Bitshares-PTS to double/triple in price in the next 45 days!!?

[ChuckOne]

Point is the consensus algo is the same to an extreme extend.

[clout]

Point is the consensus algo is the same to an extreme extend.

The consensus mechanism is approval voting which Nxt does not use. Please see the following thread from the forum:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5205.90

[ChuckOne]

Call it approval voting, call it DPoS, call it delegates, we use different names for it but it is the same in essence.

[clout]

Call it approval voting, call it DPoS, call it delegates, we use different names for it but it is the same in essence.

approval voting is an actual type of voting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting. bitshares and nxt do not use the same voting algo so they do not use the same consensus algo. yes they both use delegated proof of stake (i think nxt calls it leasing) but  the way active delegates/ active forgers are determined is different. originally bitshares was going to use up and down votes for delegates. i don't know the specifics of how forgers are chosen in nxt.

[FriendsOfBitshares]

Point is the consensus algo is the same to an extreme extend.

 I think that the POS variants used by NXT and Bitshares are close enough that we should consider each other allies.  The real opponent at this point is BTC and derivatives. 

NEM/NXT/Bitshares are what I personally have been following.  I'd follow Peercoin too, but I barely keep up with everything going on as it is.  Bitshares though isn't a currency and is a ecosystem/framework to create new things, in addition to the first release which will be the Bitshares X exchange.

[liondani]

Hi ya, yeah I like NXT, Yes I agree, the part about your leased forging needs to be updated. But there's a big difference between 300 or 3000 random accounts and 101 elected delegates. Those 300 accounts could link to very few people.

In BitShares a delegate position is very well remunerated. So people will be fighting over those positions to convince and prove to shareholders they are worthy. So we may well have 101 people spread across the four corners of the globe if shareholders think that's best for the DAC. They can also be voted off easily and even by the system if they delay blocks, don't include transactions etc. it's a very different proposition.

But I'm one of the least technical supporters, I think others could explain it better.

You don't quite understand.

300-350 is the number of forgers who have successfully forged at least one block. But the number of forgers is larger than that, some are just not lucky yet. The number of successful forgers gradually increases with time as the distribution gets more even. For example, 6 months ago there were only 200 accounts that successfully forged blocks (you can verify that with the java code above), now there are 300-350.

There is no reliable way to calculate how many accounts are forging, you can only calculate how many have been successful at that by checking their public keys in the block chain.

Not sure what you mean by 'those 300 accounts could be linked to very few people'. If you mean the Sybil attack, well, can't delegates in BitShares also be linked to very few people? Can't one person run a few nodes? It's not like BitShares ask for government ID and allows to run only one

I understand the way it works in Bitshares now. Just explaining that that link by Daniel has a few things that need to be corrected.

Bytemaster (BitShares founder, Daniel Larimer) made an very interesting analysis that will answer all of us a lot of questions about the pros and cons of every system... It is worth reading...

Green is Income
Yellow is Profit
Blue is Cost

Assuming a fixed validation cost per transaction and a fixed fee per transaction, there is a limit to the amount of decentralization that can take place. 

Assuming the validation cost exactly equals the fee a network is completely centralized and can only afford one validator.
Assuming the fee is 100x the cost of validation then the network can support 100 validators.

What you will quickly see is that systems like Nxt and Peercoin must have very excessive fees if they would like to maintain the illusion that everyone can be a validator and earn fees at scale.    What this means for Nxt / Peercoin is that anyone with less than 1% stake cannot validate profitably unless their fees are higher than our DPOS chain. 

So if these chains assume 100 is to centralized and start promoting they have 1000 validators then their fees must be 10x.  If they grew to be the size of bitcoin ($10 B) then only those with $1M worth of coin could validate profitably and most would consider that an elite club.    If they reduce the minimum stake to be a validator to $1000, then their fees would be 10,000 times higher than our fees.   

Now we assume that every one with less than the amount required to validate doesn't participate and we assume a "reasonable" distribution of wealth, you will quickly see that unless they have insane fees, there will only be a handful of people with enough stake to validate profitably. 

What we can conclude from this is that the only way for POS to work is to delegate it.  In the case of Nxt they can pool their stake by some means and ultimately this will end up like DPOS prior to approval voting with a variable number of delegates.   Those doing the delegating wouldn't actually receive any income like you see with mining pools because the validation expenses will be consuming the vast majority of the transaction fees.

End result is that decentralization has a cost proportional to the number of validators and that costs do not disappear.  At scale these costs will centralize any system that does not support delegation.   We should design this kind of centralization in from the beginning so that it can be properly managed and controlled by the users instead of evolving in some adhoc manner as an unintended consequence.

 

[devphp]

Bytemaster (BitShares founder, Daniel Larimer) made an very interesting analysis that will answer all of us a lot of questions about the pros and cons of every system... It is worth reading...

If this 'analysis' is as objective as the issues I outlined here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=664146.msg7736134#msg7736134
I wouldn't bother with reading it. Besides, it's hard to predict anything in cryptos even if you try to stay objective, everything changes blazing fast.

[FriendsOfBitshares]

Bytemaster (BitShares founder, Daniel Larimer) made an very interesting analysis that will answer all of us a lot of questions about the pros and cons of every system... It is worth reading...

If this 'analysis' is as objective as the issues I outlined here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=664146.msg7736134#msg7736134
I wouldn't bother with reading it. Besides, it's hard to predict anything in cryptos even if you try to stay objective, everything changes blazing fast.

Here is the simple explanation.  If I have a relatively small portion of NXT I will very rarely mine a block.  Therefore, for it to be worth my while, the fees have to be extra high to make up for this.  So for the NXT system work and maintain decentralization, transaction fees have to be grossly inflated or the network has to rely on the good will of the owners of forging nodes.

So the short short of it is NXT/Peercoin need inflated fees to maintain decentralization. 

[devphp]

Here is the simple explanation.  If I have a relatively small portion of NXT I will very rarely mine a block.  Therefore, for it to be worth my while, the fees have to be extra high to make up for this.  So for the NXT system work and maintain decentralization, transaction fees have to be grossly inflated or the network has to rely on the good will of the owners of forging nodes.

So the short short of it is NXT/Peercoin need inflated fees to maintain decentralization. 

It depends on a lot of factors.
Renting a VPS costs $3-5/month (that's the total monthly cost of operating a node that you can forge on).
Your profit from forging needs to be above that for forging to be justified.

But since we don't know how much 1 NXT will cost, how many txs the NXT network will handle, we can't calculate how much in fees forging will bring, and how much in fiat that will translate to. It's all guessing at this point, it all depends on demand for crypto currencies from general population. Hence, no analysis is possible with any reliable degree of accuracy.

[theone1e]

Waiting too long time,it is not responsible for investors.

[XbladeX]

i got some Btishares but i can be even sure that price can even fall acordingg to donate exchange ...
Overal graph looks on down trend to me...
And i know many sytuations where IPO people were losing money...
1st better example maid safe coin IPO 5000 sat now about 3600 sat

[xeroc]

i got some Btishares but i can be even sure that price can even fall acordingg to donate exchange ...
Overal graph looks on down trend to me...
And i know many sytuations where IPO people were losing money...
1st better example maid safe coin IPO 5000 sat now about 3600 sat

You are not seriously comparing BitShares with Midsafe, do you?

Prior to investing there should always be investigation!

[XbladeX]

i got some Btishares but i can be even sure that price can even fall acordingg to donate exchange ...
Overal graph looks on down trend to me...
And i know many sytuations where IPO people were losing money...
1st better example maid safe coin IPO 5000 sat now about 3600 sat

You are not seriously comparing BitShares with Midsafe, do you?

Prior to investing there should always be investigation!

I am talking about IPOs at all they are not guarante price no mater in what you invest - i like technology behind but...
Bithsares raped people in shares graph  and chart is collapsing today with demand it can go high it can go down also. 150BTC per share stake that will be 10x loss  if they would buy today...

Anyway this is best fair IPO i have ever seen serious. - cut overhype part in march

i refer to title: "Bitshares-PTS to double/triple in price" title like that is red light :-)
anywya i back up technology more than price.

[xeroc]

I am talking about IPOs at all they are not guarante price no mater in what you invest - i like technology behind but...
Bithsares raped people in shares graph  and chart is collapsing today with demand it can go high it can go down also. 150BTC per share stake that will be 10x loss  if they would buy today...

Anyway this is best fair IPO i have ever seen serious. - cut overhype part in march

i refer to title: "Bitshares-PTS to double/triple in price" title like that is red light :-)
anywya i back up technology more than price.

neither PTS nor AGS are IPOs .. PTS is an altcoin while AGS were always declared to be *donations*!
No IPO took place at BitShares .. e v e r!

[FriendsOfBitshares]

Here is the simple explanation.  If I have a relatively small portion of NXT I will very rarely mine a block.  Therefore, for it to be worth my while, the fees have to be extra high to make up for this.  So for the NXT system work and maintain decentralization, transaction fees have to be grossly inflated or the network has to rely on the good will of the owners of forging nodes.

So the short short of it is NXT/Peercoin need inflated fees to maintain decentralization. 

It depends on a lot of factors.
Renting a VPS costs $3-5/month (that's the total monthly cost of operating a node that you can forge on).
Your profit from forging needs to be above that for forging to be justified.

But since we don't know how much 1 NXT will cost, how many txs the NXT network will handle, we can't calculate how much in fees forging will bring, and how much in fiat that will translate to. It's all guessing at this point, it all depends on demand for crypto currencies from general population. Hence, no analysis is possible with any reliable degree of accuracy.

No, the average transaction fees can easily be obtained given you are skillful enough.  Someone posted code to walk the blockchain and find the number of wallets that had forged one block.  It would not be hard to take that same code and find the average transaction fee per block found.  The average expectation could then easily be found if someone cared enough to go figure it out.  Accuracy of the analysis could also be measured if one had the proper math skills.

Your analysis however assumes that the labor involved in the upkeep of a node is 0.  Most people value their time to some degree. 

I'm not knocking NXT.  I think they've done a lot of neat things and are continuing to do neat things.  Just because no one cares enough to do the actual full on analysis doesn't make the hypothesis invalid.

[devphp]

It would not be hard to take that same code and find the average transaction fee per block found.

I am not talking about average fees per block. I am talking about how much that would be in fiat in the future, we don't know that. We don't know how much fees per block will be in the future. All this 'analysis' based on past events is not relevant. It could well justify renting a VPS, labor is not a lot, 30 mins per month(?), NXT is already quite stable. Especially funny if someone projects fees based on their testnet, as in the case of BitShares.

[liondani]

i got some Btishares but i can be even sure that price can even fall acordingg to donate exchange ...
Overal graph looks on down trend to me...
And i know many sytuations where IPO people were losing money...
1st better example maid safe coin IPO 5000 sat now about 3600 sat

Exactly it looks like a downtrend... but in reality it is not !!!
Let me explain. Buying BitShares-PTS you don't own only BitShares-PTS but a percentage in future DACs (Decetralized Autononomus Companys)
Imagine someone has bought 1000 BitShares-PTS at 0.014 BTC (14 BTC investment) on Januar ( https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/119 )  and now he has "lost" 50% because the price right now is at 0.007 BTC....
HE DIDN'T LOOSE because he owns now about +650000 BTSX (BitSharesX coins that works with DPOS chain calculated with 2 billion suply) and NOT ONLY the first 1000 PTS...
That means (1000 PTS * 0.007 BTC) + (650000 BTSX * 0.0000170 BTC) = 7 BTC + 11,05 BTC = a total of 18,05 BTC that means a net profit 4.05 BTC (about 30%)
and we don't even have included the profits from a percentage in future DACs !!!  And don't forget that BTSX price is (in my opinion) undervalued because investors are still not very well informed and right now
the "product" is still in the testing phase (Dry Run  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5523.0

[schnötzel]

"..HE DIDN'T LOOSE because he owns now about +650000 BTSX (BitSharesX coins that works with DPOS chain calculated with 2 billion suply) and NOT ONLY the first 1000 PTS...:"

 

If i own some bitshares-pts, how can i get the bitsharesx?

[liondani]

"..HE DIDN'T LOOSE because he owns now about +650000 BTSX (BitSharesX coins that works with DPOS chain calculated with 2 billion suply) and NOT ONLY the first 1000 PTS...:"

 

If i own some bitshares-pts, how can i get the bitsharesx?

If you had your BitShares-PTS at 28 Februar 2014 (the snapshot took place that day and honored all PTS holders) you are a BitShares-BTSX owner too!
If not you will receive your shares from future DACs (until now no snapshots! BitShares-Music,BitShares-ME,BitShares-Insurance,BitShares-DNS and many more in the list to come very soon !!!)

As soon as BitSharesX final chain is out it will be easy to get your BTSX importing your private keys from the "old" PTS wallet...
It will be very easy, more details when BTSX is officialy out (now on testing phase). For now BTSX are available only for trading (not withdrawals or deposits) at bter https://bter.com/trade/btsx_btc
and btc38 http://www.btc38.com/trade_en.html?mk_type=btc&btc38_trade_coin_name=btsx

[schnötzel]

Thanks (even i´m more confused as before  )