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Author Topic: [350 GH/s] "Eligius" (experimental) pool: almost feeless PPS, hoppers welcome  (Read 110197 times)
Luke-Jr
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June 17, 2011, 03:35:04 AM
 #621

For those interested, I've written up a more correct explanation (I hope) on Maximum PPS.

I'm still open to other ideas, if they can be demonstrated to be better. Please write up a wiki page and nominate them on IRC. Wink

"HanSolo", your presence on IRC to discuss PPLNS has been requested by multiple people, if you have time. Smiley

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organofcorti
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June 17, 2011, 05:04:00 AM
 #622

For those interested, I've written up a more correct explanation (I hope) on Maximum PPS.

I'm still open to other ideas, if they can be demonstrated to be better. Please write up a wiki page and nominate them on IRC. Wink

"HanSolo", your presence on IRC to discuss PPLNS has been requested by multiple people, if you have time. Smiley

So from your new explanation, you're saying that this system:
a) reduces variation for miners and eliminates risk for pool operator;
b) will be much the same as proportion with time.

So say I mine for a week non-stop, I'd get very close to what I would have gotten under the old system? How about for a day non-stop? If this works as your explanation suggests and there are no downsides, then I personally have no complaints.

Reducing variability is why we go for big pools and if you can get reduced variability in a smaller pool, then I'm not tempted away to a larger one once a block is taking too long to solve. To me, this is a carrot, not a stick. I'm not relying on luck, since 'luck' is just a post hoc rationalisation of a low probability event.

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martin
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June 17, 2011, 12:52:10 PM
 #623

Now, I go there and it says no stats because I haven't mined for over a week, that's fair enough but shouldn't I have received any coins I mined by now?
Is this your transaction? It looks like you got 0.22btc:

http://blockexplorer.com/address/1DP5XtbkwF3xVoijHXfnq6RQ3fxYKrEp49

How odd, I checked more closely and noticed that my client hasn't been downloading new blocks for quite a while.

Thanks for checking blockexplorer bitcoin0918, I should have thought of that myself  Embarrassed

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June 17, 2011, 04:23:07 PM
 #624

Reducing variability is why we go for big pools and if you can get reduced variability in a smaller pool, then I'm not tempted away to a larger one once a block is taking too long to solve. To me, this is a carrot, not a stick. I'm not relying on luck, since 'luck' is just a post hoc rationalisation of a low probability event.

If I understand it, MaxPPS reduces variability in a way, but you still have to wait for a block to be found to get paid.  So, after you have been mining for a while, you could get to a point where you get 1BTC per day on average, but you still may have a day where you get nothing because a long block is happening.  It's just that if that block gets found after 2 days, you'll get 2 days worth of pay all at once (assuming you have banked some value from previous short blocks).  You "catch up" right away when a long block is found (again, assuming you have been present for some short blocks and have banked some value balance).

I personally think of MaxPPS as more like proportional, just without the pool hopping benefits.  That's a perfectly good thing.  

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bitcoin0918
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June 17, 2011, 05:08:18 PM
 #625

Is EU having problems now? My stats page says 0.00 Khashes/sec, but guiminer reports 440+ Mhash/sec currently.

Update: now the site seems to be working again, but I am still waiting for the reported hashrate to get up to normal. It is currently reporting under 200Mh/s.

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SoreGums
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June 17, 2011, 05:09:43 PM
 #626

so what am i missing with this:
* miner1 does 9 shares, mining the whole time
* miner2 does 1 share then leaves, spent 3mins doing this at the start of the round
* miner3 does 3 shares, working in the last 5mins of this block
* miner4 does 7 shares, mining the whole time, and finds the block after 30mins
* total shares = 20, each share is worth 50/20=2.5
* miners get [9*2.5, 1*2.5, 3*2.5, 7*2.5] after block has 120 confirmations if it turns out to be invalid then shares go into current block solving round

having typed that out, I'm guessing that this is PPS...
how does this promote pool hoping?
if reward is only given after a block is found how is the operator out of pocket?

sorry if this has all been covered elsewhere - most everything else I've read regarding payouts is not as simple as what I have put above
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June 17, 2011, 06:48:11 PM
 #627

so what am i missing with this:
* miner1 does 9 shares, mining the whole time
* miner2 does 1 share then leaves, spent 3mins doing this at the start of the round
* miner3 does 3 shares, working in the last 5mins of this block
* miner4 does 7 shares, mining the whole time, and finds the block after 30mins
* total shares = 20, each share is worth 50/20=2.5
* miners get [9*2.5, 1*2.5, 3*2.5, 7*2.5] after block has 120 confirmations if it turns out to be invalid then shares go into current block solving round

having typed that out, I'm guessing that this is PPS...
how does this promote pool hoping?
if reward is only given after a block is found how is the operator out of pocket?

sorry if this has all been covered elsewhere - most everything else I've read regarding payouts is not as simple as what I have put above

What you described is a transitional proportional payout scheme.  Your payout is proportional to the amount of work that you did for any given block.

In your example, miner1 got 22.5 BTC (9*2.5).  That is 22.5 BTC for 30 minutes of work = 45BTC per hour.

If you compare to an unlucky block that takes 100 times as long to find:

* miner1 does 900 shares, mining the whole time
* miner2 does 100 share then leaves, spent 300mins doing this at the start of the round
* miner3 does 300 shares, working in the last 500mins of this block
* miner4 does 700 shares, mining the whole time, and finds the block after 3000mins
* total shares = 2000, each share is worth 50/2000=0.025

In this example miner1 still gets 22.5 BTC (900*0.025) except this time it took 100 times longer to get it.  Now it was 22.5 BTC for 3000 minutes of work or 0.45 BTC per hour.  Way less per hour because the block was very unlucky.

Traditional Pay-per-share (PPS) is a different system where you get paid by the number of shares you submit regardless of if a block is found.  The payout per share is determined by taking 50/difficulty.

Say difficulty is 20, so the price per share is 2.5 or 50/20.  In scenario 1, miner1 makes 22.5BTC in 30 minutes (9*2.5) or 45BTC per hour.  In scenario 2, miner1 makes 2,250 BTC in 3000 minutes or the same 45BTC per hour.  

In PPS, your pay per hour is always the same even in the short term, but the drawback is that the pool might go bankrupt if there are too many long blocks.  
In proportional, your pay per hour in any given 24 hours varies based on if blocks are lucky or unlucky and the drawback is that pool hoppers skip town on long blocks.  
In MaxPPS, your pay per hour in any given 24 hours may also vary if the pool is small enough that it isn't reliably finding multiple blocks per day, but the variation will lower than in proportional because the pool has withheld some of the payment you would have received from short blocks so that it can pay you more on long blocks.  The benefits are that the pool can't go bankrupt, and there is no longer any incentive for pool hoppers to switch to another pool on long blocks.

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bitcoin0918
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June 17, 2011, 06:52:01 PM
 #628

EU still seems to be underreporting my hashrate by about 100MH/s, with no reported invalid shares. This does not seem right.

Update: And just like that, it's now reporting correctly...

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June 17, 2011, 09:06:35 PM
 #629


that's excellent, thanks for taking the time to go through all that, added it to the wiki for others

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June 17, 2011, 10:29:14 PM
 #630

For those interested, I've written up a more correct explanation (I hope) on Maximum PPS.

I'm still open to other ideas, if they can be demonstrated to be better. Please write up a wiki page and nominate them on IRC. Wink

"HanSolo", your presence on IRC to discuss PPLNS has been requested by multiple people, if you have time. Smiley

Thanks, I'll try to stop by IRC with a clear explanation in the next day or two.. when is 'prime time' for discussion?

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Luke-Jr
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June 17, 2011, 11:21:25 PM
 #631

"HanSolo", your presence on IRC to discuss PPLNS has been requested by multiple people, if you have time. Smiley
Thanks, I'll try to stop by IRC with a clear explanation in the next day or two.. when is 'prime time' for discussion?
Pretty much 1500 to 0300 UTC

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June 18, 2011, 05:44:39 PM
 #632

Luke you really need to make that warning against mybitcoin bigger, i just lost 1btc for the same reason and the bastards refuse to do anything about it...
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June 19, 2011, 09:20:27 PM
 #633

Based on my mining activity with eligius approximately June 13th to June 16th, eligius underpaid me be around 5 BTC.
Approximately half is showing as needed to be paid, the other half is not credited at all.
How did he do it?
1) failing to pay out balance of >1 BTC on us server.
2) Pool split my mining work between eu and us servers, and not paying out the balance on eu server (<1BTC)
3) shorting my reward on rounds shorter than 90 minutes (while not increasing my reward for rounds longer than 90 minutes).

I will edit this post if luke-jr comes clean and pays up this debt.

Aside from shorting me, Eligius is really great, especially the statistics.

I'd recommend it for anyone who doesn't mind getting shorted and being forced to loan the pool money >1BTC.

The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with.
Luke-Jr
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June 19, 2011, 10:00:12 PM
 #634

Based on my mining activity with eligius approximately June 13th to June 16th, eligius underpaid me be around 5 BTC.
Approximately half is showing as needed to be paid, the other half is not credited at all.
How did he do it?
1) failing to pay out balance of >1 BTC on us server.
2) Pool split my mining work between eu and us servers, and not paying out the balance on eu server (<1BTC)
3) shorting my reward on rounds shorter than 90 minutes (while not increasing my reward for rounds longer than 90 minutes).

I will edit this post if luke-jr comes clean and pays up this debt.

Aside from shorting me, Eligius is really great, especially the statistics.

I'd recommend it for anyone who doesn't mind getting shorted and being forced to loan the pool money >1BTC.


The only truth to this is that you have an unpaid balance of 2.49442651 BTC on the US pool, which will be paid out as soon as possible when it is fixed, and an unpaid balance of 0.70262774 BTC on the Europe pool which does not meet the minimums required for payout.

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June 19, 2011, 10:21:15 PM
 #635

Based on my mining activity with eligius approximately June 13th to June 16th, eligius underpaid me be around 5 BTC.
Approximately half is showing as needed to be paid, the other half is not credited at all.
How did he do it?
1) failing to pay out balance of >1 BTC on us server.
2) Pool split my mining work between eu and us servers, and not paying out the balance on eu server (<1BTC)
3) shorting my reward on rounds shorter than 90 minutes (while not increasing my reward for rounds longer than 90 minutes).

I will edit this post if luke-jr comes clean and pays up this debt.

Aside from shorting me, Eligius is really great, especially the statistics.

I'd recommend it for anyone who doesn't mind getting shorted and being forced to loan the pool money >1BTC.


The only truth to this is that you have an unpaid balance of 2.49442651 BTC on the US pool, which will be paid out as soon as possible when it is fixed, and an unpaid balance of 0.70262774 BTC on the Europe pool which does not meet the minimums required for payout.

I'm just saying, if you wanted me to loan or give you BTC you should have asked first.
I appreciate your honesty after the fact, but it doesn't change the situation that you have my coin and I never agreed to loan it to you.

If anyone wants the details on the us server pps shorting, I can compile the statistics, but it should be the same for everyone else who used us server those last few days. In fact if someone thinks they didn't get shorted while the pps was in effect, give me your address and I'll show you how you did get shorted.

EDIT: #3 is referring to the us "maximumpps" reward shorting system implemented over June 13th-16th

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June 19, 2011, 11:53:39 PM
 #636

Hey GimEEE,

I'm not being a smart arse here, but I'm wondering if you realise how the score based system Luke Jr uses works? Ignore my post if you do, but I noticed in your post:
Quote
(while not increasing my reward for rounds longer than 90 minutes).
If you mean the EU server, this is how the score based system works - your shares decay over time, you get the same for longer rounds as shorter ones, and shares contributed at the start of the round are  worth less than those at the end (to try to reduce the value of pool hopping).

Also:

Quote
us server pps shorting

Max PPS ran on the US server for only very short period of time. And even if you did run on it for a while, you might see some short term reduction in payout the value of which you'll get back as soon as US is up.

Luke has been totally open about all this (although maybe not as clear as I'd like) and he has a long history here. I'd trust him to get you your coins if they are missing. If I've misunderstood your post, I apologise in advance.




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bitcoin0918
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June 20, 2011, 12:50:27 AM
 #637

Are all of these invalid blocks normal for most pools? How does that happen? I'm getting a bit confused - for a while there my "unpaid reward" was negative.

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Aconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money?" [contd.]
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June 20, 2011, 02:17:17 AM
 #638

Based on my mining activity with eligius approximately June 13th to June 16th, eligius underpaid me be around 5 BTC.
Approximately half is showing as needed to be paid, the other half is not credited at all.
How did he do it?
1) failing to pay out balance of >1 BTC on us server.
2) Pool split my mining work between eu and us servers, and not paying out the balance on eu server (<1BTC)
3) shorting my reward on rounds shorter than 90 minutes (while not increasing my reward for rounds longer than 90 minutes).

I will edit this post if luke-jr comes clean and pays up this debt.

Aside from shorting me, Eligius is really great, especially the statistics.

I'd recommend it for anyone who doesn't mind getting shorted and being forced to loan the pool money >1BTC.


The only truth to this is that you have an unpaid balance of 2.49442651 BTC on the US pool, which will be paid out as soon as possible when it is fixed, and an unpaid balance of 0.70262774 BTC on the Europe pool which does not meet the minimums required for payout.

I'm just saying, if you wanted me to loan or give you BTC you should have asked first.
I appreciate your honesty after the fact, but it doesn't change the situation that you have my coin and I never agreed to loan it to you.

If anyone wants the details on the us server pps shorting, I can compile the statistics, but it should be the same for everyone else who used us server those last few days. In fact if someone thinks they didn't get shorted while the pps was in effect, give me your address and I'll show you how you did get shorted.

Luke-Jr, with the price a lot higher now than it was when you formed eligius, it seems wise to just lower the automatic payout threshold to 0.1.  This would alleviate the complaint severity of you seemingly "holding" a relatively large amount of people's bitcoins whenever you have to do a server switch. Holding up to $15 for a week on an out-of-operation server is different than holding only $1.50 there.
Luke-Jr
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June 20, 2011, 02:24:06 AM
 #639

Are all of these invalid blocks normal for most pools? How does that happen? I'm getting a bit confused - for a while there my "unpaid reward" was negative.
There was some issues earlier where stale shares were getting past pushpool and being reported as invalid blocks. Usually these would just show up as "stale" and "rejected" on the user's personal page. Other than that, I guess the network's had a lot of forking-lucky blocks lately.

Luke-Jr, with the price a lot higher now than it was when you formed eligius, it seems wise to just lower the automatic payout threshold to 0.1.  This would alleviate the complaint severity of you seemingly "holding" a relatively large amount of people's bitcoins whenever you have to do a server switch. Holding up to $15 for a week on an out-of-operation server is different than holding only $1.50 there.
The plan is to lower it to ~0.34 BTC with the upgrade.

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June 20, 2011, 06:14:36 AM
 #640

Why is the share rejection rate of Eligius for me consistently worse than other pools with LP? I've seen Continuum, Bitcoin Pool, Eclipse, and even bitcoin.cz (which doesn't have LP) all do better than Eligius in this respect.
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