million
350 BTC = 1.26 million
400 BTC = 1.53 million
450 BTC = 1.83 million
500 BTC = 2.17 million

Now the question is - is the current beta worth that much money? Think and invest.

The unanswered question is how many coins are going to be sold in the IPO.  The OP says 80% of the genesis block.  It does not say how big this block will be.  Total coins to be mined is listed at 100Million.  If the genesis block is a huge 1 million coins, and they raise even 250 BTC for the IPO, that makes each CRYPTI coin worth......25,000 satoshis!!!

Thats quite a high price for a new coin.


SO, what is the size of the genesis block going to be??

Litoshi, the genesis block is listed as 100,000,000 in the whitepaper, it must not have been transferred to the OP correctly when it was re-written for the new updates? It will all be created in the Genesis block and distributed according to escrow. There is no mining and all currency will be created in the genesis block. Hope that clears up that point.

AH Yes.... Now it all becomes clear.  You guys are not setting up another CryptoCoin to be mined and created by miners POW, you are selling COINS that you created out of thin air.

Since these coins are negotiable, and earn interest over time (POS payments) you are actually selling a financial security.  

If you are not registered with the US SEC to do this in the US, you are committing a felony in the US.  

There are also laws to require registration for selling securities in Russia and EU.  

Anybody that would buy these unregistered securities would be a fool.

So, coins that have mining involved are no financial security?

Proof of work is not a financial instrument.  Proof of stake means the holder gets paid additional stake for holding.  Same as in a savings account.  

The fact that this is a cryptocoin does not make any difference.  It is a negotiable item, which earns interest, and is being sold by unregistered persons.  It is no different than buying a bond.  

Actually, the coin does not earn interest based on stake in the currency. It rewards users for running the network nodes which power the Crypti network. In essence, all transaction fees are being awarded for network generation time. This is a completely different implementation and argument.

Besides, the U.S. government has already declared that Bitcoin and other Crypto Coins are to be considered property and not follow typical financial regulation laws.

[timmyd]

Is it safe to assume that the pre-sale will NOT be starting today?  

Lol looks that way dude.

[GreXX]

Is it safe to assume that the pre-sale will NOT be starting today?   

I think the last I saw was that dgex would be ready at the earliest at 8 on GMT today. I will defer to SyRenity on specifics if we will be 100% ready then but we will let you know soon.

[Litoshi]

Is it safe to assume that the pre-sale will NOT be starting today?   

There is no PRE-SALE.  PRE-SALE assumes that there is subsequent mining. There will not be any mining after the "PRE-SALE".  

There is only a SALE.  ALL the 100 million coins are being sold in the so-called IPO.  

All the income for the devs comes upfront.

There will not be any reason for the devs to support this coin after they get their BTC.

Although, I would not be surprised if they have another SALE with another 100million coins later.


I fail to see why anyone would buy this coin 3 months from now, as it cannot be mined and offers no unique features that you cannot get with other coins.

[SyRenity]

I think the last I saw was that dgex would be ready at the earliest at 8 on GMT today. I will defer to SyRenity on specifics if we will be 100% ready then but we will let you know soon.

I hope you mean that there will be an announcement with specifics in regard to the date and time...  I don't think it's a good idea to start the pre-sale with such a small window between dgex being ready and making the announcement.

We indeed will make sure all is working on dgex, before announcing the pre-sale start.

[SyRenity]

What I mean is...  let's assume dgex and all your test rounds are ready today at 9 GMT...  do NOT make an announcement at 9:30 GMT saying that the pre-sale will start at 10, 11, 12, etc. GMT today...  the announcement should be something like Pre-sale will start on July 9, 2014 at 6 GMT.

Indeed, hence we updated the OP:

Important: we solve last issues with dgex, IPO can little be moved (1-2 days). Wait please.

[stormia]

Is it safe to assume that the pre-sale will NOT be starting today?  

There is no PRE-SALE.  PRE-SALE assumes that there is subsequent mining. There will not be any mining after the "PRE-SALE".  

There is only a SALE.  ALL the 100 million coins are being sold in the so-called IPO.  

All the income for the devs comes upfront.

There will not be any reason for the devs to support this coin after they get their BTC.

Although, I would not be surprised if they have another SALE with another 100million coins later.


I fail to see why anyone would buy this coin 3 months from now, as it cannot be mined and offers no unique features that you cannot get with other coins.

Good lord man give up the trolling. You are trying so hard to find something wrong here, even after your previous complaints have been addressed you just find something new to be pissed about. You don't even bother to read the fucking ANN before you start criticizing it.

Firstly
"All the income for the devs comes upfront.

There will not be any reason for the devs to support this coin after they get their BTC."

If you were smart enough to read the ANN you would have noticed they are vesting their shares over the course of the next year, meaning they don't get their income upfront and must continue to support the coin to get their shares.

"Although, I would not be surprised if they have another SALE with another 100million coins later."

This is just plain stupidity or FUD. The genesis block will contain all of the coins to be issued, they will not simply be able to create another 100 million coins and sell them at a later date.

"There will not be any mining after the "PRE-SALE"."

Right, there is no mining in the conventional sense (PoW). But, that's the whole point of this coin- it offers a new reward system. People can still "mine" the coin after it is released though the PoP, PoT, and PoI systems, although they will be "mining" fees instead of de novo coins.

You look and sound like an idiot who can't even troll effectively, and if you are actually heavily invested in LTC like your handle suggests than you most certainly are an idiot...

[GCInc.]

DGEX mentioned that with their last launch, even with the 10% max per investor cap, the highest investor ended up only buying 6%. They will accept all funds for the entire launch and escrow them. If at the end of the pre-sale, one member has invested an amount that equals more than 10% of the total raised, the amount over 10% will be sent back to that owner. This was decided after much discussion with the DGEX team and I honestly don't personally think anyone will hit close to the 10% mark once all is said and done.

To correct any misunderstandings, I specifically advised Crypti to go lower than 10%. Just by luck and coincidence despite their 10% limit, the FIMK maximum escrow stake was <2% of total currency supply (6% of "IPO") which I consider appropriate. 10% maximum of total currency supply is stretching the limits and I must say I am somewhat disappointed to see that implemented. There just may be whales that are likely ruin the show long term, and it would be wise to prevent that possibility in the rules.

[GreXX]

DGEX mentioned that with their last launch, even with the 10% max per investor cap, the highest investor ended up only buying 6%. They will accept all funds for the entire launch and escrow them. If at the end of the pre-sale, one member has invested an amount that equals more than 10% of the total raised, the amount over 10% will be sent back to that owner. This was decided after much discussion with the DGEX team and I honestly don't personally think anyone will hit close to the 10% mark once all is said and done.

To correct any misunderstandings, I specifically advised Crypti to go lower than 10%. Just by luck and coincidence despite their 10% limit, the FIMK maximum escrow stake was <2% of total currency supply (6% of "IPO") which I consider appropriate. 10% maximum of total currency supply is stretching the limits and I must say I am somewhat disappointed to see that implemented. There just may be whales that are likely ruin the show long term, and it would be wise to prevent that possibility in the rules.

Hey GCInc,

It could be me misinterpreting what got copied over from your communications to our developer board in regards to the 10% number.

Maybe they were just quoting that as the percentage that FIMK used on DGEX?

If it were your launch, what would you personally use? Closer to 2-4%?

[GreXX]

DGEX mentioned that with their last launch, even with the 10% max per investor cap, the highest investor ended up only buying 6%. They will accept all funds for the entire launch and escrow them. If at the end of the pre-sale, one member has invested an amount that equals more than 10% of the total raised, the amount over 10% will be sent back to that owner. This was decided after much discussion with the DGEX team and I honestly don't personally think anyone will hit close to the 10% mark once all is said and done.

To correct any misunderstandings, I specifically advised Crypti to go lower than 10%. Just by luck and coincidence despite their 10% limit, the FIMK maximum escrow stake was <2% of total currency supply (6% of "IPO") which I consider appropriate. 10% maximum of total currency supply is stretching the limits and I must say I am somewhat disappointed to see that implemented. There just may be whales that are likely ruin the show long term, and it would be wise to prevent that possibility in the rules.

BTW, my apologies for the misquote, I hope everyone here understands that it was my error and the 10% shouldn't be attributed to DGEX recommendation.

[GCInc.]

Hey GCInc,

It could be me misinterpreting what got copied over from your communications to our developer board in regards to the 10% number.

Maybe they were just quoting that as the percentage that FIMK used on DGEX?

If it were your launch, what would you personally use? Closer to 2-4%?

No problem there, misunderstandings are common when intermediate parties are involved, just protecting the interest of DGEX customers and a public correction was the right way at this late point

Yes 2% to 4% would be my recommendation based on the experience gained from the previous launches I have been following.