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Author Topic: Is PoS dead?  (Read 16928 times)
dwma
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June 27, 2014, 09:25:14 PM
 #61

Proof of Stake coins have many issues here are some:

PoS is not backed by anything other than the belief there are worth anything and there will be an endless supply of PoS coins because one created today does not have a significant advantage over on created tomorrow, next week, next month.......

Which is the same argument one can use for any POW coin too.  There is just as well an endless supply of any coin.  What decides the number of the coins is the network logic and consensus.  It has nothing to do with method of block production.

Since electricity has to be paid for, endless POW coins mean endless unsecured coins/networks.  You have endless coins with both, just different levels of security.

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What currently is happening is new coins are created with PoW, mined for a week until a fixed number is reached and then change to PoS and then you can claim your stake at buying xyz coin. The only advantage a coin released today has over on made sometime in the future is; somebody already bought into it. The advantage quickly disappears if the new coin has a better catch phrase a flashier webpage or bigger marketing capital....

This has nothing to do with POS or POW.  The same problems apply to POW coins.

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There is no end in sight for stake claimed coins and all promising x % return if you know a bit of programming you will have your very one coin too and everyone can buy into your claim based coin completely deluding the marked.

People have been doing this with premines.  There are even all sorts of ways the guys hustle up premines by botching the mining roll out.

POS allows all manner of interesting distributions.  With POS you can take 50% equity from DOGECOIN and 50% of BTC and create a new coin built on a technology that is not Proof Of Waste.  With POS you can equity-drop to anyone on a forum.  You can try to airdrop on a country.  Any criteria works.  It allows anyone to own coins and not just those who wish to purchase and maintain mining equipment.  Mining equipment costs a lot and is a inherently risky business not knowing if you will hit your ROI.

So what you put forth as weakness is IMO something quite different.

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Its a barrel without bottom and once it clicks by the herd run for the hills if you own a stake.  

No clue what this means.

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With a PoS the richer get richer. Nothing more to add to it that's just how it is.
Completely false.  Miners take fiat to run.  Proof of Waste/Work go hand in hand.  The equipment takes capital.  With POS an innovator can do things.  They can INNOVATE.  Not just coin forks, but all sorts of different things.

POS coins allow innovation in a way not allowed by POW coins.  If you want a Decentralized Application, you're going to be much better off with a POS network than a POW network.  Since miners work by wasting hashes and hashes have to be paid for by electricity this becomes a fundamental economic issue.  You will always have to pay miners to secure your network with POW.  On the other hand, a few VPSs which likely run other tasks are sufficient to secure a POS network.  With POW I can 51% attack any new upcoming network fairly easily.  Once the price drops and the hashers leave, then security is over.  Look at what Bitshares is doing if you want to see how it is being done correctly.  Albeit slowly.

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PoS is a technological dead end. Once the coin is released the only thing to do is "claim your stake" no research, no new capital outside the buy in, no evolving industry...

This doesn't even make sense.  It is true because you say it is ?

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To 51% PoS is dead easy:
You start buying aggressively or "willy" style until you have 51% of a PoS coin, and then sell off your coins so that you no longer have 51%, but your history of having once owned 51% makes it possible to attack the network at any time in the future at next to no cost only some computing resources (and thus electricity costs, etc.).
As you once had a 51% stake, you can build a better blockchain than the other 49% can, starting from the point where you owned 51%. You develop this blockchain in secret, after you have sold off your coins (and profiting from it); and then release your secret blockchain to the world, and nodes will pick it up because it carries more stake than the 49% blockchain.  Now not only do you have your profit from the original sales of the coin, you have your 51% back (to the extent that it's worth anything).  Not all coins need to be in one address, in fact, doing so would prevent the attack in most PoS implementations.

I think with half the market cap of Bitcoin you can more easily take over the network.  This is a completely false argument.  POS is actually more secure than POW.

Also, as coin block production decreases it will give far less incentive to secure the network.  What is going to be the cost of attacking Bitcoin then ?  It will cost increasingly less in terms of fiat.  People will be abandoning mining due to profitability, possibly leaving excess mining equipment on the market cheap.  How can you even begin to argue POW is more secure ?
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Unlike bitcoin where everyone can see if anyone comes dangerously close to 51, in PoS its all hidden an attack can happen incognito.
There is no way of knowing if any PoS chain is already "dead", as it could have been done at any-time in the past.
I

This is actually true.  However, the 51% attack concern is already just as strong for POW coins.  Someone still has to purchase 51% of something just to destroy it.  These attacks can always be solved by forking the 51% out and starting fresh without the malicious actor.  POS people are aware of these things because it is where the innovation is happening.

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PoW is backed by energy. There is no better backing than energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it. To create a PoW coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. The best you can hope for is to have  a more efficient miner. Because the energy has been spent, the coin has a base value (many other things on top) and is a kind of a storage medium.

Someone has to pay for the electricity.  What was this about the "rich get richer?".   It is just a constant arms race that benefits no one but hardware manufacturers and electricity companies.  The environment and the underlying network are the 2 parties that lose out.
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dwma
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June 27, 2014, 09:31:29 PM
 #62


yes i can confirm that for you if you like, PoS as a concept inside a crypto design is DOA, to all intents and purposes.

however "PoS" in the form of p2p lending is is probably the future of a new economic model, that same system and an evolution of crowd funding.

- Re "NXT" please take two things into account:

1. there will always be some suckers
2. you can't know how much is just the original holder sloshing it back and forth amongst themselves (because they IPO'd it to themselves) , i like to tell childlike and naive people that if it literally cost nothing and they own it all, what is the cost to trade it back and forth? - so you can't know how many people have been suckered by these systems and you can't know how much is just "Wall st" style volume trading.*

I mean thats one of the oldest Rat hole "Wall St " scams in the history of being taken for a ride, and people are (seemingly) ha ha ; ) lining up for it. (lots of new accounts support IPOs and PoS systems)

of course this could happen to a degree with ANY crypto, PoW installs a certain cost of course and also secures a certain amount of distribution.

so of course just like "Ripple" et al , and the rest you can ignore them or you can not ignore them it really doesn't matter, the result is going to be the same.

This is one of the better arguments that is for POW.  I could argue how POW doesn't guarantee fairness, only distribution to those wishing to pay for and upkeep mining.

Realize though, that POS can theoretically be as fair as anything possible.  All it requires is an open and public distribution.  The distribution record can even be put on the blockchain of the coin!  Public oversight 100%.  The only downside is everyone has to give up their privacy.  Sad  You can't even begin to do this with POW because POW is not for innovation.
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June 27, 2014, 09:42:18 PM
 #63

What are the costs of performing a 51%-attack in
1) PoW?
2) PoS?

Anyone?

1) Hundreds of Millions.
2) Theoretically nothing, if you discount checkpoints. with checkpoints it's hard.

But then there's the social 51% attack where a tiny majority hold a massive percentage of the currency. When this occurs the market is open to extensive manipulation for the benefit of the few, as with real world economics (the 1%).

NXT is a good example of the social 51% attack, the top 33 accounts hold 51% between them. The top 50 accounts hold 61.2%. I'm quite sure the top 1% of accounts (400 ish) hold almost everything, with the other 99% playing with spare change. source

I think that's why you see so many NXT shills trying to ram it down everybodies throats on this forum.



First of all, Nxt is somewhat resistant to 90% attack of the underlying system. Because in order to build the longest chain, a 90% attacker would have to perform a whole lot of hashes to figure out which chain was the longest one in advance, that also excluded the blocks of all other forgers.

We're talking 10^100 hashes or something in that range... probably much, much higher.  Those would have to be done within about 12 hours time.  Considering that it would take the entire Bitcoin network, by far the biggest source of hashing power, approximately 2^75 years to calculate that.. I'm not all that worried.

Certainly, the more decentralized the better when it comes to crashing the price but.. if you consider Nxt like a stock, it is much more decentralized than that of any big company out there that I know of.

In Bitcoin, 2 or 3 guys could gang up and take down Bitcoin or hold it hostage when it gets big enough..  imagine once Bitcoin grew to be US dollar sized and 3 guys could threaten to take down the network(or be hacked or a terrorist organization threatens them by saying they'll kill their kids, or whatever) in Nxt, you'd need 33 accounts to do so?  And even then, you'd knock out some of Nxt's cooler features but the main network features could still continue to run even against that attack. And not only that but it is getting better distributed with time, I think the constant downward pressure on the price is proof of that as those with big accounts are continuing to cash out over time.

In Ripple's case, yeah I stayed away from Ripple once I heard that the company held onto 90+% of the stock.. but in Nxt's case, I just don't see it as that big of a risk.

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June 27, 2014, 10:10:51 PM
 #64

What are the costs of performing a 51%-attack in
1) PoW?
2) PoS?

Anyone?

1) Hundreds of Millions.
2) Theoretically nothing, if you discount checkpoints. with checkpoints it's hard.

But then there's the social 51% attack where a tiny majority hold a massive percentage of the currency. When this occurs the market is open to extensive manipulation for the benefit of the few, as with real world economics (the 1%).

NXT is a good example of the social 51% attack, the top 33 accounts hold 51% between them. The top 50 accounts hold 61.2%. I'm quite sure the top 1% of accounts (400 ish) hold almost everything, with the other 99% playing with spare change. source

I think that's why you see so many NXT shills trying to ram it down everybodies throats on this forum.


In Bitcoin, 2 or 3 guys could gang up and take down Bitcoin or hold it hostage when it gets big enough..  imagine once Bitcoin grew to be US dollar sized and 3 guys could threaten to take down the network(or be hacked or a terrorist organization threatens them by saying they'll kill their kids, or whatever) in Nxt, you'd need 33 accounts to do so?  And even then, you'd knock out some of Nxt's cooler features but the main network features could still continue to run even against that attack. And not only that but it is getting better distributed with time, I think the constant downward pressure on the price is proof of that as those with big accounts are continuing to cash out over time.

Bitcoins top 100 accounts (including the big bitstamp one and the seized coins) constitute 20%, the top 500 32%.

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June 28, 2014, 01:10:02 AM
 #65

Pure PoS was never good idea, but in combination with other Proofs it can be good to enchance security.
dwma
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June 28, 2014, 01:18:39 AM
 #66

Pure PoS was never good idea, but in combination with other Proofs it can be good to enchance security.

Do you have actual reasons for saying this ?
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June 28, 2014, 01:27:29 AM
 #67

Pure PoS was never good idea, but in combination with other Proofs it can be good to enchance security.

Do you have actual reasons for saying this ?

Yea, NXT shows how stupid pure POS is. 3 people get 100% of a coin..that's what happened to NXT, making those 3 people instant multi millionaires and everyone else gets jack squat.

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June 28, 2014, 01:51:41 AM
 #68

Pure PoS was never good idea, but in combination with other Proofs it can be good to enchance security.

Do you have actual reasons for saying this ?

Yea, NXT shows how stupid pure POS is. 3 people get 100% of a coin..that's what happened to NXT, making those 3 people instant multi millionaires and everyone else gets jack squat.

So some people got rich by taking a risk and making a good investment. I'm so sorry it wasn't you mate better luck nxt time.
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June 28, 2014, 02:01:52 AM
 #69

Pure PoS was never good idea, but in combination with other Proofs it can be good to enchance security.

Do you have actual reasons for saying this ?

Yea, NXT shows how stupid pure POS is. 3 people get 100% of a coin..that's what happened to NXT, making those 3 people instant multi millionaires and everyone else gets jack squat.

So some people got rich by taking a risk and making a good investment. I'm so sorry it wasn't you mate better luck nxt time.

Yea so 3 people get rich. And everyone else gets dirt poor as those 3 people can just dump whenever they want...That makes sense...you're a complete fucking idiot btw.

and that's the reason NXT will never go anywhere.

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June 28, 2014, 03:24:41 AM
 #70

Just a social experiment. BTC and NXT  have their own advantage and have their own diadvantage too.

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June 28, 2014, 08:35:25 AM
 #71

and here comes Bitshares.... I would like someone to compare them to NXT and Bitcoin once they are released...

Bitshares is the first DPOS using TITAN and was build from scratch... No premine whatsoever.. Investors burned a lot of Bitcoins and still burn a lot of bitcoins and PTS to get stakes in future DACs that have one purpose and are designed by protocol for one reason "to make Profit".

No one could ever blame Bitshares for not a fair distribution. Everyone had more than 270 days to invest. Initial investors obviously will make bigger profits and it is the most decentralised "stock" out there...

The bottom line is that PoW and PoS should not compete. All coins are part of this exciting new industry and should collaborate to grow at their most potential..

Bitcoin is the guardian of all cryptos now. Whales should diversify and slowly move away and evolve in other PoS more eco friendly such as NXT.

PoS coins and particular NXT whales should hold and embrace the transition. They should not massively dump their coins once new investments come in as this creates FUD and NXT will not reach its full potential.

Bitshares should become the guardian of all cryptocurrencies even bitcoin's. A decentralised Bank secured by protocol, DNS, Lotteries and fun in crypto, IPOs and privatisation of money.

You should stop compete but rather focus on gaining more mainstream adoption. Imagine if NXT suddenly has $1 bil market cap.Sure the devs will become very rich people but this would attract much more new investors. Outside crypto world people know only bitcoin...They must learn about all other strong coins as well.. 
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June 28, 2014, 11:33:55 AM
 #72

POS is nothing more than a ponzi scheme piece of shit

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June 28, 2014, 11:43:36 AM
 #73

POS is nothing more than a ponzi scheme piece of shit

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June 28, 2014, 12:41:32 PM
 #74

PoS = Proof of Stupidity
Yes you are right its a fool finding bigger fool system and all of it can run on bitcoin side chains.

The only truly universally accepted wealth is energy (does not matter in which form as it can be converted), and Bitcoin is a store of it.

You're called PoS? lol

Anyway, PoS as specified and implemented by sunny is rather good.

PoS used as an excuse to premine and make a few rich, or as an "after thought" to make a few early adopters hold the bulk of the coin, well that's not good.

I think we could make this simple, any coin who takes any step to ensure distribution is not fair, is not a fair coin, and is in a very gray place. Which is almost all of the coins. LTC, BTC, PPC and a few others are fair, the rest, well they just have no longevity.

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June 28, 2014, 12:59:37 PM
 #75

i prefer security over inflation any day.
no pos for me thanks
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June 28, 2014, 01:08:48 PM
 #76

Pure PoS was never good idea, but in combination with other Proofs it can be good to enchance security.

Do you have actual reasons for saying this ?

Yea, NXT shows how stupid pure POS is. 3 people get 100% of a coin..that's what happened to NXT, making those 3 people instant multi millionaires and everyone else gets jack squat.

Something like that. Problem is always distribution.
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June 28, 2014, 01:38:39 PM
 #77

PoW is dead
ondratra
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June 28, 2014, 01:38:46 PM
 #78

Pure PoS was never good idea, but in combination with other Proofs it can be good to enchance security.

Do you have actual reasons for saying this ?

Yea, NXT shows how stupid pure POS is. 3 people get 100% of a coin..that's what happened to NXT, making those 3 people instant multi millionaires and everyone else gets jack squat.

Something like that. Problem is always distribution.

I don't see how thats a problem you can still instamine POW coins and if you speak about a fair distribution then were can i get a  200MH/s Scrypt asci right now ?
http://minerdesk.com/vaultbreaker-the-worlds-first-500mhs-scrypt-miner/

Sure even PoW can be "fixed". But PoW != scrypt. And finally you can always found your own company developing mining gear and be among the first having new level equipment.
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June 28, 2014, 03:34:40 PM
 #79

PoW is dead

pow will never die, its the only thing holding the initial value of a coin.
unlike pow , pos is only maintained by belief that the certain coin price will continue to rise.
never bought a pos coin, and never will, its only made to make 1% ppl rich
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June 28, 2014, 04:33:01 PM
 #80

Neither PoW or PoS is perfect. But as a miner I do know this:

* Most of the investment in PoW coins ends up in the pockets of chip manufacturers and electricity companies.

* Nearly all of the investment in PoS coins stays in the coin ecosystem and benefits all holders.
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