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Author Topic: Is PoS dead?  (Read 16932 times)
jubalix
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June 29, 2014, 10:05:50 PM
 #101

Proof of Stake coins have many issues here are some:

PoS is not backed by anything other than the belief there are worth anything and there will be an endless supply of PoS coins because one created today does not have a significant advantage over on created tomorrow, next week, next month.......
What currently is happening is new coins are created with PoW, mined for a week until a fixed number is reached and then change to PoS and then you can claim your stake at buying xyz coin. The only advantage a coin released today has over on made sometime in the future is; somebody already bought into it. The advantage quickly disappears if the new coin has a better catch phrase a flashier webpage or bigger marketing capital....
There is no end in sight for stake claimed coins and all promising x % return if you know a bit of programming you will have your very one coin too and everyone can buy into your claim based coin completely deluding the marked.
Its a barrel without bottom and once it clicks by the herd run for the hills if you own a stake.  
  
With a PoS the richer get richer. The most significant flaw of any proof-of-stake system and any system that diminishes coin rewards, is it can't distribute currency from the hoarders to the users of the currency, thus it will end up with the hoarders (the banksters) accumulating all the coin and the currency usage dying.
This is because the wealthy spend a much lower % of their net worth than the masses do.


PoS is a technological dead end. Once the coin is released the only thing to do is "claim your stake" no research, no new capital outside the buy in, no evolving industry...

PoS can NEVER remain decentralized. Satoshi's Proof-of-Work is the only known solution to the Byzantine General's Problem (was a known unsolved problem since at least the 1970s).

To 51% PoS is dead easy:
You start buying aggressively or "willy" style until you have 51% of a PoS coin, and then sell off your coins so that you no longer have 51%, but your history of having once owned 51% makes it possible to attack the network at any time in the future at next to no cost only some computing resources (and thus electricity costs, etc.).
As you once had a 51% stake, you can build a better blockchain than the other 49% can, starting from the point where you owned 51%. You develop this blockchain in secret, after you have sold off your coins (and profiting from it); and then release your secret blockchain to the world, and nodes will pick it up because it carries more stake than the 49% blockchain.  Now not only do you have your profit from the original sales of the coin, you have your 51% back (to the extent that it's worth anything).  Not all coins need to be in one address, in fact, doing so would prevent the attack in most PoS implementations.
Unlike bitcoin where everyone can see if anyone comes dangerously close to 51, in PoS its all hidden an attack can happen incognito.
There is no way of knowing if any PoS chain is already "dead", as it could have been done at any-time in the past.
And then there's is also the possible social 51% attack
Quote
..........

But then there's the social 51% attack where a tiny majority hold a massive percentage of the currency. When this occurs the market is open to extensive manipulation for the benefit of the few, as with real world economics (the 1%).

NXT is a good example of the social 51% attack, the top 33 accounts hold 51% between them. The top 50 accounts hold 61.2%. I'm quite sure the top 1% of accounts (400 ish) hold almost everything, with the other 99% playing with spare change. source

  
PoW is backed by energy. There is no better backing than energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it. To create a PoW coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. The best you can hope for is to have  a more efficient miner. Because the energy has been spent, the coin has a base value (many other things on top) and is a kind of a storage medium.



Edit:

Quote
........
The only truly universally accepted wealth is energy (does not matter in which form as it can be converted), and Bitcoin is a store of it.

you really don't get it.

ok firstly pos coins are no more "infinite" than pow coins. It all depends on the parameters you chose. Eg at them moment the number of peercoins being produced is less than LTC and BTC.

secondly the parameters that you choose are all important for any coin, it like the boundary conditions for the navier stokes equations. Eg nothing has the boudary condition of Peercoin, ulike multiple coins that are near exactly BTC.

there is no difference to buying into a mining early or pos coin early how you spend your effort is up to you.

Accordinlgy your arguments do not stand up to logic or the material facts.

As long as a POS coin can function as a distributed ledger then that all it has to do.

POW coins are backed by exactly same belief you decry POS for.

Also wealth is energy when that energy can produce useful work, so has a low entropy. Eg guel can spin an axle to do something for you, farm, drive, move, etc.

Low enthalpy energy like the exhaust heat from and asic is near worthless.

Further you can easily squander energy on projects that have no value. So low entropy energy can be easily squandered on high entropy projects. The possession of low entropy energy is no assurance it will create wealth.


go and do at least thermodynamics 1 and 2 before you make statements about energy use and wealth.







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June 29, 2014, 10:13:26 PM
 #102

Proof of Stake coins have many issues here are some:

PoS is not backed by anything other than the belief there are worth anything and there will be an endless supply of PoS coins because one created today does not have a significant advantage over on created tomorrow, next week, next month.......
What currently is happening is new coins are created with PoW, mined for a week until a fixed number is reached and then change to PoS and then you can claim your stake at buying xyz coin. The only advantage a coin released today has over on made sometime in the future is; somebody already bought into it. The advantage quickly disappears if the new coin has a better catch phrase a flashier webpage or bigger marketing capital....
There is no end in sight for stake claimed coins and all promising x % return if you know a bit of programming you will have your very one coin too and everyone can buy into your claim based coin completely deluding the marked.
Its a barrel without bottom and once it clicks by the herd run for the hills if you own a stake.  
  
With a PoS the richer get richer. The most significant flaw of any proof-of-stake system and any system that diminishes coin rewards, is it can't distribute currency from the hoarders to the users of the currency, thus it will end up with the hoarders (the banksters) accumulating all the coin and the currency usage dying.
This is because the wealthy spend a much lower % of their net worth than the masses do.


PoS is a technological dead end. Once the coin is released the only thing to do is "claim your stake" no research, no new capital outside the buy in, no evolving industry...

PoS can NEVER remain decentralized. Satoshi's Proof-of-Work is the only known solution to the Byzantine General's Problem (was a known unsolved problem since at least the 1970s).

To 51% PoS is dead easy:
You start buying aggressively or "willy" style until you have 51% of a PoS coin, and then sell off your coins so that you no longer have 51%, but your history of having once owned 51% makes it possible to attack the network at any time in the future at next to no cost only some computing resources (and thus electricity costs, etc.).
As you once had a 51% stake, you can build a better blockchain than the other 49% can, starting from the point where you owned 51%. You develop this blockchain in secret, after you have sold off your coins (and profiting from it); and then release your secret blockchain to the world, and nodes will pick it up because it carries more stake than the 49% blockchain.  Now not only do you have your profit from the original sales of the coin, you have your 51% back (to the extent that it's worth anything).  Not all coins need to be in one address, in fact, doing so would prevent the attack in most PoS implementations.
Unlike bitcoin where everyone can see if anyone comes dangerously close to 51, in PoS its all hidden an attack can happen incognito.
There is no way of knowing if any PoS chain is already "dead", as it could have been done at any-time in the past.
And then there's is also the possible social 51% attack
Quote
..........

But then there's the social 51% attack where a tiny majority hold a massive percentage of the currency. When this occurs the market is open to extensive manipulation for the benefit of the few, as with real world economics (the 1%).

NXT is a good example of the social 51% attack, the top 33 accounts hold 51% between them. The top 50 accounts hold 61.2%. I'm quite sure the top 1% of accounts (400 ish) hold almost everything, with the other 99% playing with spare change. source

  
PoW is backed by energy. There is no better backing than energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it. To create a PoW coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. The best you can hope for is to have  a more efficient miner. Because the energy has been spent, the coin has a base value (many other things on top) and is a kind of a storage medium.



Edit:

Quote
........
The only truly universally accepted wealth is energy (does not matter in which form as it can be converted), and Bitcoin is a store of it.

you really don't get it.

ok firstly pos coins are no more "infinite" than pow coins. It all depends on the parameters you chose. Eg at them moment the number of peercoins being produced is less than LTC and BTC.

secondly the parameters that you choose are all important for any coin, it like the boundary conditions for the navier stokes equations. Eg nothing has the boudary condition of Peercoin, ulike multiple coins that are near exactly BTC.

there is no difference to buying into a mining early or pos coin early how you spend your effort is up to you.

Accordinlgy your arguments do not stand up to logic or the material facts.

As long as a POS coin can function as a distributed ledger then that all it has to do.

POW coins are backed by exactly same belief you decry POS for.

Also wealth is energy when that energy can produce useful work, so has a low entropy. Eg guel can spin an axle to do something for you, farm, drive, move, etc.

Low enthalpy energy like the exhaust heat from and asic is near worthless.

Further you can easily squander energy on projects that have no value. So low entropy energy can be easily squandered on high entropy projects. The possession of low entropy energy is no assurance it will create wealth.


go and do at least thermodynamics 1 and 2 before you make statements about energy use and wealth.








Manfred is right....

PoS has Nothing at Stake. There's nothing backing it...

PoW is backed by the energy required to give a new supply of coins.

It's sad to say, but PoS offers nothing over PoW.

The higher energy needed to produce coins, like Bitcoins, is exactly what drives up its value. The coins become rarer, so it needs more resources to produce, and the miners wont sell too far below what it costs to make, which would leave the price at what the miners And buyers determine.

PoS doesnt have that, its only the holders that determine the price. If the top 50 NXT holders decide to dump their 51% supply of all NXT's coins, theres nothing that can be done. The price will drop to whatever they want it to. PoS really is Piece of Shit.

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June 29, 2014, 10:16:34 PM
 #103

pow has nothing at stake, you can mining as many merged coins as you want.

the energy consumed isn't stake its an energy drag.

substitution of mantra for thermodynamics doesn't cut it.

all actions require energy including POS, including the acquisition of pos, but it just does not suffer the drag of pow.



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June 30, 2014, 09:30:22 AM
 #104

PoS has Nothing at Stake. There's nothing backing it...

Crypto is *base money* dorkota.

Base money isn't "backed" by definition  Roll Eyes

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June 30, 2014, 10:06:01 AM
 #105

how is POW backed other than by invested money?

Energy? If you are not mining by energy coming from you heart chakra, than you are paying for bills, and that is all POW is backed by, money you spend on it.

POS is also backed by money. It is just more efficient and smarter. POS just leave out the bullshit and goes straight to the point.

Nothing to die from.


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June 30, 2014, 10:30:20 AM
 #106

POS will be here for some more time.

But its becoming old fashioned now a days after so many coins adopting it.
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June 30, 2014, 10:45:45 AM
 #107

POW - coin with all sea POS won't get interest because of dumping it by centralized minig.
Allso market movers can move POW coin much easier into down trend because supply of new POW coins.

POS coins works more like companies.
51% atack on POS hurts mostly 51% owner so he damage himself in that operation
and he is losing hist POS price so there is something to lose at the end.

To holding some crypto wealth into alts i would chose POS coin definitely more than POW
i hold some rare POW to but POS for me is much more perspective than POW

POS to expand need to develop and be active  while POW just wait on increasing price and i observe that trend last time.
1st pure POS NXT distribution was disappointment just look at volume today...
but next attempt like BC pow mining then pure POS was more successful in therms of market higher volume than NXT almost all time
while NXT is 6x-5x more expensive so it should have 5x-6x more volume at the end.
 
I looking forward what NEM/NODE will bring is like NXT but with much better initial distribution.1000-4000 users at beginning not 72 like NXT IPO...

Lets see what future will bring.


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June 30, 2014, 10:50:46 AM
 #108

POS will be here for some more time.

But its becoming old fashioned now a days after so many coins adopting it.

Only coins with strong innovative core team will survive no matter is POS or POW coin or POT POB POI.

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June 30, 2014, 11:28:04 AM
 #109

I put this thread on "watch", as it is too damn funny to read  Cheesy

- PoS is so dead that Nxt is 3# on coinmarketcap
- The "nothing at stake" vulnerability so big, that no one managed to provide PROOF of a successful attack
- PoS is backed by nothing (I wonder what my PC runs on that forges PoS blocks)? Whereas PoW is backed by wasted energy...?

 I should think of more PoS jokes
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June 30, 2014, 04:02:14 PM
 #110

Please, take a look at the lies that our hero friend Manfred is spreading over LTC forum:

Quote
Re: Is PoS dead?
« Reply #7 on: Today at 11:06:40 AM »
There is the same tread in BTCTalk, which basically is full of nxt trolls. NXT is a ticking time bomb. NXT will always be at the mercy of alias "BCNext". And the original 71 buy-in aliases just got some nxt depending on the proportion of bitcoins they sent.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=303898.msg3253189#msg3253189
As you can see here he received a total of 22 btc. Since it was capped to 1 bitcoin and the biggest amount of nxt received from the buy in is 50 000 000 nxt  (top to accounts) it can easy be worked out how much the others got.
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=30&switch=1
What will never be know how many alias out of the original 71 accounts "BCNext" did create and sent to himself and his mates. You have to strongly assume that he and his friends have the majority of the coins.

The second post is already about police and  the 3rd post got a quote where the original post is missing, hmm oozes confidence . It seems some posts have been deleted.
96% percent of the market it seems is in china (bter) https://coinmarketcap.com/volume.html#nxt

Crypto is all about trust, any bank is  a 1000 times more trusting than "BCNext" and his friends, but greed is a bitch.

Look like he is more comfortable there, where his lies are not so rapidly counterattacked.

In one word: Shameless.
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June 30, 2014, 04:24:45 PM
 #111

PoS is just a way for devs to get rich..premine is easy to hide with PoS

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June 30, 2014, 04:31:28 PM
 #112

Please, take a look at the lies that our hero friend Manfred is spreading over LTC forum:

Quote
Re: Is PoS dead?
« Reply #7 on: Today at 11:06:40 AM »
There is the same tread in BTCTalk, which basically is full of nxt trolls. NXT is a ticking time bomb. NXT will always be at the mercy of alias "BCNext". And the original 71 buy-in aliases just got some nxt depending on the proportion of bitcoins they sent.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=303898.msg3253189#msg3253189
As you can see here he received a total of 22 btc. Since it was capped to 1 bitcoin and the biggest amount of nxt received from the buy in is 50 000 000 nxt  (top to accounts) it can easy be worked out how much the others got.
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=30&switch=1
What will never be know how many alias out of the original 71 accounts "BCNext" did create and sent to himself and his mates. You have to strongly assume that he and his friends have the majority of the coins.

The second post is already talking about police and  the 3rd post got a quote where the original post is missing, hmm oozes confidence . It seems some posts have been deleted.
96% percent of the market it seems is in china (bter) https://coinmarketcap.com/volume.html#nxt

Crypto is all about trust, any bank is  a 1000 times more trusting than "BCNext" and his friends, but greed is a bitch.

Look like he is more comfortable there, where his lies are not so rapidly counterattacked.

In one word: Shameless.

Grazies, now lets talk about lies. Where is a lie? That Crypto is all about trust? Or is it the fact that it is unknow how many coins the BTCTalk alias "BCNext" and his friends and mates have. If you do know a credible link is very much appreciated. Patiently awaiting detailed info lets dig into it.
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June 30, 2014, 04:33:42 PM
 #113

BlackCoin dev has released a white paper where he describes improvements to PoS: http://www.blackcoin.co/blackcoin-pos-protocol-v2-whitepaper.pdf

Apparently the v2 protocol will be implemented to BlackCoin as well.
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June 30, 2014, 05:12:11 PM
 #114

BlackCoin dev has released a white paper where he describes improvements to PoS: http://www.blackcoin.co/blackcoin-pos-protocol-v2-whitepaper.pdf

Apparently the v2 protocol will be implemented to BlackCoin as well.
They are still struggling with things we understood long time ago...    Well, at least they finally got rid of those "coin-days".
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June 30, 2014, 07:14:52 PM
 #115


The whole anti-PoS argument = "it's not perfect"...
Well, it terms of "perfection" Bitcoin is laughable...

But in the Real World "good enough" is all that matters.
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July 07, 2014, 12:29:57 AM
 #116

Dno about PoS, but DPOS is getting born any minute!



http://wiki.bitshares.org/
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July 07, 2014, 12:36:03 AM
 #117

Vitalik Buterin of Ethereum and winner of the Peter Thiel fellowship award ($100k) has an interesting blogpost where he discusses the merits of PoW versus PoS.

Check it out here, https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/05/stake/

He points out Daniel Larimer's TaPos as a promising alternative to PoW.
Daniel Larimer recently improved the idea and developed DPOS, illustrated above.
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July 07, 2014, 02:09:51 AM
 #118

pos/pow hybrid could be best.
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July 07, 2014, 02:28:01 AM
 #119

Vitalik Buterin of Ethereum and winner of the Peter Thiel fellowship award ($100k) has an interesting blogpost where he discusses the merits of PoW versus PoS.

Check it out here, https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/05/stake/

He points out Daniel Larimer's TaPos as a promising alternative to PoW.
Daniel Larimer recently improved the idea and developed DPOS, illustrated above.
This is a kludge. He's trying to solve a complex problem with an even more complex solution. These issues can be done with layers on top of Bitcoin. We don't need to solve all the world's problems today, even if an engineer thinks he can do so. I would really prefer if our best theoreticians and programmers were working on Bitcoin and Colored Coin.

Now, having said that, I think it's a great idea to try. There is plenty of room for many more cryptocurrencies.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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July 07, 2014, 03:05:43 AM
 #120

Vitalik Buterin of Ethereum and winner of the Peter Thiel fellowship award ($100k) has an interesting blogpost where he discusses the merits of PoW versus PoS.

Check it out here, https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/05/stake/

He points out Daniel Larimer's TaPos as a promising alternative to PoW.
Daniel Larimer recently improved the idea and developed DPOS, illustrated above.
This is a kludge. He's trying to solve a complex problem with an even more complex solution. These issues can be done with layers on top of Bitcoin. We don't need to solve all the world's problems today, even if an engineer thinks he can do so. I would really prefer if our best theoreticians and programmers were working on Bitcoin and Colored Coin.

Now, having said that, I think it's a great idea to try. There is plenty of room for many more cryptocurrencies.

That's a good attitude. What do you think about this quote that it might be a good thing to have different chains having separate fates?

Piling every proof-of-work quorum system in the world into one dataset doesn't scale.

Bitcoin and BitDNS can be used separately.  Users shouldn't have to download all of both to use one or the other.  BitDNS users may not want to download everything the next several unrelated networks decide to pile in either.

The networks need to have separate fates.  BitDNS users might be completely liberal about adding any large data features since relatively few domain registrars are needed, while Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.
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